6 BIG Questions the Chicago Bulls Must Answer Ahead of the Trade Deadline | CHGO Bulls Podcast

6 BIG Questions the Chicago Bulls Must Answer Ahead of the Trade Deadline | CHGO Bulls Podcast

Hello everyone and Welcome to our special free trade deadline edition of the chgo Bulls podcast HQ Edition with me your host will gotle at willg on Twitter and my good mate who’s sipping his coffee because it’s bright and early there in Australia MK Hoops on Twitter

Mark sorry about the beeping if you can hear that in the background there’s a Truck moving by but that’s not going to stop us because this is my favorite 24 hours of the year how about you uh it’s it goes close I think the the leadup to agencies might be a little

Bit Yeah the drafting it’s like it’s definitely in the top three whatever order it is you know the the draft is dependent on where your team is situated within said draft but free agency there’s generally always something happening this deadline I’m not convinced it’s going to be a big

Deadline more generally let alone for the Bulls so of course that could dramatically change um but yeah it’s up there the point is this is a good time of year for us basketball heads it’s a maybe a frustrating year or time of year for our sports fans but um let’s wait and see

There’s less than 24 hours maybe something amazing happens that we’re not predicting or seeing but who knows William it could happen yeah not too much on the trade front so far just quickly run through the the moves that we’ve had today it’s only been three uh Utah Jazz traded Simone fono to the

Pistons for a very high second round pick I think it’ll be the probably 32nd pick in the draft it’s uh via the Wizards from the pist uh the Memphis Grizzlies traded Center Xavier Tilman to the Boston Celtics for two second round picks and most recently the Detroit prisons sent Monte Morris to

The Minnesota Timberwolves Kobe white just beat them down last night so hard that they needed to trade for a backup point guard but that’s it and I think you kind of hit the nail in the head as far as this deadline being kind of a quiet one a combination of you know

These new rules making it pretty difficult for teams to sell picks um the combination with that with you know so many teams being in the playin race and that really feeling uh giving teams this feeling that they can be contenders that they don’t need to be sellers um and

Then on top of that you’ve got all these teams that have already traded all their picks away I mean the teams like the Bucks have zero picks to trade in the first round they’ve got a second rounder via Portland which could be a mid-30s

Pick which is not bad but as far as like real substantial moves that can make their team better for this season you know the options are just kind of limited so not expecting too much on the trade front in general maybe even less so on the Bulls we can maybe talk about

Some of the the rumors that have come out today if you want but uh your idea for our conversation was to hit on some big questions that the Bulls are facing here with less than 24 hours remaining you want to just give a brief sort of

Rundown on uh what it is we’re gonna be talking about today well it’s just look to be fair it’s the same old stuff to be honest with you it’s just a different slant that’s put on it that’s been finding a new slant is what I’m doing

William but I think that you know beyond the the whole slant finding angle to this I think the polls do have we I mean we’ve limited this to six to be fair there’s a lot more questions that they need to answer we have picked out six

That at least are interesting to us or ones that we want to hone in on there might be more that pop up during the show if you have questions in the comments that you want to get to us whilst we’re doing this happy to answer those two um but these are the six

Prevailing thoughts or questions questions that we want answered this time tomorrow now I’m not sure we will get the answers to these questions William um some of these are more holistic maybe philosophical very strategic based some are more routine or um shortterm thinking so maybe there’s a

Variance in terms of the likelihood of getting some answers for one question compared to another but these are the six that we want to focus in focus on because they ask six fundamental questions that it will determine this deadline determine what the Bulls will be for the remainder of this season but

Ultimately and importantly we’ll determine where the Bulls go from here on out into the offseason and Beyond depending again on the question and the action BS within said question so yeah let’s get into it um maybe we jump into question one and two first but before

Before we do that do you want to maybe just hit on there’s some real quick quick rumor mill stuff from Chris Haynes today you want to touch on that first you want to save up for later I’m the Casual here as all of you guys are

Noting in the in the comments so I’m just gonna let you kind of decide on that one no well look you are a casual but you are also the host and I forgive I forgive not I forgive myself I made the error there of diverting the

Conversation away I I did a typical will got La thing when he’s not in the hosting chair he likes to tell us where things are going in terms of the rundown I just did it just then so I apologize William you leave the conversation where it needs to go please maet bucket brings

It up so let’s uh let’s just hit on it real quick here uh Chris Haynes today was doing a live chat in the BR app and he mentioned a couple of things let’s start with Andre Drummond who appears to be kind of the hot name on the Bulls

Rumor Mill Xavier tman was acquired today as I mentioned for two second round picks and Chris Hayes said that acquiring Andre Drummond might require three second round picks and there could be a team willing to offer a first round pick uh there was also a sort of cryptic

Tweet from Jake fiser today after the Xavier Tillman news that said that this could potentially inform some of the Andre Drummond sweep Stakes uh obviously Drummond is one of the better backup centers in the league he he had a fantastic game last night uh as the uh

One of the twin towers for the Bulls against the Timberwolves um I think you have some strong opinions though about the idea of trading Drummond and uh whether or not that’s a good idea based on maybe some of this other stuff but what’s kind of your your quick um quick

Thoughts on that and how the bull should approach it well first I’ll be shocked if they’re able to move Drummond for a first round pick that to me seems unlikely and if it is a first round pick I would have to assume it’s one of those fake first that probably has more

Likelihood of being a uh a couple seconds or something but we saw Xavier Tillman get moved for a couple second round picks my expectation for Drummond would be three to four second round picks um but if you can get a first I understand the impetus to to move

Drummond but if your lone move at the trade deadline is trading Andre Drummond and you do nothing else and you’re doing nothing else under the assumption that you are trying to continue doing what you’re doing which is playing in that playin space whether it’s a 78 n or 10

Uh 10 spot let’s let’s see what how it all shakes out but assuming that remains the goal and assuming that’s what the team is trying to do and that’s the reason why you don’t want to move Caruso and d rozan and others then I don’t get the logic of only moving Andre Drummond

Who is a productive player a valuable player someone the balls need because they just don’t have dep like if you remove V vvi as as we saw earlier in this season all you’ve got at Center is Drummond so if you’re now removing Drummond and you are quote unquote

Trying to win games I don’t understand how you’re winning games if you are moving Drummond for future draft concession and presumably not bringing in other options so I don’t get it that to me would be a half measure if you’re trading Drummond that means you’re not

Well to me at least you’re not really going to be truly competing uh or and quote unquote competing so why stop there is my point you keep trading don’t just trade Kus uh don’t just trade Drummond trade Caruso trade dear do the whole thing don’t half ass it so I agree

With that I think the concept of trading Drummond but hanging on to Kus though from the standpoint of like buyers and sellers in that proposition doesn’t really make a lot of sense um I do think it makes sense just if you’re able to get a first round pick like you should

Probably do it regardless of what your plans are um just to kind of like get some assets but I do think that those are in some ways kind of conflict viewpoints and so it’ll be interesting if that is the only move that happens to understand From ak’s perspective why

That move made sense and you know trading crus didn’t because I think the one thing that we know about this you know this goar around with regards to the trade deadline is like we know that cruso could be had for a lot of value like last year AK said you know you

Don’t you don’t really know what was available to us so you know it’s it’s hard for you guys to like criticize what we did or did not do and this time around like I think it’s pretty clear based on all the reporting from various sources that like the Bulls are able to

Get a really good package for guso if they want to say yes to it and so not trading him there’s there’s a decision there it’s not like oh we were shopping him but we couldn’t really get what we wanted it’s like some really good offers

Are out there and you chose not to take it so so why is that and I think part of it is going to be the answer that you’re you know speculating which is that they still want to be competitive so if you’re going to trade some of your

Productive players now why not trade all of them um I think they’re still just trying to I mean really it comes down to like they’re not just like in the middle they’re like trying to be in the middle they don’t want to go like for a full

Tear down they can’t go much higher up than this other than like whatever internal Improvement they have so from that standpoint I wouldn’t be upset if the Bulls are able to add another first- round pick to their cupboard and move forward with that um I think we’re in

100% agreement as far as like they should be looking to move everyone and they should capitalize on Kusa while he is at his Peak um but you know I I don’t think I do think there’s an argument to be made that like well they still want to compete and losing Drummond for a

First round pick is still we can still compete with that and maybe we got a buyout Center or domoko steps up or you go small with Terry Taylor whatever it is um a backup center should not you know getting a first- round pick for a backup center should not be affected by

Your standing uh at all I think that’s just a good value proposition so um that was the one thing we kind of touched on it here the other was also from Chris Haynes quote they believe they could move up in the Eastern Conference standings that in reference to the

Bull’s desire to stay competitive this year um not necessarily sure if that means they’re going to be looking for additions but I think it does kind of reflect the sort of packages that the Bulls are going to be looking at as far as what they want back in a potential

Caruso trade or a drumond trade or whoever it is so we’ll kind of see there I’m pretty skeptical that they’re going to be able to find trades that satisfy their desire desire to stay competitive and also get picks like I think there’s you can kind of criticize them criticize

Them for having this standpoint but it’s also it’s not really like meant to be a critique it’s just like it’s really difficult to find to to make a a sell trade that helps you get better and gets you draft picks like those those trades just aren’t really out there I think

That’s a difficult thing to find so um I don’t know what do you what do you think about that as far as like their desire to stay competitive within sort of these constructs of what they’re looking for at the deadline well I think this hits on the

First question that we want to discuss the whole Andre Drummond thing and this whole competitive nature to it if you are moving Drummond for a first round pick and assuming it was a first even for multiple seconds like that that is good value but assuming you do that and

You don’t replace him then I don’t understand the whole competitive element to this whole thing uh like let’s run with the idea that maybe you could get a you know a heavily protected first round pick for Andre Drummond if that’s the market for Andre Drummond a backup

Center then to your point earlier around value surrounding Alex Caruso which we’ll touch on soon that should give you even more impetus to tr to trade someone like Alex Caruso because if you can net a first for Andre Drummond a productive roll guy on a on a good deal then what can you

Get for someone like Caruso who’s even more productive so I don’t get the idea I think if you’re trying to be competitive you can’t move Andre Drummond which again I’m not saying I agree with but if you do move Andre Drummond then you have to replace him in

Some shape or form if you want to remain competitive because I don’t think you can remain competitive if V is needing to play 40 minutes a game just because you don’t trust Terry Taylor or sonogo or whomever like you can’t even really do the small ball stuff with Terry uh

With Patrick Williams and Tory Craig because those two dudes are hurt uh let’s see about Tory cray because he you know looked like he got hurt last night Pat we know he’s out for however long let’s see how long that is so your options at Center are extremely limited

So this idea of moving on from Drummond for a first which is nice and good in isolation I like the move in isolation within the context of what the balls are trying to do which is seemingly be competitive and continuing to do this playing thing then you can’t just move

Drum you need to find a replacement or you can’t move him or whatever it may be so it just doesn’t like the thinking doesn’t line up so let’s see let’s see yeah I guess the the maybe difference of opinion there for me is like I agree with what

You’re saying and I I think it’s probably right but from their perspective I mean again I think they’re trying to stay in the middle and kind of thread this line of being competitive while also you know making sure that they have some assets coming in because they understand what position they’re in

So if they can do both of those things and losing a backup center is the cost Maybe that is worth it to them having said that though like I’ve been under this working under this this assumption that they’re locked into eight H sorry into ninth um that’s not necessarily

True and particularly when you start removing some of these key role players especially with his team being injured to the degree it is currently Zach’s not coming back I’m skeptical that Pat will play again this season I don’t think they are necessarily as locked or wedged

Into n as what I previously had thought there’s like a game separating them in the Lost column between the Hawks and the Bulls for ninth depending on what Brooklyn do at the deadline assuming they buy at the deadline they’re a team connected to dejonte Mari like that they

Could potentially enter into that 910 race as well so there’s a chance here that the Bulls maybe don’t stay in in ninth maybe they’re not locked into ninth and maybe they do fall out of the plane I don’t think they’re going to catch Toronto at 12th but could they be

The 11th worth team in the East I think that’s possible so even if they do move on from Drummond or whatever it may be and think think they can stay in this competitive range I do think there is scope for them to fall out of that competitive range they won’t be bad

Enough to be competing in the tank race but may potentially not good enough to even be in the plane race like really truly caught in that middle space so uh I don’t think that idea necessarily holds as much as maybe what it did a few weeks ago where there was that

Separation between the Hawks and and the Nets and the Bulls yeah the Bulls have won three of five but uh you only three of their last seven as well so um they’re they’re definitely not playing at the same caliber that they were coming out of that 5 and 14 start where

They were really um just clicking on all cylinders and I think you’re right that you know this is not necessarily a given um obviously we don’t know what what’s gonna happen with the Hawks and the Nets uh Ben simth is coming back they play better with him on the court uh Deonte

Murray could move from the one team to the other and how does that affect things um I just there there are certainly no Givens here but again I think yes you can want to make the play in and desire to to have that be kind of

Where you end up this year while also making moves for the second or for the future and I think that’s sort of a a Threading of the needle that does make some sense to me even if it’s not a true commitment to One Direction or the other

Um I think it’s a way that they can kind of start to think about the future while also trying to remain in that race this year so maybe that’s what what they do maybe trading drumond kind of you know the bottom falls out and they’re not really able to compete in those minutes

When Vu is off the floor or maybe somebody gets hurt um but yeah it’s just kind of hard to for me it’s hard for to justify saying like I’m gonna pass up on an opportunity to get a first round pick or you know multiple second round picks

By the way multiple second round picks obviously um you know prefer a first- round pick but as far as like the the cap implications of a second round pick you can sign those guys now to multiple year contracts at really low numbers so Julian Phillips right now is making like

$1.6 million which is below the minimum uh the minimum I guess I should say for second round picks is lower than it is for a vet and so if you load up the roster with you know a couple of guys that can compete and give you real

Production uh from that um on those types of contracts that can be really valuable to you especially if you’ve got a bunch of 60 million dollars of dead money on your books with Lonzo and Zach so I don’t know we’ll see about that but to me like the bigger question and where

I’ve kind of come come down on this um for the most part is like they really I think Caruso is the Domino that they have to push down if you can’t trade Zach and you know you can’t really get something great for dear and you’re still happy with the way that dear is

Helping Kobe um and some of the younger players get better like it’s yeah I think what you’ve been saying is right that like it’s not the worst thing in the world if you let the rest of the season play out with dear and you let them walk in free

Agency or you sign him to a reasonable deal that you can then look to move him down the line or whatever it is but to me like Caruso is the one that has the most value and I think the most scope now at this point to lose value um so

What’s your position on sort of the value prop surrounding Caruso and whether or not that really changes from now to this off season or from now to next trade deadline as far as his value to the rest of the league goes yeah that’s that’s the question that’s what

The that’s what management need to be asking themselves is Caruso more valuable to the pools now in in the trade market can they net more for him now in the trade market compared to maybe this time next season or in addition to that I guess what what is

More valuable K moving Caruso now for two first round picks or maybe this time next year when you can maybe only get him for one first round pick but you do have that additional 80 odd games with Caruso let’s say like what is more valuable to the team because I don’t

Think it’s necessarily fair just to say uh it’s two first round picks now compared to one first round pick in 12 months time because you do have that time with Caruso to do a number of different things whether it’s on the court with him what he’s doing on the

Court uh uh from his own playing point of view but also the development of others and what he means for the team more generally from that standpoint so it’s an interesting one I guess again the answer to this question is dependent on the type of first round picks you’re

Getting if they’re real first round picks if they’re good per at least have the potential to be good first round picks then I would move him now I would move on I would try to Pivot now cuz for to me like I’m I’m thinking about 2025 and I’m thinking about trying to keep

That pick for the the 2025 draft of course the Bulls potentially ow that pick their own pick to the San Antonio Spurs in 2025 so yeah I would say that should be the focus I think next season should be a mini Tank season even if it’s just for

One season and I think getting rid of Caruso to enable that doing the Drummond deal whatever type of Drummond uh deal might be and then if you can getting value for dear if not then letting him go in the in the offseason as a free

Agent I think that’s fine as well so to me like the value proposition there is more value now to be had and again another thing to consider is is like Caruso has largely been healthy this season do you really want to risk another year a year or so where we’re

Saying maybe next deadline he you might be able to move in for one first round pick but what happens if he gets hurt and it’s a real injury and he’s out for several months the value proposition CH proposition changes dramatically at that point so I don’t think it’s worth the

Risk I don’t think there’s added benefit in keeping him Beyond moving on from what what it means now to move on from him both for the team for this current iteration but also what it means for the next one to two seasons I think you’re also looking at the same movie right now

With you know Demar which is that like last year with uh two playoff runs left on his contract where he’s still playing at a really high level he was just coming off an All-Star game like you probably could get a lot for him whereas now as an expiring teams aren’t really

Sure how the cap is affecting it he’s starting to age a little bit and not look like quite the same caliber of player and you’re seeing that decline in his value to other teams and so when that happens you know dear has not his value to the bulls has not changed

That’s remained constant but his value to the wrestle league has gone down and so the value that the Bulls could get back for him in a trade has gone down and so even though you know they could still get maybe something for him there’s like an inflection point between

Like what the Bulls what would be worth it for the Bulls to do it and what other teams are going to be giving him and like they’ve kind of crossed and now the one has exceeded the other and the Bulls aren’t really able to get as much for

Tamar as as would be worth it and so they’re gonna kind of run this thing back thing happening with Caruso maybe not to the same extent because he’s on a much lower number and he contributes in other ways and is more of a fit with

Most teams um but I do see that sort of same thing happening we were kind of talking about this today in our di hard subscriber only Discord Channel we were kind of talking about you know maybe the Bulls could if they if they do hang on

To Caruso maybe they could get like a pick in this upcoming draft because on draft night teams will be able to trade their picks if they are barred by the stepan role right now so maybe it’s like something that they could get that’s a little bit more immediate but I don’t

Think it’s necessarily going to be more and yeah I think there’s value in keeping him obviously he helps the team get better he helps some of these other players get better but is that cost you know worth not moving him now when you could be getting as much as you could in

Return um I’m not really sure I mean I still definitely think that they should move him I think that’s the one move they should make but I guess where I’m not sure is like how much how much less are they gonna have to take for him in

The off season and is it going to again again get to the point where you know they aren’t really able to make the move because now it’s just a little bit less that they’re getting offered and he still matters so much to them that it’s

Not quite worth it I’m not sure um but I will say this like I know that those offers are out there for Caruso and if they want to take them they can and so the decision not to if kuso is on this team past deadline that’s like an intentional decision made by

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There more value in moving him now keeping him and getting the experience of the last uh 30 some OD games here plus the playin um or do you think it’s better to cut bait and move now and I think you know avoid having to you know make the mistake of resigning him for

Way more than you want to well you can avoid making that mistake regardless like you don’t have to fall into that M that mistake or that trap at the don’t have to because of the deadline you don’t have to you always have the ability to not do that um so

That doesn’t need to be a thing that happens but for me this again is a very easy calculation if you can move Demar for real stuff and by real stuff I mean a first round pick then do it if all you can get back for demand D rozan is some

Second round picks and to make the money work you need to take on guys that potentially have um guaranteed money on their books for next season season and Beyond then I’m not doing it because then that dramatically changes your optionality from a cap point of view

Going forward as well for what you can do in the offseason for the next iteration of the team so it really again is conditional on what value you can get back for him so I don’t subscribe to this idea that you need to move in that

You absolutely have to and if you don’t it’s a failure because I don’t think that’s necessarily true it is obviously true if you’re turning down first round pick offers to keep the Demar around given that he isn’t expiring and potentially may leave in free agency but

If all you’re getting back for Demar is terrible returns then I think there is value in keeping him I think there’s value in um having him next to Kobe for the next 30 odd games to help from a mentoring standpoint I think we saw last night against the Wolves how it’s

Helpful for someone like Kobe to have that second on ball guy there to be able to pick things up when when needed whether it’s in the first quarter when Kobe didn’t have a going in that first half or in overtime when Demar took over as well so there’s value in the team and

Kobe having someone like dear around for the next few months assuming you can’t get real back value back for him so to me this one’s a lot easier to answer it’s conditional on again what the value you can get back but assuming it’s not good then I don’t think you need to be

Forced to do anything you kind of said this in a very strong way and I wanted to see if I could bring it back to the Caruso conversation for a second you said like you don’t think it’s going to be an absolute AB failure if you don’t

Trade Tomar do you feel that way about not trading Caruso uh no because I think you can guarantee yourself that uh what’s the name that you you can get value like with dear if I if if we were hearing the same things about dear as we were Kus

With kuso in the sense that you know you can get one to two first round picks depending on who you want to hear from a reporting point of view then I would be pushing trading dear like that would be my position right now but we haven’t heard anything close to that in relation

To Dear so to me the value prop is a lot different the age thing is a lot different the expected well I mean the contract status is very different too like Caruso is not up for free agency now or will you know in a few months time whereas dear will be so there’s

Reasons as to why it differs and why based on that my opinion differs um but to me it would be somewhat malpractice to not move Caruso in the at the deadline whereas dear I think like I said you don’t have to rush into a new contract you could let him walk in the

Offseason assuming you can’t get value back in a trade and we’ve talked about here endlessly particularly after the Zach news that assuming Zach can’t be moved his $43 million is on the books and maybe lonzo’s number remains on the books too like that’s 60 something million doll in uh in money that is

Immovable against your cap sheet next year now if you have to trade someone like dear for ruy and Gabe Vincent from the to the Lakers as an example like both of those guys are contracted next season that’s an an additional 30 odd million that you would have in guaranteed money which may be

Problematic if you want to resign someone like Patrick Williams because we know the limitations of what this team is from a tax point of view so that’s why it does matter and that’s why I’m not against this idea of just letting demaro in the offseason if I have to

Take on all this bad money for a couple seconds as an example maybe I think about it more hard if it’s like for real stuff like real picks but I’m not assuming that’s what’s going to happen so to me this one’s a lot easier to answer yeah I feel like if they’re going

To trade dear you’ve got to get that that’s the kind of deal where it’s got to be worth it for you I don’t like I was kind of getting to the point with Zach where it was like you should probably just trade him for salary relief because what if he gets injured

And now you’re stuck with him for the next three years because nobody wants to touch that contract for a guy who’s now had coming off of a third surgery um dear it’s like I think you have the flexibility to let him walk and I think that would be maybe not such a great

Look for the front office from like more of the Casual fan perspective of like what are you guys doing here you just let the best player on the team Walk For Nothing in free agency um why didn’t you trade him for anything get I agree with you that I’m

Not quite there uh as far as Demar goes just because I think he does still add a lot of value and like look if the Bulls are able to get a future first- round pick for Drummond and they trade Caruso for you know a pick and a good young player

Now you’re kind of set up much better for the future having dear around to make this team competitive that makes a lot more sense now where you’re a little bit more set up for the future when you’re fully loaded on this concept of this team and you don’t really have

You’re still kind of in the red with draft picks you don’t really have a lot of younger prospects that you can look to and say like these are the guys that are going to be part of our future and you don’t really have the players that

You can use to go out and get those picks like that doesn’t really make sense but if you’ve if you start to load up the cupboards you get two draft picks and a young player between dear or between Caruso and Drummond now all of a sudden competing now I think makes a lot

More sense and there’s a bigger difference between what they’re doing now versus what that would be and so yeah keeping uh D rozan I think makes a lot more sense in that capacity and I I think the bigger concern is like we’re just kind of joking about it

Like the extension I I would be more concerned about keeping him just from the perspective of like okay you get to the off seon and your books are what they are you can’t really move Zach at this point you know Lonzo I don’t think they would be like bringing

Lonzo to shoot in front of the media and putting him on the broadcast if they were like ready to retire him medically like I think they’re still trying to get him to come back so you can’t clear that 21 million they could if they probably

Wanted to or you know he he still hasn’t even started running yet so it’s not like it’s that close but I just feel like the fact that they’re kind of paring him around a little bit does not indicate to me that they’re trying to get rid of him no no and there’s other

Things around that as well like who’s his agency who’s his representation who do they represent on this team what deals have the Bulls and clutch done in the past you see that motor Rola Jersey or that motor roller patch on the Bulls jersey like that’s a clutch thing too so

I think there’s a lot of things to to consider with that point I completely agree Lonzo is not getting medically retired I would be shocked if that happens like why would you hold on to him for 2 and a half years to only medically retire like you you’ve reached

This conclusion Now sort of thing like why do it now if there’s any chance of him coming back and being some level of of you know valuable rotation piece it’s it’s probably more likely now compared to any other time in the previous two and a half Seasons so it doesn’t really

Make sense to do that um but like I guess with the Demar thing like whilst they might catch heat for letting him walk for nothing I think they would catch more heat if they were to extend him and sign him to a two to two or

Threee deal and like as an example what do you think where do you think they’ll get more heat for like if the Bulls give dear a threeyear 90 million deal or if they just let him walk in for agency well it depends on and that’s where I was going with this is that

Informs what other moves you can make and so if your move is to bring back dear at $30 million a year guess what you’re not really doing much else uh maybe you can bring back Patrick but $30 million for dear and you’re not getting off of Zach oronzo you’re not bringing

Back Patrick I mean that he would have to sign for like $10 million it would be a qualifying offer um that just it wouldn’t work um and so if the if the equation is Patrick or dear then I think you start to to get some heat um if you

Trade him now though for two second round picks and you get up on the podium and say we just traded our best player for two second round picks because this is the best we could do like it’s it’s just difficult for them to um make those kinds of decisions when the fan base

Isn’t going to know what the Alternatives were and like the counterfactuals matter here because that obviously informs what you do but my point was if you go into this summer and you’ve maybe won a play in game and got close to another one and you feel still pretty good by yourself

And Kobe continues at this level and now you want to bring back toor and run it back again that’s great but unless you make some other major moves which which are you know trading Zach or trading l or getting off of Lonzo and clearing out space you’re not going to really be able

To do that and so that’s why we’ve been talking about salary dumping Zach um and moving forward with that kind of flexibility and I think flexibility the lack of it has kind of informed not just the moves that this team has made over the last three years but the lack of

Moves that they’ve made I think in a lot of ways that has come to Define this era more than the moves themselves so um yeah I I think it’s it’s an interesting question but I just don’t want them to get into a position where they’re they’re in a similar spot with the mar

That they were in with Vu last year and I just see it trending that way the more this season plays out and so with that in mind you know we’re talking about flexibility what’s your stance on this and it sounds kind of crazy but I think there you could definitely make it a

Strong argument for it is there value in attaching a draft pick to move off of LaVine or to move off of V right now in order to gain some flexibility some cap space some optionality maybe bring in a couple of other role players so that you

Can move forward because I think in a lot of ways this team has just been up against the tax for the last three years they’re trying to compete so they can’t trade into their best players they don’t have any future draft picks to trade to add to this team and they really can’t

Add any money because they are already up against the tax uh so if you can’t trade away your good players and you can’t trade your picks to get new stuff and bring in more stuff then you can’t really do anything and so I think that’s why the Bulls are in the situation that

They are that’s why they haven’t made any moves in the last three trade deadlines and two offseasons do you feel like attaching assets to get off of Zack now makes sense just to have that optionality back so you can make decisions about dear and not be so

Pressured uh by the by the luxury tax to do that yeah I think there is and this is a fundamental question that they need to ask themselves like is there value like what is more valuable having that asset or having optionality where you can do a whole bunch of different things I think

That’s a real question that they need to ask now the answer to that question again will be determined by what asset you need to give up with the V you presumably wouldn’t have to maybe give up as much as maybe what you would need to do with line in a dumping type

Situation given the contract statuses and those sorts of things but it also doesn’t necessarily have to be a pick either like Connecting the Dots here like if we consider Alex Caruso an asset which he is could I entice a team to take V’s number the the the the $40 odd

Million remaining on his contract Beyond this season if I also include Alex Caruso in the deal you might not get any first round picks back for Caruso in said deal and maybe you value keeping V around and and getting in those first round picks for Caruso in separate deals

Maybe that’s something that you you would do but if for whatever reason you do want that optionality same thing is true with Zach like can I attach Caruso into that trade to entice the Pistons maybe going in for Zach even you know despite the injury thing or if it’s not

Zach just because no one wants to take a shot now because of the injury thing that maybe there’s Medical Red Flags around that and we’re talking about V or even Lonzo to be fair like if you want to get rid of these guys off the book so

You have that ability to do some different things maybe you include uh Caruso inet deal I’m probably more reluctant to do it when it’s when we’re talking younger assets maybe less so D and Terry but if I’m having to do in include someone like a Julian Philips or

A future first round picks just to get off v no I probably wouldn’t do that but it depends on the asset like if I can connect Caruso and V together in a deal send them to a contender and gets back some expiring contracts and maybe some

Second round picks I don’t think that is the worst thing to uh to really position I know people won’t like to hear that people think we’re insane for for even mentioning that but again to your point earlier the reasons why the Bulls are on this tread wheel of mediocrity is

Because they are continuously getting them themselves stuck on it and the more you just resign your own guys the less optionality you do have to do something different so what do you value more continuing to do the same thing or changing things and the only way you can

Really change things is if you fundamentally want to you know advance in that path of changing things and you may need to attach some assets to do so so I think the Bulls need to come to have their come to Jesus mement in relation to that I know fans don’t want

To hear that they probably don’t want to entertain that idea particularly if they people that love alexo and don’t want to move in more generally let alone for connecting him to dump someone else but I think that’s a question you need to ask yourself yeah uh JK not loving that

Mentality he said Jesus thank God you are not the GM why would you give up draft Capital when you gave up so much to get them but macket bucket saying he would attach a pick to move off of Zack fish says we are stuck with Vu he’s not

That bad on the books for a starter his contract also doesn’t get in the way of a rebuild I tend to agree with that fish I think it’s not that’s not the worst contract in the books and it’s probably not the first one that you should be looking to

Ship out but it does if you were able to do it create some more space and that and every flexibility every piece of flexibility every dollar you can spare now helps because of where they are so uh keep letting us know what you think in the comments I want to hear you guys

Thoughts on the Caruso conversation do you think they kind of need to move him now or is it better to wait and reassess same thing with dear would you trade him even if it’s for like not very much right now um just so that you can kind

Of move on from him or do you think it’s better to let him walk in fre agency tell us what you think and hit the like for us uh we got like 135 people watching only 19 likes so let’s get those thumbs up as we take another quick

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Listeners can receive $350 off the discount when they use promo code chdo restrictions do apply of course but see Empire empire today /do full the full details on what’s on offer so as we are just reading some ads here we got a little uh slop from Jake

Fiser should we go through this before we get to our final two questions slop it up um let’s slap it up I just this it’s my favorite time of year um so he mentions uh the Xavier Tillman trade again ruling Andre Drummond out uh for the Celtics obviously in that case but

He says coach Chicago’s Reserve Center has drawn interest from various teams with varying postseason hopes Philadelphia remains one club with an eye towards acquiring Drummond sources said as the former sixer could possibly start in the absence of injured reigning MVP Joel embiid along with Dallas Phoenix is another team that has shown

Interested in Drummond sources said the rockets and Lakers had shown interest in Drummond as well for sources but both teams have been categorized as less likely outcomes for the 30-year-old big man Chicago has stated it will take at least multiple second round picks for the Bulls Department Drummond if they

Move him at all sources said uh tilman’s cost of second rounders for Memphis would seem to suggest that a reasonable price point for Drummond but the Bulls B accounts still have eyes on the postseason and it’s no sure thing that Chicago will ultimately move one of the game’s top offensive

Rebounders Mark what say you well I I agree in the sense that I would be asking more for drumond than zavier Tillman so that’s that makes sense to me when I saw the tman thing as I said before at the top of the podcast like cool if if Tilman who is a good

Backup center I don’t think he’s maybe as good as Drummond uh he’s definitely better in other aspects of the game but I you know I I would still rate Drummond to be the better backup center if that’s what tman can get couple second round picks then I think we need three or

Three or four for Drummond we’ve seen lesser players get moved at the trade deadline for four or five second round picks I think Drummond is worth three to four second round picks so I understand why the Bulls would say no to two second round picks that makes sense to me for

All the reasons we discussed at the top of top of the show again the part that doesn’t make sense to me is maybe not moving him if you’re trying to chase this post seon things so yeah the slop lines up with everything we’re hearing the blls they’re asking for a lot if

They need to move on from their guys and and you noted this earlier today on on Twitter like to the point where they’re asking so much that maybe there’s no real opportunity here to actually do anything because their asking price is so maybe obscene in some instances that

You can’t actually make trades because you just you’re just asking for too much so maybe that’s my uh concern after reading that paragraph or hearing that paragraph but I don’t think they’re wrong as well for asking a little bit more than what tman got in a deal yeah I

Think it’s more about a quality thing for me than quantity necessarily you know obviously five second round picks it’d be hard to say no to that but you know if it’s a 35th or better or even really like top 40 pick in a draft um I think that’s a pretty valuable pick I

Mean the Bulls are pretty much out second picks until 2028 I believe they have 28 29 and 30 having traded two to get into this uh second round for julan Phillips so and like I said before I mean those contracts can be really valuable as far as cheap contributors go

Um but so much of the league has already traded their second round picks that it’s kind of hard to even keep track of who has which second round pick I’m looking at ton.com right now Detroit has traded Theirs to Toronto Washington has traded Theirs to Detroit and then to

Utah Utah San Antonio has theirs that’s protected but I don’t really see them as being a Suitor um Charlotte traded Theirs to Portland Portland traded Theirs to Milwaukee Toronto traded Theirs to Philadelphia Memphis to Minnesota I mean literally all of the picks in the second round except for two

In the top 45 the 33rd and the 45th have been traded uh including the bols so just kind of like really depends on the quality of the player and I know people are kind of talking about this draft as not being as uh you know solid as some

Of the other ones but um I think really what that means is like there’s no clear you know Superstar player at the top of the draft that does not necessarily mean that there’s not going to be contributors through you know the 35th or 40th picks so I think if you can get

Some good stuff that makes sense um and I think this yeah desire to maintain the ninth seed or you know as they say kind of move their way up in the play in tournament I don’t think that’s a good enough reason for me to to say no to

Good second round pick picks um so that that’s what we got from Jake fiser that’s the latest um as far as Bulls nuggets go um it really just does not seem at all like Caruso and dear have really been in The Ether with regards to uh potential trades here of late so

We’ll see if that even happens um but I’m getting a little bit curious about our guy Patrick Williams are the Bulls prepared to match any offer that he might get in restricted free agency and if not uh should he be in play at the deadline what are your thoughts about that and

Then obviously he’s got the injury going on right now we don’t really know where that is leading him and and how serious that is I saw him last night in the locker room he’s wearing a boot he was in good spirits he was happy to see the

Media for the first time in while he was joking around some people but um yeah I think his injury is still a little bit uh unclear as far as what’s goingon to happen there so how do you think the bull should handle uh Patrick and I think especially considering how you

Know all these other topics that we’ve talked about factor in with regards to dear’s free agency in particular yeah I think that’s important and that that this is why everything is connected right like the whole Patrick thing what he may demand in free agency either by what he and the Bulls agree to

Or what he and another team agree to and the Bulls have to make a decision as to whether they resign it or match it rather this is this whole topic is connected this is why all these questions need to be asked they’re fundamental questions that not just impact that singular trade or the

Players within that trade but also all you can do with anything else whether it’s your own guys like Pat or other free agents and what you have available to you in that sense so it does matter but the reason why I R I wanted to raise this question is obviously Patrick’s a

Restricted free agent he’s currently injured that injury may play in your favor from a contract standpoint or a negotiating standpoint in the offseason it may not if he’s able to get back and prove that the foot thing is not a problem and you know he can go out and

Do the thing and and maybe if he heals it up maybe he comes back and plays better than he has been more recently if at that point one of these cap space teams maybe a team like the Pistons is an example is prepared to offer Patrick

A number that you don’t like there’s a risk associated with losing Patrick for nothing does it make sense to be considering trading Patrick now maybe that’s not a good idea given you know I would assume his value is not really high right now one given the fact that

He’s going to be a restricted free agent but two uh the injur and and the injury itself and maybe the uncertainty set injury but I think that’s something you need to ask yourself like what is our line what is our number for Pat is it 20

Million are we prepared to pay over 20 million if the answer is no and you’ve got an inkling that maybe Pat can command more than that in for agency like does it make sense to move him now I I don’t know what the answer is to that I’m not saying that they should

What I’m saying is this is a question they should be asking themselves and ultimately getting an answer on post this deadline and so anyone wanting to conflate this as me saying these questions are what I think the Bulls should do that’s not what I’m saying I’m just asking the question that you need

To be really assessing this thing you need to be understanding where your line is and you need to be understanding that Patrick Williams is free agency connected to all these other questions we’ve asked today so even though he’s not someone that I think people would naturally consider a trade Target or a

Trade option right now and I get why I still think the Bulls need to be you know mapping out what what the plan is for Patrick moving forward and the deadline in some respects has some element or some control to that absolutely I mean they again all this

Comes back to we know this team is not going to go into the luxury tax for Better or For Worse that’s just the the fact of the matter so how do they now what what can we how can we infer what’s going to happen based on that limitation

And when you’re talking about their free agency this year basically you know they’ve got 48 I think million dollars between maybe it’s less than that um I don’t know the number exactly off the top of my head but you’ve got to fit Patrick and dear into that number if you’re not going to

Move off of Zack or Alonzo so how do you do that especially when another team could just come in and give Patrick a huge number now I’m not sure about this so maybe you can uh clarify but like let’s say the the Pistons come in and

Offer Patrick $25 million a year and the Bulls are like no chance like can they do a sign and trade in that instance or is it since the the Pistons have cap space they can just take him in it’s not necessarily because a lot of times like

When you do a signing trade like what the Bulls did with the Spurs to get dear was they were an over the cap team they said we will have to give you thadius young and alfar aminu and a first- round pick in order to take on alfar amu’s

Contract and we’ll give dear money so that we can stay over the cap um but since the Pistons are going to be a cap space team could they just absorb him into cap space and let the Bulls either you know accept or decline is it the

Type of situation with the Cavs with lry marinin where they negotiated a sign and trade um without necessarily him getting a a restricted offer sheet and taking it back to the Bulls my thought is that they could possibly do it that way but in reality the Pistons could just sign

Him outright and now you either have to sign him or not and you’re either way over the tax uh because you’ve elected to sign him and bring back Tomar or you let him walk for nothing because that’s where I think like of all the people that could walk for nothing in free

Agency like that’s one where I just don’t know if you can really sell the fan base on that one well I think there’s a segment of of fans that maybe you could sell it on like those that are out on Pat and don’t think he’s worth more than you know 10

15 million as an example and if another team comes in and signs in for 25 30 million then I think there would be you know a contingent of people that would be fine with letting him go in that example but to what you were noting

There and and look I’m not a cap wizard but I think if the Pistons match him or or sorry sign him to a restricted free agent offer I think at that point you can’t do a signing trade if I’m not mistaken again I’m happy to be corrected

On I think you’re right you have to work out the sign and trade prior to extending the offer sheet isn’t an offer sheet in that case so in that sense if the Pistons do come in they’ve got you know whatever their cap space number is 40 50 60 million I guess it’s depending

And all the other things they do but assuming they’ve got space to just offer Pat a deal like that um then it’s pretty much you know do we match or do we not type decision for the ball so there is risk associated with Pat getting to to

Free agency and a team like the Pistons who probably have some some holes up front in their front Court need shooting need defense Pat fills those holes they were interested in Pat in the uh in the draft in 2020 it makes a lot of sense

For them to be in on Pat in a lot of number of different ways so you do need to understand what you’re doing with him more generally you need to understand that there’s risks in losing him which is why this whole this whole conversation is happening right now like

Why it’s a question so uh well just to just to kind of uh tie that up I mean looking at some of the projected caps Bas teams for next year it’s like the Pistons uh the Sixers the magic the Hornets the Jazz the Raptors now the

Pacers can have some cap space if they if they create it for themselves um the Spurs so it’s like often times with these big cap space teams they’re not going to necessarily be in the running for Paul George he’s probably the prime uh free agent to be right now

Because he hasn’t yet signed an extension because he’s not going to go to the Pistons to play for a seven- win team yeah he wants to compete for a championship if you’re 22 years old and you know you’re entering your second contract and this team is littered with

Young guys that are all in their rookie deals you can maybe afford to overpay on a player like Patrick because he’s not going to really affect your long-term cap sheet um Beyond obviously his years and dollars on this deal but it gets you another premium young asset that you can

Now add into this group who fits your timeline and so this is not a situation where it’s like last or with Zach’s free agency for example there weren’t any cap space teams that he was really at risk of going to the magic or whatever it was because those situations weren’t

Enticing for Patrick it’s going to be about a big payday here and that’s not to say that Patrick doesn’t want to be in Chicago or that money is all he cares about I don’t know that that’s just my guess is that you you know if he’s deciding

Between if the Bulls are saying you know what Pat go get an offer sheet and we’ll either match it or not and the Pistons offer him 25 million like I would have a hard time uh saying the bull should match that just based on their cap situation I would also have a really

Hard time saying they should let Patrick move for nothing so I don’t necessarily think that a sign and trade for him is just an option that they can go to I also don’t necessarily think that they should put themselves in a situation where they don’t really have full control over this and even

Though he’s restricted I don’t think they have full control over this so that is a really tricky situation um yeah I I don’t really know I mean they obviously miss their chance to extend him on a rookie scale deal and obviously they’ll see how the market

Changes and maybe he just plays on the qualifying offer um maybe this injury really impacts things maybe he signs a shorter deal the way Kobe did a three-year deal and he can get back on the free agent Market a little bit sooner so there’s still some options

There but I think the idea that they have full control over him just because he’s uh restricted is not quite the case and they’re GNA have some tough decisions with some of these teams out there looking to add a valuable young talent but if you are looking to add anything valuable

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We’ve got one more question to answer so I’m just going to post it to you here yeah how much of the Bulls intend this deadline to shape and inform their upcoming offseason well William that is a big question what a want what a great question to end the podcast

On I think they have to be thinking about this this deadline is important to what they do going forward we just touched on why with part like what what you do this deadline whether you keep part or not that determines what you’re potentially doing in the offseason same

Thing with thear same thing with the whole thing around kuso and if you want to dump LaVine or V whatever it might be like this is probably the first question they need to answer like what are we doing here is the intent of this dead deadline to what are we

Doing W I didn’t mean it in that intended way but the question should be like is the intent of this deadline to make this current group better to really lock in for the next games and try to maximize whatever this season is meant to be or is the intent of the deadline

To start laying the foundations for what is to come whether it’s the offseason whether it’s the draft whether it’s the offseasons thereafter whatever it might be like is this the pivot point or is this the beginning of the Pivot Point the thing that allows you to Pivot like

We talked about when you talked about uh the the pieces around maybe attaching things to get off a LaVine or a vir like that allows you to Pivot in a way that you can’t right now moving on from dear potentially allows you to Pivot in a way

That you can’t right now so this big sweeping question is the fundamental question it’s the one they need to answer first because then it becomes clearer for all these other things that we’ve posed today like if you don’t answer this one first then you don’t know what you’re really truly doing with

Pat you don’t know what you really want to do with LaVine v d rozan Caruso whoever it may be like this is the first question you need to ask this is the first hurdle so this is the answer we all need to hear from ak’s lips and his

At his 3 pm press conference tomorrow this is what he needs to answer I I’m not convinced that he will but this is what they need to be asking and answering tomorrow the funny part about it is that I think in a lot of ways it’s becoming clear that like operating in

The middle is actually not the easiest thing like they are looking for they’re looking for they’re looking to trade their Veterans for both veterans who can help you win now and also future draft picks and it’s like those deals don’t exist there’s a reason why you’re either Trading

Picks away to get players or players away to get picks that’s like how the market works and so the Bulls are trying to trade away players to get more players and picks it’s no wonder they haven’t been able to make any trades because nobody can satisfy what they’re

Looking for and you know in in part that’s a critique because the Bulls have unrealistic expectations about what it is that they’re trying to do um but it’s also like just an observation to kind of Express why we are up against a third straight deadline of inactivity and and

They they have been good enough I think for their standards which is to be competitive to sell out United Center to have exciting games like the one last night where people are really hyped to be watching this team and you know they’re in the hunt they’re in the hunt

For the play in I I think you know obviously the bar has kind of changed the goal posts have been moved with this playing tournament and that being something that teams can really get excited about but um to me I I think that that leaves them in this position where

They are just kind of Frozen in the middle and I think in some ways it’s kind of hard to maintain that but it’s not hard to get there and so even to maintain that I think is going to be a challenge for the Bulls coming into this deadline and offseason with all these

Questions we’ve just been asking as far as their cap sheet and how they bring back I me this isn’t even to talk about Beyond next season what happens when kuso’s a pending fre agent and he wants $18 million a year $20 million a year how do you fit that number into your cat

Books if you bring back dear at 30 million you’ve still got Vu and now Kobe’s an expiring contract and he’s going to need more than his $13 million a year I mean you’re gonna need to pay him a ton of money so um there are longer term ramifications for all these

Decisions and I don’t know that they’re quite ready to address them just yet but I do think that the longer they put them off the harder those questions uh become and the more difficult they are to solve so that is what I am looking forward to you mentioned it the uh post trade

Deadline press conference will be uh at 3M tomorrow with our tourist answering some questions from the media uh that’ll be virtual so we’ll be logged into that and we can have a lot more to talk about after that um I think we can go ahead and probably wrap it up here Mark unless

You have anything else to say but I will just add tomorrow we are doing a live trade deadline special with Matt Dave and myself in studio for the final half an hour I believe of the trade deadline so I think we’re going live at 1:30 and

We’ll go through the final buzzer see if any deals come in we’ll be reacting to all the news that’s happening around the league and if anything happens with Bulls of course we’ll break that down and then tomorrow night obviously they are back in action in Memphis so we will

Be there for postgame as well uh Mark any final thoughts before we sign out here no final thoughts William um no let’s just let’s sign off I’m ready to log off I’m uh let’s see what if there’s any more slot waiting for us when we do

Log off and um hopefully we get some answers to these questions that’s the only thing that is really all we can say that we’ve been looking for is answers because even still I don’t know that I can really say that I have any right now

So I’m very curious to see how this goes obviously Drummond is uh kind of the name to watch at this point but um you know DeMar rosen could be on the Move uh Caruso could be on the Move I’m not making you want to do predictions real

Quick like with Drummond Caruso dear do you think each of those guys gets moved do you think any of them don’t get moved what’s your final prediction I think Drummond goes to Philadelphia and I think that is the only move okay the only uh material move let’s say if someone like Javon Carter

Is moved or someone that’s not in the rotation is traded cool whatever like of of the players that are in the rotation and playing productive basketball that is my prediction the drum gets moved to the Sixers and for a few second rounders and that’s all we do I’m going to

Go if you had asked me 10 minutes ago I probably would have said Drummond was going to get traded but I don’t know I’m just feeling like nothing’s going to happen right now I’m gonna predict no moves are made I think the Bulls are just feeling a little bit too good about

Themselves to be changing anything uh and risking their chance to get that sweet sweet playin gate revenue for that one magical moment in April so we’ll see how that all goes we’ll see how it breaks down we’ve got less than 24 hours to the deadline uh

I’m going to be soaking it in I’m sure you will be monitoring your Twitter like a madman as will I and we will be back tomorrow thank you guys all for tuning in we appreciate you checking in the comments hitting the like And subscribe

And all of that on your way out uh until then we will talk to you guys next time we all like the

On today’s episode of the CHGO Bulls podcast, Mark and Will are back for another HQ Edition. Ahead of the NBA trade deadline, the fellas pose six key questions the Bulls must answer.

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