HEATED DEBATE: Jerry Krause GOOD or BAD for the Chicago Bulls? | THE Chicago Sports Podcast

HEATED DEBATE: Jerry Krause GOOD or BAD for the Chicago Bulls? | THE Chicago Sports Podcast

Well to set this up uh please to set this up Jack you are a big Jerry Krauss fan right and yeah absolutely and Karm not so much so I think this might make for some good podcasting here well Jack let me ask you something what particularly do you think that Jerry did

Well what let’s just start there I want to I want to know what do what do you think his best attribute as a general manager was let me ask you this let me ask let me answer your question with a with a question okay all right I just want to

Talk a little bit about Jerry Krauss and and think a little bit about him okay when he arrived in 1985 as GM the only person who was on the team who won a championship as a player or coach was MJ and obviously that is that there’s the asteris right that’s the huge enormous

He he got everybody but Michael which is like saying I you know built a house without doors and walls and I I I get that absolutely but I think we all agree that the Bulls were great because they were a great team and it wasn’t just Michael we would have

Eventually won one two three we would not have won six Jerry got everybody from the top down right below MJ Jerry hired Phil Jackson at a time when Phil Jackson Was preparing for his life after basketball he thought his career coaching was over and he had to do

Something else Jerry brought him in he brought in Tex winter whose offense became the foundation for 11 of 20 NBA championships M he won six NBA championships as a GM which is more than RC Buford or more than RC Buford and Greg poage it’s more than Bob Meyers it

Is more than everybody except for red Arbok and Jerry West he’s one of six banners hanging in the United Center for the Bulls along with Jerry Sloan Bob Love Phil Jackson Michael Jordan and Scotti Pippen and he’s in the Hall of Fame so Karm if what I just named is not

A good GM if what I just named is a bad GM then what is a good GM so listen what who was a who was a better player love this who’s a better player will Purdue or Wilt Chamberlain will Purdue got four rings Jack wilts got two I don’t think we can

Just count the Rings but you know that that but you know that that’s a silly thing to say especially in public right as what are you saying that is better I’m Jack’s doing hold hold you know you know that that’s a silly you know that that’s a silly thing to say right in

Public because Will Chamberlain is the best player on his team and will Purdue was a backup center they’re not judged in the same way so you know that that’s a silly thing to say well but but the point is that J everybody likes to argue the six rings for Jerry and the whole

Point that I made the entire time that he was the GM of the Bulls is that if he didn’t have Michael he would never win anything and when Michael left he didn’t win anything and was fired by his bestie owner who didn’t want to get rid of him because he won

Nothing if you go back in time let’s go from the beginning here Jack 1985 his first draft he gets all this credit for picking Charles Oakley in a skure power forward at nine overall who I’m just going to go ahead I’m just going to go ahead and preempt you not great in the

Draft let’s move on not great in the draft which is the main thing that he does he was considered the sleuth for talent evaluation I’m not going to allow you just to throw that down because I don’t think people realize how bad he was in

The draft he had one good draft in his career and by the way he didn’t want to take Horus Grant he wanted to take Joe wolf and they had to plead with him to take Horus Grant by the way Reggie Miller Hall of Famer went next he drafted one perennial Allstar Jack what

Are we going to do with Reggie Miller when Michael Jordan is your two guard now you sound like the Portland Trailblazers who had Clyde Drexler and didn’t draft Michael play Reggie what do you mean what are we going to do with him we’ll put him at we’ll put him at

Point guard we’ll put him at the three he’s going to shoot wide open shots and be a Kingpin you pick the better player do you not but so and and and and Horus Grant wasn’t the better player for that team well okay if that if you want to

Nitpick like where you would put him that’s not nit that’s not nitpicking all Horus Grant Horus Grant was an Allstar he was a great defender how many wait hold on how many horse is a good player I love horse but again that was his one good draft Oakley

Ahead of Malone in the second round by the way he picked Ken Johnson Ty Corbin hot rod Williams Jared Wilkins every single year if you look at his drafts literally like the the next five players or the somewhere in the next five players drafted someone was better it’s

86 he takes Brad cers John Sally went two picks later in the second round he took Larry choak 28 next player Johnny Newman Nate McMillan Kevin Duckworth went 33 Jeff Horn SEC went 46 how good would he have fit on the Bulls people love right down the road it would it

Would have been perfect people look at him and they give him credit for well he found John Paxton he found Steve Kirk these guys would never have been anything without Michael that they were the they were absolutely a Charles Oakley for Bill carite that trade doesn’t work I would I would say that

What benefited those guys Beyond Michael obviously everyone benefited from playing with Michael but the specific thing that benefited those guys Steve Kerr Bill cartright Ron Harper Jud bushler Tony kach the specific thing that benefited those people was the Triangle offense because it allowed everyone to be involved and that comes

From Tex winter okay so you can you can do are you prepared to do this with Bob Meers are you prepared to do this with RC Buford are you prepared to do this with Pat Riley you can do this with literally every GM I I Jim Jim FX Jim Fink didn’t pick

Joe Montana but still want a Super Bowl we so listen we we I’m not prepared to have go through every one of their resumes right now it took me an hour to to to prepare for that but look I just you the the you can point to the

Triangle and you can point to Phil and you can point to text and I give him credit for that Phil Jackson was a hell of hter now the Bulls like to stand up there and say that Phil Jackson would never have been discovered if it weren’t for Jerry Krauss I don’t personally

Believe that I think somebody would have taken a chance on Phil Jackson but the bottom line is the Bulls did so I do give him credit for Phil and I give him credit for Doug Collins Doug Collins was a good hire he worked at the time it

Didn’t end up well for whatever reason but by the way they weren’t running the triangle offense at that time too and people who could shoot the ball outside of Michael still looked good Sam Vincent looked good with the bulls so did so did PA at that time so did Craig Hodes so

Did you before they all any it was it just wasn’t very hard to figure out that if I put somebody who can shoot next to Michael because they’re double teaming that it’s going to work that’s that I don’t I don’t give you a your statement what is your statement on Jerry Krauss

Jerry my statement my my statement is this he he he was a bad Talent evaluator and he had an incredible disgusting small man’s complex that he starved for the credit to the point that he poisoned the entire run and he ended it because of his incredibly inflated ego

And there was no reason that it needed to be to go the way that it went I don’t know if they would have wed 99 but I wouldn’t have bet against him and the to come into the 98 season and and say if you go 82 and0 to Phil Jackson you’re

Not coming back and to in essence end the dynasty over Tim Floyd over T is is ridiculous is absurd he should have been fired and by the way the one thing I didn’t mention yet he tried to trade Scotti Pippen before the second three for Shawn Kemp David Kaplan ran into

Some dude in the elevator who was Kemp’s agent he like well I’m going to be seeing a whole lot of you more and it got W back to the Sonic own he he tried he tried to trade PPP and after that as well he had a deal that the Clippers

Backed out of in February of 95 right before Michael came back right he nearly cost him three titles Jack true so so I don’t so I why are your point your point is that you don’t like Jerry Krauss and therefore Jerry krauss’s flaws are greater than his strengths that’s your

Point uh your point can I throw more a couple more of his strength right my point my point is that he’s k your point Karm is that Jerry Krauss is a crummy guy who was mean and a bully and soil things I want to read you I want to read

You a little something this is from Scotty Pippen’s Memoir unguarded surpr better than I was expecting here here here’s what I want to read you go do you think do you think Scot pipp sold more books or more bottles of bourbon by the way um way I don’t know but after

Reading the book I drink the bourbon um all right this this is what he says I realize now that plenty of times when Michael and I were critical of Jerry Krauss we should probably have pointed the blame at Jerry reinsdorf reinsdorf made the important business decisions not Krauss rydor refused to renegotiate

My contract year after year not Krauss Rin dorf owned the Chicago Bulls not Krauss I think that the biggest damaging impact of Jerry Krauss down the stretch is what it did to Sully the bull’s name and the Bulls brand with future players we should have been able to regenerate

The way that the Miami Heat now have done or the way that the Lakers always did and instead we were immediately putting a cap on the Goodwill of the organization and that’s more important to me than the question of oh could we have drafted you know Sean Kemp or

Michael Finley or could we have done this in 99 you know we won six titles I’m not really I don’t sit here as a as a Chicago fan and go gez the seven title I didn’t get I think about how lovey Bears broke down I think about how the

Cubs only W one the White Sox only W one the sky only W one I think maybe about that the Hawks didn’t go back to back because that’s so much fun I think obviously about the 85 Bears not you know winning 86 88 but I don’t spend a

Lot of time thinking boy the greatest team of my life could have been in one ring better if da d d da what I do think about Game season yeah what I do think about is what Jerry reinsdorf allowed to fester in his organization and how that

Sullied free agents and big players down the road all the way to the summer of 202 summer of 2010 when Dwayne Wade was on the record saying look we look at that organization we say Where’s Michael where’s Scotty this is something that we weigh and this is a Chicago guy who now

Has a statue in Miami those are the things I think about when I think about that team Jerry Krauss what did he do what did he ever do well he traded will Purdue for jennis Rodman he traded Stacy King for Luke Longley he rebuilt one three Pat into another three pat on the

Fly in 18 months he came up with Brian Williams when we needed somebody he came up with Horus Grant and Scotti Pippen in the same draft I don’t care you get you get credit for you’re there you’re in the big seat you get you get the credit

So the idea of like well Jerry Krauss blah blah blah blah listen do I agree with you that Michael Jordan is more important than Jerry Krauss yes I do do I agree with you that Jerry Krauss could be an absolute bully and a jerk to people he didn’t like and unnecessarily

Pushed off people that he didn’t like yes I do he went in 1965 to run a AAA affiliate of Cleveland Indians called the Portland beavers and was fired in less than a year for what was called a personality conflict he came in with dick Ma and Dick ma sent

Him packing After Dick ma left he had a second stint with the bulls in 1976 and in his first week made enemies with Ray Meyer by accidentally offering Ray Meyer the job of Bulls head coach and then saying sorry never mind I never said that and he was fired in less than a

Year Jerry chry Jerry Krauss has pissed people off everywhere he has gone in 1990 before any titles benjer of the reader wrote this great profile called nobody cheers for Jerry Krauss this is not like big news that Jerry Krauss is a surly man he even possibly made up the

Fishing story about Tim Floyd so there are there are a lot of issues there I agree with them all but the point is he built a team that won six titles how did he do it what is he responsible for I don’t really care to get nitpicky on six

Championships Jack we listen I appreciate the conversation we I think we can get to a point where we both agree if you’ll agree with this do you do you agree that if Jerry Krauss never had Michael Jordan the you the overwhelming evidence would tell you that he never would have won one title

Would you agree with that the overwhelming evidence would see it would be sure I’ll give you that I mean that’s the hypothetical that’s the hypothetical of hypothetical what I I can leave that’s fine as long as we can agree on that the dude want to want [ __ ]

Without MJ which is why the fact that he what he did to the organization which you just underlined by the way you don’t have to clip anything I said from this whole thing you just outlined my argument for me better than I did that was fantastic so look which is why I’m

Bothered by the dude he star for credit do you agree do you agree Karm do you agree that the Bulls won six championships and not four and not two because of the moves that Jerry CR no no I don’t because if you because well that’s ridiculous well it’s but

It’s not that’s a ridiculous thing to say do we win six championships without Phil Jackson Hold on listen Russell won do we win six championships without Phil Jackson I I listen I I don’t hold it I don’t hold come now I answered your question straight up we win six Champion

I’m trying to Jack I’m trying to answer the question I I I don’t I don’t hold that Phil Jackson was the only guy in the world that could have coached Michael to six rings I don’t I think there’s a lot of dudes I you you tell me

That Greg papovich is coaching that team do they do they go and win six titles I’m pretty okay so one of the other greatest coaches of all time well whatever give give me Eric spoler give me give me anybody who can under would Doug Collins have done it he would have

Won some I Doug was Doug was a little crazy Doug Doug was a lot crazy so Doug Doug had his personality challenges Doug wasn’t going to were we going to do it with Stan albeck were we maybe maybe at least I I I like I I don’t know I they were as far

As you’re throwing Phill Jackson out right now I’m just what I hear is you’re taking a guy who is arguably the greatest head coach in NBA history and you’re taking the general manager who pulled him back into basketball when he was preparing his life after hoops and you’re sitting here

Saying that this guy is no bearing on the fact that we have the biggest bragging rights of all sports fans in America when we’re growing up is that what you’re saying well look I all I’m saying is that Michael was so damn good that I’m not going to I’m not going to

Sit here and say that he wouldn’t have won without Phil that’s all I’m saying now how many would he have won I don’t know how many would he have won well look I I think if they had done it right let’s just say for argument sake that

They had drapped we didn’t do it right we won six championships that wasn’t right how long did it take them to win how many years did it take them to win seven freaking years should it have taken seven years with the greatest player of all time by eight miles I

Don’t think it should have he if he had done anything in the draft other than draft Scotti Pippen they would have won earlier what happens if he had drafted Carl Malone instead of Charles Oakley in 1985 how quick would we have won would we have gotten B he only Jack he needed

One Malone who never won a championship he would have woned with Mike who folded who folded who folded in some of the biggest games he ever played not Jord took the ball from not go ahead not to men not to mention not to mention the fact that Scotty Pippen is a uniquely

Perfect pairing for MJ because he can guard the guys who MJ’s going to guard he can handle the ball when MJ is not wanting to handle the ball I was gon to say like Jerry who else built like before Michael Jordan every championship team was built

Around a big right it was never done around a two guard Krauss did that you didn’t have those athletic three fours Scotti Pippen was an was a 4Runner be before all that Jerry Krauss got into Europe before a lot of scouting did like yeah he was Phil told him to go draft

Deot and he and he blew it on V and then he found Tony the next year and everybody loves to give him credit for Tony which was he gets get get some I never made an All-Star team but you’re not giving him credit for anything I’m giving him credit for pipping I’m giving

Him credit I I he had one great draft and I’ll I’ll you want to give him credit for Horus after being talked into that’s totally fine he did it I I give him credit for that draft that draft was amazing I’m not giving him credit for will Purdue for Dennis rman anybody

Would have traded will Purdue for Dennis rman and it wouldn’t have worked without Michael you needed Michael to deal with Dennis and go run him down in Las Vegas in his bedroom with Carmen Electra that would have been a disaster on any other team but he respected MJ so it worked

Here it wouldn’t have worked without Phil Jackson Phil it wouldn’t have worked without one of Dennis’s favorite people in the organization teex winter okay so so let’s do a pie chart let’s do a pie chart how much do you how much what what percentage of the bull titles do you give to

Michael 60% okay okay 60% and what do you give to Phil yeah I mean all right so maybe so maybe Michael’s not all right so yeah maybe Michael’s not 60 maybe Michael alone is 50 and maybe Phil is 30 we’re going to run out of slices

Here in a second I understand I I got it like look I’m just saying that for me it’s not 5030 it’s it’s if we’re if we’re good compared just if we just did Michael and Phil how much did Michael his talent and his ability to do what he

Did and Phil I’ll you want to give Phil 10% I 100% okay I’ll give him 10 that’s that’s that’s all I’m giving him um so and I listen the other thing with Phil too that doesn’t get talked about which bother me and we don’t have to talk about this for eight more hours

Because I could do it for eight more hours Phil this is the most passionate I’ve ever seen Karm in his two years of working Phil well this is this is this is my childhood this is the core of me and we’re in it right now Phil left man

Jerry rorf came to him at the end and said will you stay he made one last Sal at him and Phils like I’m out of here I’m riding my motorcycle off whatever he had personal stuff going on at the time and he left so I don’t think Phil gets

Enough blame for walking out the door at the very end now it would have been I agree with that the the the the Bulls splintered across several different fault lines Jerry Krauss was a problematic Personality like the mayor

Sports Historian Jack Silverstein joined THE Chicago Sports Podcast and things almost immediately got heated between him and Mark Carman after a sensitive cord was struck: Jerry Krause’s place in the success of the Chicago Bulls.

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