2024 Sub All-Stars! | Thinking Basketball #252
Hey that’s emotional there’s good stuff you ready to do this let’s do it thinking basketball podcast my name is Ben and today it is time for the sixth annual thinking basketball sub All-Star team I Cody is back we wrangled him from the clutches of fatherhood he’s
A new man Fred Van Fleet heaters coming in the next hour from Mr hodek straight out of a basement in Wisconsin that’s not really a basement but we won’t tell anybody the man the myth the legend how you doing nor is it in Wisconsin right
Now so the the time in the place it’s all I’m it’s great Ben being a dad is it’s surreal it’s amazing I find myself just staring at my daughter for for long stretches of time like I’m usually like a very focused like I need to get all
These things done but time just stops and I’m like I just need to look at you and I can’t stop looking at you this I like this side of you yeah I’m a much I’m a much more mushy person I think now deeply connected to humanity
At this moment which is going to help with the sub Allstar team there’s no doubt about that yeah I I did see there was a discussion on like a previous YouTube video where people are like do we like sassy Cody or do we like like mean Cody and like mean Cody’s better so
Maybe maybe I can Wrangle him out a couple times here but you know I’m I’m mushy you know I’m going to give everyone the love and respect that they deserve as a professional basket ball player okay uh you made a face because I I can’t believe it either this is the
The sixth sub Allstar team that we’ve ever done if you don’t know the drill the history behind this is basically we for you know as far as we can remember in NBA history we’ve had an All-Star team but that All-Star team only covers the first kind of tier of top players
The first wave of top players and as I started to get into historical basketball and the Deep analysis and things like that years ago I noticed there’s all these guys who probably never even make a single All-Star team someone like Lamar o was a great inspiration for this podcast and every
Year those players are super super relevant they’re super relevant on good teams they’re super relevant on championship teams and so only making this official acknowledgement of like the top 25 or 26 Allstars in the league there’s 24 Allstar but there’s injury Replacements we have a couple this year
On the official team as well um it felt like it was missing something to me so we do the next wave of players some people have called this the almost Stars uh as we go through we’ll always kind of talk about different use cases and Arc
Types of players and where they fall but today Cody for the sixth annual sub All-Star Team U historically I take us out to about 50 players if we have 25 to 30 Allstars we’ll have about 25 to 30 sub Allstars just to keep it nice and
Tidy and neat and fun like that but today I realized like we’ve done so much work over the years talking about the ranges of players and things like that that that what we’ll do is we’ll rattle off guys who I think are are Allstar players basically uh and then we’ll get
To the first fun area which is like the range of players that could be Allstar but also could be sub Allstar and because we’re picking a team we have to just draw an imaginary line in the sand and call it a day and if the wind blew
In another direction or if I was wearing you know black instead of blue maybe we would go in a different place but we’re going to we’re going to put some of those guys on the All-Star line some of those guys on the sub Allstar line line
I think there’s another sort of group of players for me that I’m like I’m very comfortable with him being a sub Allstar and then there’s the Fringe guys where we’re going to have to like we do every year take us out to I don’t know 58 62
Maybe last year we discussed 66 players and about half of them will be on the sub Allstar team and half of them will be on the other side of the line that’s that’s the plan for today I think that’s the the trickiest line to draw is the
Guys that just kind of miss the sub All Star are cut off because you know I I get a list and I try to cut myself off around like 10 or so but every time I look at the list of players I’m like this list is probably like 70 players
Long like there’s a bunch of dudes that are like really close to being a sub Allstar but just aren’t quite there so at a certain point like there’s only so much you can do with just like making Arguments for these guys looking at the numbers looking at the tape uh so you
Know that’s me saying that I feel like there’s a good chance at some point you’re going to say somebody and I’m going to make a reaction CU I’ll be like I didn’t even consider that guy but you’re absolutely right it’s just so hard to delineate between each of these
Segments and uh g dog it Ben we are going to be uh doing our darnest to do that today what is happening called Target uh you you are the new father around these parts you’re invigorated you’re revitalized you’re more focused than ever what position would you like
To start at we always do this by looking at Smalls wings and bigs what position would you like to start at Smalls wings or bigs do you remember where we started last year I do not I could possibly I feel like wings last year I don’t know I
Don’t remember okay my first thought because I think there’s a lot of guys that I’m really interested in for this position uh I think we should start with some bigs this year oh fantastic fantastic that’s what I have first listed in my little uh what do I call
This my ballot my sheet serendipitous b s this is fantastic okay so bigs let’s let’s rattle off the All-Star bigs let’s start with that um I have just as we just said I’ve got like probably more than 20 big men I can discuss but let’s start with the easy part let’s start
With the all stars uh Nicole yic Joel embiid Yannis Dupo I Cody I know you were nervous about what was gonna happen with Giannis uh jannis on Deo Anthony Davis well this is a fun one bam out of bio and then it starts to get really fun
Um and we reached the players that I would like to discuss for Big Ben H yes yes so on the allstar side of the line I would like to put I can’t believe we’re starting here yes I would like to put Victor wanyama yes you as allar yes you would yes yes I
Would I would like to to uh put him here I’ve seen enough um now as I as I said last week with Kyle man I don’t have a huge problem with him not being on the allstar team because he’s a rookie and his first couple months weren’t as good
As his last month or six weeks or whatever but as a reminder the way I do this is I’m not just beholden to the results of the first half of the Season I’m thinking about how you perform in a playoff setting I’m thinking about how I would think of your sort of overall
Quality as a player in the league in 2024 which means we are not just saying hey you’re a good regular season player we can get us 45 wins on a decent team I’m really thinking about the playoffs start tomorrow and we’ve got a tournament to go into Victor Wana is a
Rookie so we’ve seen like some areas where it’s been a little bumpy we’ve seen other areas where he’s been fantastic I I think the ship has sailed I do not think we’ll be looking back at at like hey is Victor wanyama the 43 best I think he’s too good I think he’s
Too good I’m going Allstar Victor wom Yama you have a video about him uh J Kyle man has a video about him you and Kyle had an hour and a half podcast about him I I that’s just me saying that I don’t need to add anything to it I
Didn’t even finish the podcast about 45 minutes into it I hope you reference the fact that he already might be the best lob finisher ever like it’s it’s unbelievable what he’s able to do out there uh he’s he’s maybe my favorite watch right now in the league and I I
Don’t know if that matters in terms of Allstar but that’s all I’ll say about him right now well we what we didn’t even mention is that uh some someone was like you know wem’s cooled off a little bit and I think that’s true statistically he had cooled off in the
Last couple weeks and I was like actually I checked it and he’s down to 30 points per 75 on 60% true shooting what a slouch he he’s really struggling this rookie just 30 points uh the of course he only plays like 28 minutes a game because of whatever kind of Tom
Foer is going on down in San Anton they should make like a 30 for30 documentary on whatever is happening down in San Antonio this all of the Beats of the season from the second they won the lottery to where they are now I don’t I don’t know where that ship is going but
I know that if I stack up 30 NBA players and we have a playoff series coming up I don’t think there’s going to be 30 I can name over Victor wanyama he is an Allstar Chad holgren All-Star mhm oh oh okay good that’s I think that was actually probably a common thought
Before the wemi explosion I think if you had asked people two months ago people would be like oh chat’s the All-Star rookie and and wemi is probably just like on the outside looking in obviously he’s had quite an explosion these last couple months but Chad kind of came out
The guy uh Gates on fire and he sort of hasn’t let up like I think maybe the shooting percentages themselves have gone down but the rim protection is real he’s added it feels like the the driving game has developed more than anything offensively for him throughout the
Season and of course he is just a great spacer for them so no issue with that at all Jad homr is 11th in the NBA in EPM Cody he’s 15th in our box plus minus model on uh thinking basketball.net for our patreon subscribers patreon.com thinking basketball if you’re interested
In playing around with that and then we have an augmented plus minus which was another kind of like hybrid I’m not going to say it’s like a old pipm but it’s the same family of blending uh plus minus and blending box score he’s in the
Top 40 in the league in that you’re in if you’re in the top 20 and the top 40 in the league and all those stats like basically what they’re saying is you look like one of the best players in the NBA and I have a hard time arguing with
That and we we talk a lot about the rookie taxs but as I’ve said before I think I think Chad has what Billy rafter would call the onions I think Chad is uh is good to go in the playoffs I’m very excited first time there may be some
Bumps and bruises but I I think he’s a gamer um I think he can rise to the competition we might have a you know a bumpy game in game one but let’s come back in game two so I I don’t have too big of a rookie tax I I do have him on
The like is he a sub Allstar or an Allstar but I’m I’m going to go Allstar the thing that I’m really interested to see for him when he gets to the playoffs is the first time A team’s like we are going to make you shoot 12
Three-pointers a game and I see want to see how he’s going to respond to it CU I feel like there’s been a little bit of a time here where he puts the ball on the deck where I’m like why don’t you just take that shot you are wide open and I’m
I’m very interested in sort of like the Al Horford kind of way I feel like I’ve seen Al Horford in that situation where it’s like you’re going to take 10 threes this game like if you want to take this open shot that’s going to do and I want
To see rookie chat handle that sort of situation in the playoffs to me that’s the most interesting storyline going to any run that the Thunder have okay now it’s starting to get really tricky for me um in terms of where to put players I had I had a couple more tough calls MH
Um let’s start in Boston with Chris ABS porzingis yes I think I went back and forth 15 different times with Chris abs porzingis and my my big question in my head is like how good is he actually as a rim protector you know how on YouTube Everyone likes to add actually to every
You know how how good is he actually I don’t know what we were gonna if we took out the word actually I don’t know what it was going to mean but that’s how I kind of feel about christops I’m like how much value does he have as a rim
Protector because he’s looked great physically he moves really well um he can you know he’s hyper efficient he’s hyper efficient I have an upcoming podcast it’s available for patreon subscribers right now but I think we’re going to push it to the public once that’s done um about overall scoring
Efficiency and breaking in turnovers and making in offensive rebounds on your own misses and things like that porzingis looks like one of the most efficient players in the entire league uh I think he’s been huge huge huge to the Celtic success on both ends I like the
Versatility he gives you and to me he’s not just a like pick and pop and drop big man guy he can move without the ball he can take advantage of mismatches his cutting and the way he’s just moving physically looks beautiful so I’m going to I went back and forth I’m gonna say
Allstar this year for Chris depps I’m gonna go Allstar yeah he’s on that side of the line for me he’s also one of the few guys that I have highlighted in purple which just means that I would really like to talk about him so I’m glad that you landed on him because I
Think I feel the same way about him I sort of deep dived the defense when he played for the Mavericks uh however many years ago that was at this point I guess that was only like two years I don’t even even know time is a flat circle uh
But the point with porzingis is I think in terms of like Rim deterrence he’s long he’s very athletic like he can get pretty high pretty quickly so I think he deters people from the rim pretty well he makes people adjust their shot quite a bit he blocks shots and so I think in
Terms of some of those numbers he looks really good but like the physicality I think maybe he doesn’t bring like the I don’t want to like use a Trope and say he doesn’t bring like that sort of toughness but he shies away from some of the like bumping and bruising that goes
On in the paint and I think that holds him back from being like one of the best Rim protectors in the game but in terms of like using the length to disrupt shots and stuff like that uh I think he’s he’s right near the top of the rim
With of the the league with that the offense too like you said is really interesting because I see some teams will try and put a smaller player on him and be like you know what no matter what christs is going to get a three-point shot off like it doesn’t matter if we
Have a big guy on him nobody can contest it so we might as well put somebody small on him but he can take him into the post and he has a nice little turnaround bank shot that he calls on quite a bit and players just sort of
Can’t do anything about that uh when they’re in the post so I just think it’s a really Dynamic offensive player that can be used in a bunch of different situations when he’s surrounded by the cast that the Celtics have and defensively I think you know like I said
He’s got some of these strong Rim protecting indicators that will serve him well in the playoffs Cody um do you know who has the best onoff differential in the league meaning the the difference in their team’s performance when they are on the court versus off the court do you know
Do you want to take a guess at who that is is it not Nico yic it is Nico yic the nuggets are 21 points per 100 better now the question I would like to ask you since you AC that first one who is the second best onoff differential player in
The NBA in 2024 joic is plus 21 who is second man I think it’s I think it’s either one of the Celtics or one of the I think the answer is probably going to be porzingis uh but I also kind of thought it was like you know contavious
Calwell Pope so I’m going to say kcp I like where your brain is going uh but what you didn’t realize is I’m setting up the next player we’re going to talk about the answer is Lowry marinin plus 20 second onoff differential and last season he was in the 99th percentile at plus
17 he kind of I think last last year we talked about him and I was I had him on this bubble as well and I had him in the sub Allstar category I still would like to see I think if we’re talking about Lowry as like a solid legit Superstar
Like I don’t have to worry about him as a top 20 All-Star kind of player um I need just a half I need him to be able to dial it up half gear more in terms of taking the ball and and forcing offense like self-generating offense I just need
A little bit more assertion because sometimes times in jazz games the the offense can get away from them for spells they’ve actually they’ve been very good offensively for a while and they’re they’re a very competitive team Colin seon’s played well but that he just doesn’t quite have that like
Well we need a bucket let’s have a go-to move or get something it’s so much off ball it’s so much screening switching moving cutting and I think that’s enough but it’s like a 7 foot Klay Thompson and I just want just a little I just want a
Little extra from Lowry to push him in but we were talking about length and porzingis his length um I think in many ways marinin is a negative Defender but he uses his length really well he actually gives you some versatility there where it’s like he’s not the greatest drop Defender but he’ll rotate
He’ll be in position um that actually means you can play certain lineups where he protects the rim well enough so I don’t want to get too stuck on some of these Fringe guys but this year Cody I’ve seen enough I’m going to if I have
To pick a team I’m going to put Lowry on the team we are uh perfectly aligned so far everyone that you said is on my Allstar team good oh my goodness um I think this might be our first deviation yeah I’m going to go to a player now who
I have on my sub Allstar team as a big man and I believe I’ve had him I’ve had him on the All-Star team multiple times I’m looking at the official thinking basketball uh sub Allstar history here yes I have him as a four-time Allstar
And this is the second year in a row I have him in the sub All-Star range and we can talk about why but I’m going as the first sub Allstar big man I’m going with Rudy goar he’s a sub Allstar for oh my goodness I thought you I I thought you
Were gonna go Allstar with him let me let me ask you something cuz he’s actually another purple guy that I want to be talking about here are you done with your All-Star bigs do you have no more All-Star bigs do you want me to reveal that as a as a kind of spoiler
Okay I just I just didn’t know if I I can tell you how many left how many are left if you’d like don’t don’t tell me that let’s talk about Rudy go bear for a second let’s talk about Rudy go Bear yeah well the short of it is is is
Playoff offense I think his playoff offense is a is a massive negative and um I think his playoff defense as a rim protector and drop big is fantastic it’s not as Earth shattering as what he can do moving the needle in the regular season but I think it’s fantastic but I
Think that combination of being such an issue on offense uh not being able to take advantage of small ball not being able to exploit mismatches he’s again going back to this podcast that’s coming out that I’ve done for patreons he’s very turnover prone um all that kind of
Makes it hard for me to in in 2024 basketball get him in that like hey Rudy goar is a top 25 player let me ask you something about Rudy goar yes please yes go ahead so here’s here’s where I am with someone like Rudy goar and this is relevant for
A couple of other guys that you know some guys that aren’t necessarily going to come up but I think some guys that will come up we can carry this conversation over to that how much value offensively do you actually bring to the table when you’re a high efficiency somewhat lowc scoring guy
That is uh excellent in like the pick and roll and can grab some offensive rebounds and score like realistically how valuable are you on offense how much are you moving the needle for your team well if you can only be a lob threat um then I think the first thing that’s
Interesting is you really need to play with a pick and roll guy who can hook you like that’s the offense you can’t go space or things like that and that’s what the Timberwolves run into they have these tricky things where if you’re not using him and pick and roll what does he
Do the second thing is you get to the playoffs or you get to different situations um mostly in the postseason I shouldn’t say it’s regular season where teams will say Hey you know how we answer this we just switch it now you don’t get that lob anymore this is what
Teams did to uh James Harden and and Clinton capella for the Rockets they switched a ton and that’s when the Rockets started playing more isolation with Harden you switch it to take away that downhill Advantage if you can exploit the smaller player in a mismatch that’s still pretty good but in goar’s
Case he he can’t as far as I’ve seen statistically it’s actually just not a good situation you don’t want to force the ball into him uh in that spot so and then the last part is the offensive rebounding um offensive rebounding in that situation independent of playing
The pick and Ro game because when you play the pick and roll game if two guys go to the shooter and you get the offensive rebound that’s part of the pick and roll to me that’s that’s cleanup Duty I don’t know if I would think of him as like hey when you when
You get Rudy goar in the dunker spot and other guys play over on the weak side you’re getting Mitchell Robinson offensive rebounding situation so I I get where you’re coming from but my my answer these days is not too much that’s kind of my answer yeah so then I think
Goar has to be the gold standard of How High can you Peak as a player if you’re not moving the needle on offense and you’re like an all defense sort of impact guy because as far as I’m concerned Rudy goar right now in the regular season is probably the most
Impactful defensive player in the league for my money from what we’ve seen so far and if he can’t even make Allstar level then it seems like you can’t right now at least no player that we’ve see in the league right now Victor wanyama uh you know not standing in the last next
Couple of Seasons but you can’t be an All-Star level player if you don’t move the needle at all on offense do you think that’s accurate right now well I think he’s giving something back I mean I think that’s the tricky part yeah I think there are I think there are other
Guys like I’m I’m not sure as we move forward how someone like a Derek Lively will shake out and compare they maybe a little better in a playoff setting um you know bam certainly expanded his offensive game in the last few years but you think about this like offensive
Rebounding athletic Rim Runner bam can pass so there’s the passing component as well well I know I know goar can pass a little bit but again I think like the yeah exactly if you’re not on YouTube Cody made sort of like a scrunchy like I don’t know that’s how I feel about it
But I think the more important takeaway is that are you running delay sort of handoff sets through him at the top of the key in the elbow is he Dynamic enough to um threaten your defense so you have to hug up on him so he can hit
A back door cutter to me the answer is no and if the answer is yes for certain players then I think Cody you get into a situation where it’s like okay this guy could be an Allstar without being a great offensive player mostly because of his defense I think in CO’s case he’s
Giving something back okay and I’m glad you mentioned Lively because I’ve been I’ve been into this R Rim running sort of uh archetype for a little bit CU I’m like how valuable can you actually be offensively with this and I was looking at some onoff numbers I’m like all right
What is what does Lively look with and without Luca what does Clint capella look like with and without Trey and both of them I mean they have their points per 75 drop off a couple uh their efficiency drops off like six percentage points in relative true shooting percentage so there’s this kind of
Contextual thing where it’s almost like I think you can give a little bit more on offense like you said if you’re next to somebody that’s going to uh you know drag out every inch of your value on offense like somebody like Luca wood with goar uh but I think contextually in
Like the Timberwolves right now for what goar is around he’s probably a net negative like you said offensively and um yeah I think overall that’s why he ends up in the sub Allstar category too for me let’s let’s do another tricky one um because we are we are on Pace for the
Longest podcast in NBA history right now I just want to F we have a couple to blast through but I want to focus on these interesting case studies I have this next player as a two-time All-Star in the past I had him as a sub Allstar
When he was younger it’s very tricky to figure out what to do with him because I don’t know about granting him Grace and leeway because of his his physical makeup but Zion Williamson is another one of these players hugging the line for me obviously coming in not in great
Condition he’s played better I’ve seen some signs Cody but we still got to go through the All-Star break the rest of the season is he going to get in better shape is he going to get in worse shape um I’m not sure what to make of it I’m
Going to go sub Allstar with Zion Williamson oh you’re going sub this is actually our first player where we differed because uh I put him on the All-Star side of things okay okay but I think I I agree with everything you said like It’s Tricky with a guy that was you
Know drafted for the 2020 season and he hasn’t played a single playoff game like we don’t know what he looks like in the playoffs but you watch him play like you said recently the vertical pop isn’t what we want to see it’s coming back the finishing ability it doesn’t even matter
Like his touch around the rim is just there’s nothing guys can do he’s just spinning D through dudes he’s throwing like these beautiful soft touches high off the backboard and finishing them uh he’s just a wrecking ball and I think he bends defenses in a really special way
With his finishing ability so uh I don’t know maybe I’m granting him a little bit too much in the way that he can bend the defenses but I still think it’s a it’s an extraordinarily valuable skill once we enter the playoffs yeah I think I
Think if he has had more of a pedigree more of a history of this I could I could give him sort of a grace period and say like all right I I I kind of know what I expect rounding into form in the playoffs but I just don’t have that
Confidence to say at this point which means if we came back and did this in 8 weeks I might say yeah I mean Zion had an All-Star season no doubt but I also might come back and say like ah I don’t know Zion Zion clearly did not look like
A top 25 or 30 player this season so I’m going to drop him on the sub All-Star side of the line now there is a player and this will actually come up with multiple players but there’s another player who I think is right in this range uh who I’ve seen play in the
Postseason and I’ve seen struggle in the postseason and his strengths and weaknesses and studying them in ton in depth last year really made me come out of the playoffs and go like okay I I have a I have a very good feel for what you are as a regular season player and I
Think what you are as a playoff player so I’m going to go sub Allstar with deonis sabonis oh you put him down to I struggled with him a lot I struggled with him cuz he’s just so good in the regular season right efficiency’s up there to me is an All-Star regular
Season player but yeah I can’t get some of those kavan Looney matchups from from the playoffs out of my mind so I I don’t I’m being honest here like I I did end up putting him in the All-Star category because I’m like new year new me kind of
Thing let’s just shake off what happened in the past uh I don’t know I’m probably granting people a little like I said mushy attitude right now I’m like you know what I like what Zion and sabonis look like right now let’s pretend that this is going to be able to carry on
Into the playoffs he was in the ninth percentile in our turnover tracking and all of our playoff series playoff database that we uh have on thinking basketball.net averaged 17 points on negative -6% true shooting in that series it was a real struggle the kings were way better with him on the bench in
That series his overall impact numbers were in the basement um and like I said you know if if you took that at face value you would say he’s not even a sub Allstar so it’s only one series and he as you said he’s playing the Warriors
He’s playing cavon Looney uh but to me it just showed like okay the playoffs the differences between the playoffs in the regular season are a thing that’s specifically going to affect the Rhythm and the kind of surgical Cadence of sabonis is game the passes he likes to
Make the handoff actions and you just sag off him and you’re like please shoot jumpers um we’ll give you threes and we’re going to try to take away some of the cuts and The Cutting actions on your teammates and all of a sudden that means if he can’t power through you if he
Can’t bully ball you uh and maybe there’s some matchups where he can do that I don’t think you’re going to get nearly the same value you get in the regular season so I think in some playoff series he’ll have some success in other Playoff series I think we’ll
Continue to see those kinds of struggles puts them right in the purple Zone as Cody likes to say so uh I’m going sub Allstar there you have more thoughts yes just I’m interested in sa bonus because last year according to the think basketball.net database shot 49% on mid-range jumpers or mid-range field
Goal attempts this season 50% once again this is a guy that should have like a solid mid-range game and I can like I’m V envisioning multiple plays from the playoffs where he’s just left open from 16 ft refusing to take it and uh I find that strange based on how he’s been able
To shoot the last couple Seasons so I don’t know if there was a weird season La uh Series last year I don’t know if like the ghost of Moses Malone taking over Kevon Looney’s body like just completely threw him out of his game uh but I don’t know I’m I’m expecting more
This playoffs from sabonis so I have nine big men in this purple Zone in this R like they high-end range could make them an All-Star their lower end range or their median range drops them just below the line for me uh that’s a lot that’s a lot of them we’ve mentioned
Rudy goar we’ve mentioned sabonis we’ve mentioned Zion we did Chris daps and Lowry Markin uh Pascal SE yakum is another one in this range I I Cody I kind of miss the I kind of miss the defense and cutting days of Pascal seum we’re now like ISO scorer pull up three
Pascal SE yakum with with a lot less defensive punch uh I kind of continue to feel I I think I felt this way for a few years he he toes this line last season I has him as had had him as a sub Allstar for the third time in our history I will
Put him as a sub Allstar as well well have you watched many of the uh the Pacers games with him have you just a couple just a smatter I’m really I’m really waiting to get going on the HTT and Pascal Duo Tag Team Championship belt situation and you know see see how
They do it so I’ve checked in just a little yeah just based on how seaks played uh I’m really interested to see how they they pair together CU like you said a lot of iso stuff a lot of stuff in the post I don’t know if anyone is as
Vocal screaming his way to the basket as seak is I it’s very clear listening to him on League pass but uh I I kind of feel what you’re saying like I I do miss the like third option offensive guy that’s also maybe the best defender on
That Raptor’s team for a period of time and it just it doesn’t feel like he has that sort of impact anymore there’s one more guy in that purple zone for me and that is uh alrin shenen I’m not quite ready to go Allstar I really like sort
Of him as a uh pseudo offensive Center piece I don’t know the right word like you wouldn’t you wouldn’t I don’t think in 2020 24 say let’s build an awesome offense completely around everything Al Shen gun does but if he’s a hub of your offense maybe much like sabonis I think
You’re going to have a really good offense and he’s taken strides defensively to tread water and use his length and physicality and how much is that going to hold up in the playoffs I don’t know but uh to me Al Shena another sub All-Star big man look at all these
Big men code I mean we could fill up the entire All-Star team with big men I know this is incredible this is incredible and yeah Shang good is just a guy I think he’s gonna have the same even worst scoring warts as as sabonis uh once the Playoff starts so that kind of
Bumped him down for me here okay somehow now we only get to the very very tricky difficult conversations of um who’s who’s going to make the sub Allstar team and who’s going to be on the other side of the line uh I will go this is this is so fun this is really
Really fun four I have I have two more well I don’t have two I have four more sub All-Star I have four more sub All-Star big men okay I will say that um let’s set aside this category I have a category of players Cody that I don’t
Know how to describe it I don’t want to be too pajor of but you can’t trust you can’t trust them psychologically you can’t trust them you can’t rely on them you can’t rely on them to be there for the team all the time you know what I’m saying they might get suspended they
Might get kicked out of the game they might get benched they might get they tweet something you know I’m talking about I feel like there’s a there’s actually a couple of guys you could be you be talking about here I want to know which one you’re talking about but you
Know what I’m saying that Dennis Rodman kind of like you know I can evaluate you as a player but then I also have to somehow make a mental calculation for whether you’re going to even be in the game that kind of thing like you’re going to make some brilliant passes out
There but also defensively you’re going to be able to read everybody’s mind and just hold everything together from your Brilliance yes but then also you might fall apart and get suspended for a long time you might kick LeBron James in the in the crotch you uh I that’s Draymond Green that is
Draymond uh I I feel that way about Carl Anthony towns yes you do uh the man who scored 62 points and got benched for L lunatic shot selection which was one of my favorite games of the year that was an all-timer that game was incredible I accidentally started watching that game
Twice the other day and didn’t even realize I was so much was going on in that game I was like scouting something else I was like wait this is the car Anthony Town 62-point game um I think it was the Hornets I was scouting something going on with the Hornets that was just
Spectacular hey free we’re gonna get to freeing lamelo ball later in the show you know who else fits in this category Cody he’s not a big man but we just got to cover this ground now so we can skip it later Kyrie Irving fits in this
Category he does right he’s like as a basketball player on the court you are ahead of where you are when you take into account like what is going to be happening with Kyrie Irving in the locker room out off the off the court so I don’t know what I don’t really know
What to do too much with any of these players um I’m just GNA say for towns and green they’re going to go on the sub Allstar team that’s what I’m going to say yeah they’re they’re both on it for me as well I think okay great well
Continue is it because some of the the playoff struggles and this aformentioned conversation that towns is not a straight up All-Star for you yes yes because okay it very much is an on court thing with towns in the sense that the moments where he gets frustrated or
Distracted or just that the that that little like break from the focus is something that I think causes real problems both on offense a little bit he’s so talented on offense but especially on defense and then he starts getting into foul trouble and then he’s and then he’s reaching and he’s late and
He’s second guessing and in big moments against guys that will put your feet to the fire that will say hello hello sabonis um let’s see what happened to sabonis last year he got stepped on in one game and then Looney just trucked him like out of he’s like okay I’m gonna
Play I’m gonna Moses Malone right now I’m gonna play the whole game and I’m G to truck you and also I’m going to get in your head and like sag off you while you’re at the free throw line you’re going to have to make that shot this is
What happens in the playoffs when the games get really intense and there’s a lot of situations where G regular season games have been intense with towns and I feel like it’s chipped away at his on court value it’s led to mistakes and so as a player in a vacuum in the second
Quarter of a regular season game I would have him as an All-Star I think he is extra extraordinarily talented we’ve talked about his Drive face up uh incredible outside shooting and he’s a good passer as a big man but he really should be playing the five you move him
Over to the four you know defensively to help out he’s been better this year so again I think on the court in the regular season you could say he’s an All-Star but that’s where it factors in for me I I think it bleeds away at is actual value
In big situations I think a good sign for the frustration level is when he kind of like cups the ball like this and he throws like a softball pass and you think it’s just a little too fast that’s when it’s off the rails that’s when
You’re like oh no this this is not a good head space right now that’s usually my indicator when I’m watching Minnesota play I’m I’m going to have Jared Allen as a sub ball star how do you feel about that you are Absol how do you feel about
That I I considered him for like a hot second for for the actual Allstar team okay okay this is my second straight year with Jared Allen as a sub Allstar I love his floater game I like a little extra passing he’s got the solid drop big man thing um I actually think in
Many ways you could argue he’s he’s been well ahead of Rudy goar as a playoff offensive player given what we’ve seen from him this season so Jared Allen sub Allstar I have I have one more I have one more sub Allstar is it is it is it
Jaren Jackson Jr it’s Jaren Jackson Jr you’re using dad power you’re not allowed to do this we’re only in the first category jiren Jackson Jr now now would I say in the first half of this season with some of the struggles that Memphis has had and the position he’s in
Being over taxed he really needs to be your third or fourth offensive guy trying to do more offensively would I say he’s had a top 40 or top 50 uh record or results in the first half of the Season no I would not but I still believe in the over all defensive
Package as a secondary attacker on offense he is a player who if you switch will bullyball you a little in the post has the hook with both hands can get to the free throw line some of my concerns uh I’m not as high on him defensively as
I was in the past because I think some of the fouling and body control stuff does separate him from the very best of the best but I I went back and forth and really struggled and I think he’s just too good and he’s had too good of a
Track record to not be in this whatever it comes out to be like top 55 players uh in the season based on you you know again you check in on some Memphis games lately and you still see some of those same things there it’s just I think the
Situation is over taxing him yeah and like you said the over taxing of it all he’s not a great passer but he’s put in a position a lot of times where he sort of has to make some of these passes I see some high low passes actually once
In a while where I’m thinking okay jiren’s able to to make this pass once in a while but there’s other times where I’m like I don’t want you trying to make these passes but I just don’t know what else the Grizzlies are supposed to do at
This point and so I think he’s one of a couple of other guys that I think because of their particular role they’re not showcasing just how good they would be if they were actually maximized this year and so I still I’m reserving the right to be like jiren Jackson Jr might
Be like an All-Star level player but I think based on the role and everything we’re seeing on the team context right now I’m more comfortable with him being a sub Allstar I have four more players on my cut line who I put on the other
Side of the cut line I think you can probably make a high-end argument or like hey there’s uncertainty their young uh kind of argument about them being sub Allstars I’m going to read those for names to you Cody and then if you want to talk about them we can talk about
Them otherwise we can go to the next category those four names are Evan Mobley uh Julius Randall Palo bonero and your guy Brook Lopez oh Brook lope I actually wasn’t expecting that name Brook has actually play pretty well this season if you look at the uh numbers and again if you buy
His Rim protection he’s a similar archetype to some of the other big men that we’ve already gone into detail on yeah I just I don’t think Brook’s quite as good as he has been in the past so if you have thought of him like a couple of
Years ago as being a sub Allstar and you think he’s regressed a little bit maybe he’s on the outside looking in just like you’re kind of saying here um I don’t even want to talk about Evan Moy that’s just kind of it just kind of hurts it
Hurts a little too much Brooke by the way three three time sub Allstar in the history of this podcast so that’s exactly uh what it is for me but just want to acknowledge Him here okay oh The Bigs there were a lot of a lot of conversations to have on the bigs let’s
Go to let’s go to guards does that work podcast isn’t over that wasn’t that wasn’t the full episode that was the first segment that was that was the first segment we only have two more of those oh yeah so let’s look at guards I’m just
Going to Rattle off a lot of Slam Dunk Allstars for me how’s that sound perfect uh Shay gildas Alexander Tyrese halberton Luca donic Donovan Mitchell oh my goodness what is going on with him James Harden Jaylen Brunson Tyrese Maxie Jamal Murray Damien Lillard Stephen Curry and
Trey young those are guys that to me I don’t have to think too hard about they are on the All-Star side of the equation anyone there we need to discuss uh no I don’t think so I think they’re all pretty clear to me Jamal Murray by the way the fact that he
Didn’t make the All-Star team is amazing because he is so much better than the second best player in NBA history to not make the All-Star team Cody can he keep this run up and be like a first ballot Hall of Fame if the Nuggets win three titles and he never makes the allstar
Team we were just looking at his Western Conference Finals performance last year where we averaged like 30 something points a game on massive efficiency completely dominated the Los Angeles Lakers had an argument to win Western Conference Finals MVP over Nicole yic and he’s never made an All-Star team
That’s kind of how I feel with like Mike connley getting his first All-Star appearance his only All-Star appearance in 2021 when he was at Utah like I think there was a time like around 2017 2016 where like the shooting stroke for Conley came together he was still a
Feisty little defensive player where I think he was very clearly like an All-Star level player and he would have been in that I think Jamal Murray is better than what Mike connley was at his Peak uh but yeah we if Mike connley is now out of the picture like Murray is
Very clearly like steps above anyone else that hasn’t been an All-Star okay let’s go to the purple Zone um we already mentioned Kyrie Irving I’m going to do the same thing with Kyrie Irving that I did with the other guys I’m going to put him as a sub
Allstar I think a lot of Kyrie Irving’s on court performance and indicators this year have been really good he’s he’s insanely skilled uh he’s a ridiculously good shooter he adds that on ball pop but I I just you know obviously defensive concerns and the other stuff
I’ll I’ll just go with sub Allstar with Kyrie Irving let’s talk about Derek white he’s another guy in this zone for me Derek white just does so many things well he’s like he’s like that classic like I’m a brown belt in a lot of things
But I don’t know if that’s enough to get him in the like top 25 I don’t know if he has is there an area he’s a black belt is there an area that really pushes the value up as I say this I think very very highly of Derek white he’s in this
Purple Zone but I’m going sub Allstar and he feels like kind of a a quintessential hardcore solid sub Allstar I mean in terms of like the Black Belt part of it if you recall back into our our best defensive players of the last 15 years the shot blocking yes
He was uh I think I had him sixth overall in terms of guards so I I think very highly of his defense think very highly of his length and his ability to bother by the rim and things like that I’m I’m going to be vulnerable with you
Right now Ben um I don’t really know what to do with the Celtics just in general like I don’t know what to do with any of these guys because when you look at somebody like Derek white whatever you think of his defense how much value are you actually bringing
To the table offensively when you’re sort of this like low to medium low load kind of guy right like if you’re not a Steph Curry level shooter and you don’t have like that kind of crazy gravity you’re a good passer you’re not like Draymond Green level passer with that
Sort of low load um you can shoot the ball and you can drive but you’re not doing it like super high volumes how much are you actually moving the needle offensively and when I was kind of factoring in all of that stuff I’m like at the end of the day like that’s just
Not moving the needle as much as somebody that has a much higher load than you do and is doing it like with high efficiency and passing the ball a lot better and things like that so just by nature of how much he’s lit really doing on the court I kind of stuck him
In the sub Allstar category I appreciate the push for him to make the All-Star team based on the results of the Celtics based on how he’s played in the first half of the Season based on his importance that chemistry that balance in the ingredients that have them
Playing so well uh but to me just just not not quite good enough um boy this is so different than the bigs looking at my my little list here CJ McCollum have you seen him play Lately he is playing fantastically let think I’m looking at yeah he’s literally in my sub Allstar
Category I was I was watching him a little bit and I’m like I’m not giving this guy enough credit I think the the defensive woes take it out of it but when he’s given the chance to create like he’s pretty solid at getting into the paint he can fling some passes
Around and and the shooting he’s just kind of besides like getting into the paint and being a high level scorer there he’s pretty valuable shooting from pretty much anywhere on the court he’s self-generated scoring in moments for the Pelicans his extremely high level shooting from the outside uh I think
It’s been really key for them I think he’s playing some of the best basketball of his career obviously this type of Guard we’re talking about guards you are a kind of very good shooter borderline microwav scorer who gives something back defensively I don’t think that archetype gets you up into the star superstar
Category uh but CJ’s playing really well especially in the last month I’ll try to pull it up in a second if I can we talked about him last year as sort of being fringy in this category and not quite making it but I’ve had him as a
Sub ball star before and I think he’s playing some of the best basketball he’s played in a long time even though he’s like 33 at this point so CJ is a is a sub Allstar for me um how do you feel about Darren Fox
Uh I have him in the uh the sub Allstar category Darren Fox to me is another one of these purple players and I actually I’ll go the other way with the Kings on what I said about sabonis I liked some of the toughness I saw from Darren fox
In the postseason I think the fact that he’s so quick and can play with so much Pace does translate to stressing defenses in the postseason because of that athletic advantage and I think even defensively where we talk about these small guards having issues defensively I think some of his physical attributes in
Big moments or in certain matchups can actually oh you made a steal you made a big play you made a you had a big uh isolation stand defensively so I’m going to go Fox on the allstar side of the line he’s going to be my last All-Star
Guard uh in this category and then I have a few more sub Allstar guards I do like his defense I think when you look at some of the other guards that are sort of like Fox I like Fox’s defense better than some of them and maybe
That’s enough to bump it all up uh but I don’t know I always wanted him I thought he was always Notch lower in terms of his passing ability and a notch lower in terms of his scoring and efficiency compared to some of the other guards so
I was looking at the levers and like I I ultimately don’t know how much is his defense actually moving the needle in the playoffs so landed at sub Allstar for me he’s he’s you know 16th in EPM estimated plus minus um he’s 32nd in our offensive box plus minus he’s
33rd uh in that other stat augmented plus minus per game so I I do think the indic ators have started to come along that he’s certainly uh in this range as a player you know we’ve I I tagged him purple as you said but I think I’m going
To go on the All-Star side of the line for Daren fox now we have we have a very tricky one that’s near and dear to your heart to discuss you know what’s coming you know you know exactly what’s coming uh does does he play for milwauke he has
Played for Milwaukee before in the past okay yeah he’s played for Milwaukee play for Milwaukee anymore he plays for the Boston Celtics now and yeah yeah go ahead let me let me just say let me just say that I think he’s a very interesting case I think Ben that Drew holiday is a
Very interesting case because if we look at him last year I think it was very clear that he was like an All-Star level player last year he was fantastic he was fantastic the last couple Seasons with Milwaukee but just by Nature again the Derek white sort of argument of it by
Nature of what he’s given to do offensively like he’s his load his ability to not ability but his just his his role in creating for guys is so brought down that he’s losing out on a lot of what made him so valuable for Milwaukee and that was you know creating
Shots for uh for his teammates and things like that the defense maybe it’s slipped like a step maybe he doesn’t look quite as quick as he had uh in the last couple of Seasons but I think the role offensively just kind of brings him to the point where I don’t even know if
He’s in sub All-Star right now Ben it’s very tricky it’s very very tricky uh I will say I have had Drew holiday as a sub Allstar a couple time actually technically once I had him as a sub Allstar once in 2020 and then an Allstar for the last three years and I think
He’s a player who it took me a while to just appreciate how valuable all the little non-scoring stuff that he’s doing was on the court especially in a playoff series the defensive versatility rebounding cutting passing running offense when needed with the second unit second side attacks uh now has he played
Like a top 50 player in Boston probably not am I concerned that he might be old and slightly cooked in the legs and you just a little bit older age catches up to you play slower I am but also this type of player going back to
Draymond Green I mean I feel like if you go back and listen to some of the old sub Allstar podcasts both Draymond Green and Chris Paul probably other players but those two veterans come to mind four five six podcasts ago 2019 2020 they were players who people were
Saying they’re washed they’re over the hill they you know they’ve missed a couple games in the beginning of the Season they’re not top 50 players anymore and to me when you are like that good at basketball that’s when I give you the grace period that like okay I’m a little
More comfortable saying what’s happening with Drew in Boston is that he’s just sitting back and waiting to fill in the space needed to be filled in and if Boston had less offense he would provide more offense if they needed more ball handling you’d provide more ball handling um You probably never get him
To just automatically provide more shooting that’s not his thing but my hunch is when you get to the playoffs and it comes down to Brass tax am I going to want to have 50 or 55 players clearly above true holiday based on what I’m seeing this year I don’t
Think so so I think Cody we’re seeing sort of that we’ve called it data collection before it’s not that he needs to collect data it’s just he’s he’s so patient and passive he did the same thing when I covered him at UCLA when I covered him at UCLA he was touted as
This massive Prospect didn’t come in and score as much defended passed played more within the system and it’s just like 10 15 years ago I used to think well that makes him not quite that good and I I’ve been convinced now over many many years of massive massive data
Samples of just how good he is of like no that’s actually how he figures out how to be really good so I’m going to air on the side of sub for him okay I I now I just feel bad like you’re just here shaming me right now the one time I
Go negative and I you’re right I you’re right I’m glad you did this for me did you did you go negative there yeah I I made him a not sub Allstar I put him on the other side of that line this year oh I just figured you were teasing me when
You said that no I’m dead serious I but let’s let’s go with what you said I like everything figured there was no way you were going to you were going to stick to that uh where are we guards how many guards do we have left we have to talk
About uh couple more guys in the zone couple more guys in the zone let’s talk about lamelo ball we’ve talked about Lamela ball a ton I’ll make this super short I think Lamela ball is awesome and he’s in a terrible situation and he has great instincts and those instincts need a
Little coaching and need to be rained in and they aren’t being rained in and it makes him not quite as efficient as he could be and he’s injured and he’s coming back from injury I’m going to go sub allar with the m ball I think he’s a really good basketball player there you
Go perfect remember when I said I was going to realize that I didn’t put a player down that I should have was that lamelo ball that’s lamelo ball I never put him down but you’re absolutely right uh there’s a guy I want to bring up here that I think really interesting let’s do
It I’ve been driving this whole time let’s Cody Take the Wheel I’m really struggling with this dude because I really like him I I really like him he’s strong he’s a little T-Rex armed but he moves around a lot off ball he’s physical he’s tough he’s the kind of guy
Want in the playoffs but the numbers are really weird Ben and I don’t know what to do about Desmond Bane right now uh I’m gonna talk about Desmond Bane as a wing can I do that he’s a wing he He’s listed at 65 and he plays most of his
Minutes at two or three I feel like he’s more of a point guardy type okay well I understand yeah can we can we punt him can we punt him can I go to somebody else then yes please cuz you were confusing me so I was so confused as to
Who you’re talking about how about Mr Colin Sexton oh wow there’s a player I didn’t write down that absolutely goes in this bucket yeah I think he’s he’s been a nice efficient scorer this year uh defensively I think he’s definitely giving some stuff back but I think the
Creation’s really nice he’s kind of driving the the the ship in terms of like the Jazz need to get into the paint and create some stuff and uh I think it’s time that we give Colin seon a little bit of his flowers for sort of taking the wheels when you know like you
Said you want Lori marinan to kind of grab it and just go SE does that for them uh at a good level and I think he does it well it’s true it’s true he’s done a good job he deserves to be mentioned here I think in my head I I do
Give some of that credit to Will Hardy for putting him in a great situation like he’s really good in drives you know I think he’s 11th in the league in Drive frequency and is a top cortile in Drive finishing percentage and he can shoot from the outside do I love him running
Offense in a different system outside of Utah I I don’t know uh the last month with the Jazz he’s averaged 28 points per 75 plus 4% true shooting relative to the league he has the ball a lot they’ve been way better with him on the court
Plus seven with him on the court it’s it’s a it’s a tough call it’s a tough call I don’t know okay I like him I have him in my sub Allstar C okay I put him on that end you’re gonna really make me agonize later in the show always happens
Every year every year I have to go back and make a change on the Fly um remind me about Colin when we get to the end remind me about him I’ll do my best what’ you do with Fred Van vet put him on the other side of the not
I just said that terribly not a sub Allstar for me just on the outside though just on the outside is that because his sort of offensive Center piec is not potent enough for you yeah I I don’t know I don’t he’s not as good of a passer some of these other guys I
Think he’s a solid he’s got some solid hands defensively but I don’t think he’s really moving the needle that much defensively uh the pull-up three game I think is the big thing that was brought up a few years ago but he’s still not like that efficient of a scorer it’s
Just I I I want him to be a little bit better in pretty much every area to bump him up a bit more interesting I think the thing about him that kind of contrasts with someone like seon uh is Van vet is great at controlling tempo for the offense so e
Even though you don’t get like a potent kind of pick and roll hey we’re going to run a ton of stuff through you and it’s going to be amazing offense he’s a good pullup three-point shooter and he won’t necessarily do too much or eat up too much oxygen so if you need certain
Possessions that are just like steady possessions I think I think he gives you those uh how valuable is that or you know how much does he move the needle defensively I’m not sure I’m not sure but uh both of these guys are tricky I’m looking at uh in terms of just like
Houston cuz you know we have elper shun who’s a sub Allstar you have Fred Van Fleet who maybe it sounds like you might be dancing with him being a sub Allstar I am yeah it feels a little odd that you have these two guys and their offense is
As underwater as it is and when I see that kind of thing in my mind I’m like what am I missing here are there some other guys that are quite negative on offense like should I be expecting a little bit more when these guys are out
Here maybe the onoff stuff is proving me completely wrong and when they’re on the court they actually look like Titans offensively uh I I don’t know so I guess like that number game makes me more nervous who was the other Fred Van Ved and who was the other one Alber and
Shenon oh you think Shang gun’s offense is underwater no I I’m saying that like if both of them are sub All-Star level players and they’re getting a good amount of their value from offense I would like to see Houston’s offense in general be better than it is well I to
Me I’m considering that’s a great point but I’m considering eeme udoka as the coach defensive Talent around them and a lot of Youth so what is happening um maybe if we can go back in time because there’s a there’s a player that shenon reminds me of a little bit functionally
In terms of his Effectiveness in my head is like you take Louis Scola take lisis Scola for the rockets and give him a guard like give him uh Aaron Brooks as his point guard and then put three defensive players out there put Shane Bader and some other defensive players out there
Would you think really poorly of the offensive performance of someone like skola if he couldn’t take a a more defensive-minded team and make them good offensively especially with a defensive-minded coach that’s kind of where I’m coming from when I think of those guys man maybe you’re out to something
There but again like when you even look at the the times when both of them are on the court together you have shenon and Fred Van Ved on the court their offense is barely I don’t even think it’s quite a point better than League average right and I know everything that
You just said and you brought up the point about skola but I don’t know maybe you’re right about that because it us is such a defensively slanted roster outside a lot of those guys um but yeah I I would just like to see a little bit more of an offensive punch when they’re
Both out there so I don’t know I I don’t know why I’m making it hurt Fred Van vet a little bit more I don’t know why I’m taking it out on him but I am and that’s where he ended up in my book let’s go to
Maybe the hardest player for me to place this season Bradley Beal of the Phoenix Suns did you forget Bradley Beal I did for get Bradley Beal completely forgot tell me about Bradley Beal well I mean how do you think of Bradley Beal as a player do you do you think of him as
Just sort of like a a Joe Mo or don’t you think of him as like a pretty pretty big impact offensive player well in terms of Bradley Beal what I’ve always liked about like I enjoyed watching him like in the past for the Wizards just because of how valuable he is moving off
The ball like even when they didn’t have a lot of offensive Talent he was still doing a great job of you know getting into those openings getting he’s really good at contorting his body to make some of these short mid-range types of jumpers like his legs are kind of
Splayed all over the place and he’s making them so I mean if that’s the kind of Bradley Beal we’re getting and he’s next to guys like Deon Booker and Kevin Durant I can see him squeezing in and getting some value that way but also like those are two guys that are going
To like to shoot a little bit more in isolation so maybe he’s not getting as much value especially if he’s not spacing the floor and shooting the three as well as you know Bradley Beal of old used to be and defensively I we’re talking about a guy that’s historically
Been one of the worst defensive guards in the league and so when you put that all together I I don’t know maybe I didn’t forget him Ben well he hasn’t played well I mean that’s that’s part of what makes makes this so tricky we had him on the sub Allstar team multiple
Times in the past I think last year he was injured and and we did not consider him because he was injured but he’s certainly been a player who has been in this area as a player uh maybe you know he’s made an All-Star team um or maybe multiple all-star teams things like that
Based on the value of his offense but you look at what’s happening in Phoenix a the statistical profile has not been particularly good which is why you probably left him out of your mind for this whole conversation but he also is it’s a little bit like Kyrie Irving like
He is more talented than most of these other second third option guard players just in terms of pick and roll they have him run a lot of pick and roll point guard actions lately attacking Closeouts finishing or scoring in isolation or just you know going to work and transition he’s really really talented
But but you look at his numbers with Booker and Durant on the court 19 points per 75 on plus 7% efficiency I like the efficiency part I like the fact that he’s shooting 39% but Cody he’s taking under two free throws per 75 possessions he’s playing a very small third role
When they’re on the court his offensive load is 32 means he’s about 32% of the time directly involved in the Action League League average is like 27 or 28% so it’s a small role they’ve played 400 minutes together they’ve had good success which I like they’re plus 13
That makes me think like okay that’s interesting that’s pretty good what you’re doing then they go off the court and we get like old Bradley Beal um he’s averaging like 30 points per 75 on League average efficiency takes nine free throws per 75 because he has the
Ball lot and he’s attacking when he plays with only one of Booker and Durant which has been most of his minutes it’s not it’s not motivating it doesn’t move me it’s about 23 points per 75 on negative efficiency uh the teams haven’t been great the sun’s outcomes in those
Situations with he and Booker are getting killed together when they’re out there he and Durant are basically dead even and you said it as an outside shooter it can be a mixed bag 33 to 36% in those lineups from downtown so I I don’t know what to do with him
If you make me choose I’m going to say not a sub allall star this year okay yeah good then I don’t feel so bad leaving them off but again this is the guy that I need a little bit more data with right I need to see the Suns team
Really make it into the later rounds and I need to see Bradley Beal in the playoffs again because I know he’s had success in the past like when John Wall and Bradley Beal were were making it into a couple rounds in the playoffs he looked good right I don’t think Bradley
Beal is getting cooked or anything in the playoffs so you know maybe it’s still there and maybe I’ll be eating my words in a few months let me give you another one who also has played quite poorly this season but we have thought highly of in the past and is you know
From a skill standpoint you can make the argument that he should be in this group Darius Garland of the Cleveland Cavaliers when Darius Garland shares the court with Donovan Mitchell this season 18 points per 75 plus 1% true shooting 32% from three I think his defense has issues it’s really really uninspiring
When he’s out there alone I think you get more of what you would see if he could run the ship I mean I just think he needs to have his own team basically he’s 26 points 25 points per 75 his efficiency is around League average his passing numbers go up
Uh his free throw Spike his three-point shooting percentage goes up the offensive rating isn’t too much worse than when he’s out there with the uh red hot Donovan Mitchell so to me there’s a horrible fit there but also Garland is not I I want him to like slide next to a
Player player like that and succeed and a he just hasn’t played well this season B there’s there’s injuries there’s poor playoff performances from last season it’s a similar thing to Beal like I’m I’m I’m looking at a very talented player and I’m not sure what to do I’m
Very confused by this I think we need we need like a department to go and check out what’s going on at the Cavaliers cuz none of it makes sense like if you told me that Moy and Garland were to miss like 20 games and the Cavaliers would
Just be the best team in the league I I would laugh you out of here I would and I think a big theory for me for why Darius Garland why I was so high on him in past seasons is I was like this is Mark Price this is 2023 Mark Price this
Is 2024 Mark price but Mark price would be able to coexist very well next to other high-end talent and when I see Darius Garland isn’t just thriving next to like Mitchell it kind of blows my mind I’m like this is a theory of Darius and if Darius Garland if like you say
I’d like to see him on his own team I don’t know if he’s good enough like right now to really run the ship of his own team and lead them to like a high level office I think like he needs to be the Mark Price to really kind of to add
On to already a coexisting offense that’s there already so I’m not really sure he looks nice the passing still looks great I think there’s some weird turnover stuff that like I don’t have a deep dive film study to go with here but I don’t know if he’s being bothered by
Size a lot more I don’t know what it is I have a lot of theories like that but I don’t have anything like hardcore to point at and being this is what’s going on with Darius Garland shout out to uh Mike Conley you mentioned him earlier he’s like 46 years
Old playing good basketball in Minnesota shall we finish up with the wings can I shout out one guy that didn’t make it but I I want to shout him out because he’s been cooking you’re not allowed to do any more shout outs okay that’s it you’re out youve reached your quota of
Shout outs for the show i’mna speak out I’m going to speak out this one Ben I’ve liked Kobe White Kobe white has looked nice yeah oh yeah he he’s like really coming on he’s getting very interesting yeah I I I don’t know what to do with
Any of the Bulls I was going to just save this whole bull segment let’s just start with the bulls we’re going to do Wings let’s start with the bulls uh we didn’t talk about Nicole lavich he’s a pretty good basketball player but we didn’t talk we didn’t talk about him for
A reason okay they have Kobe white at point guard he did not make my sub Allstar team he’s he’s playing very well lately um they also have two wings that have traditionally either been in the All-Star or sub Allstar range Zack LaVine and dear D rozan this team is
Playing at 500 they are on Pace to win about 40 or 41 NBA basketball games in 2024 where it’s really hard to win games and we shouldn’t take stuff like that for granted we should not take it for granted that the Cavs are like 35 and 16 without two of their young
Horses but what do the Bulls have a sub Allstar what do I I I didn’t know what to do I started watching the Bulls I don’t know what to do I don’t know what to do with any of them I did end up putting D Rosen down as a sub Allstar
Like I did I think I don’t know they had such a slow start and I think that really like you know clogged up people’s brains for how they were actually performing but for a period of time the Chicago Bulls have been like like you just pointed out a very adequate team in
A league where not every team is very adequate right like it’s very easy to fall back into like oh we’re not quite doing as well as we can can but I don’t know what what is the record do they have a better record than the Lakers right now oh they’re very close the
Lakers might be better I think the Bulls are one or two games under 500 as of recording this and the Lakers I think are still over right something like that I so this is a math of it that I just don’t get this is the math I don’t get
This is my my Rockets take where I’m like if van vet and shenon are better on offense then their team should be better offensively and then the bolts are kind of the other side where it’s like I don’t know man somebody has to be like a
Sub All-Star level type of guy here I’m like can you be a 500 Team without a top 50 player does that does the math work I think the answer is yes if you’re four other players are all top 80 players um oh my God I forgot another player who I
Might have struggled the most with Alex kuso Alex Caruso is really good Alex Caruso is in that Danny Green zone of like you’re so good as a strong role player you’re so perfect as a strong role player that the fact that you’re a little better shooting you’re a little
Better attacking Closeouts you can pass you’re so good defensively does that total value package get you into the back end of the saw ballar range I don’t know but like this is the math to me is you can make a team like that pretty good but what’s their ceiling D rozan
Was the one who I might have come the closest to pulling the trigger on I’m kind of out on D rozen though I kind of I kind of both love demard de R rozan and also like when your when your team is better than you every time you’re on
When you’re on the bench like like Demar D Roan’s best play for the last 12 years has been bench that that’s not great right wow like if you don’t know that if you haven’t looked this up are you looking it up they are way better every year when he’s on the bench than
Compared to on the court and then if you look at the playoff series it’s almost even worse it’s the exact same thing in the playoffs dear is one of those guys that you get to the postseason and his ENT entire concept of like a mid-range assassin with low turnovers that can
Create in the middle of the floor it kind of falls apart a little Cody the turnovers go up the shooting falls apart he actually is the lowest sort of high minute high volume scorer in terms of efficiency in the last 25 years there’s just no one with that level of volume
Scoring doing it at that poor efficiency in the playoffs across stretches or his career so I had him uh I I kept going back and forth under D rozan because looking at his history we’ve had him as a two-time sub Allstar and a two-time All-Star including last season and I was like I
Know he was on the line last season but I was like well if he’s a little he’s a little slower this season he’s a little bit worse statistically but he’s still man he’s still got some incredible mid-range game and I think if we were only regular seasoning this concept I
Would have him as a sub Allstar but I think I’m going to go no so you are basically going have this Bulls 500 team with no sub allar I I had I had multiple player I lavine’s all injured and weird I don’t know what to do with him uh
Looking at my notes Caruso is literally the closest purple I have him in the very very last cut of the guards and then D rozan was also very close and I don’t think there’s anyone else I could put in but but the math part to your point the math part I think
In the regular season alone D rozan is a top 50 player okay yeah okay the the Caruso math I’m sorry this is turning into a math equation like Ben and I are just sitting here with like a chalkboard we haven’t done any numbers we haven’t done just
Because we say the word math doesn’t mean we’ve done actual we haven’t done any actual mathematics well okay so Alex kuso’s load right now throughout the season is 22.5 perfect that is extraordinarily low like my question with that being the 30th percentile again how much value offensively can you
Actually contribute when you have the ball that little and you know his shooting has improved I think he looks like a pretty viable shooter right now he can’t just leave him alone but he’s not Steph Curry he’s not bending defenses with his off ball movement and
Like all this other kind of crazy stuff so I don’t think you can say he has a ton of latent value offensively how much value can you actually have when you have that such that low of a load uh not too much I think is the answer
Well here’s the thing if you are a player like that we saw this with Draymond Green what you want to do when you’re around better Talent is find a way to amplify that Talent find a way to be a piece in those lineups that doesn’t
Cause the floor to fall out right find a way to be a piece in that lineup that says hey if you’re double teaming my guy I’m G to make 40% of my open shots hey if I need to make certain extra passes I’m going to Robert Ory this thing
Through and through right I’m either going to hit this three attack this close out or make a beautiful extra pass and when you can be that element in those lineups next two great players I think the answer is like Cody in other situations you’re not very good you’re
Not moving the needle offensively but in those situations if you can help those lineups keep the floor relatively High then on the other end of the Court we get all your defensive value that’s where you’re pretty good I don’t know if it’s good enough to get
Caruso there though I don’t think it is I don’t think it is let’s uh let’s talk about some wing star we’re never going to get out of here kawh Leonard he could be the he could be the MVP but there’s like eight guys that could be the MVP right now Devin Booker Paul
George Kevin Durant LeBron James Jason Tatum Anthony Edwards Jimmy Butler I don’t have to think too hard all stars any anyone any complaints any thoughts we good there it’s literally everyone I have okay now we have a few more players left uh to discuss and then we can finish the
Podcast it came up earlier so I I want to jump right to it you thought I was going to ask you about Chris Middleton how are you feeling about Chris Middleton um tell me if I’m biased let me let me float something out there the answer is
The answer is yes you’re biased when it comes to Chris Middleton Chris Middleton who I should say I have is a two-time thinking basketball sub Allstar All-Star I had him on two all-star teams before he started to get old and injured I think Mr Christopher Middleton might be the most underrated
Player in the NBA right now right now right now well he’s playing Super well which makes this all right we’re gonna have to we’re GNA go into Cody’s World here for a second I think we have to here let me let me play a game let me
Play a game and it looks very different when you take Chris out of the lineup here but in 650 minutes do you want to guess what the net rating of the Bucks are when Giannis Dame and Chris Middleton are on the court together who was coaching that team which of the
Three coaches was coaching these players during these minutes all of them all of the minutes Ben uh plus 16 plus 17.9 do I do I that’s unbelievable if you take Middleton out if you look at like Dame lineups if you look at Giannis lineups if you look at Dame and Yannis
Lineups it doesn’t matter they’re nowhere near that it’s not like Chris Middleton is just riding the coiles here I think Chris Middleton’s passing game is incredibly undervalued his lobs to Giannis he just has it down like they have like the the Dennis Johns and Larry Bird connection where they just like
Psychically know what’s going on and it probably helps that Giannis is one of the best lob finishers basically ever and one of the maybe the best Rim finisher ever like that definitely helps but when you can like splice in the fact that Chris Middleton doesn’t really rely
On athleticism and can just kind of probe around before being like all right I’m going to lean back and hit this little mid-range jumper he’s hitting the three-point shot I I don’t know as like a a guy that can take the some of the bulk of like some pick and roll action
He can play on some weak side stuff he can create out of that situation I don’t know man the defense is definitely not what it used to be like six years ago like he’s probably honestly at this point he might be a negative at this point but offensively I think he’s
Pretty fantastic the defense yeah the defense is the thing he’s he’s had a really good offensive season very very quietly in our impact metrics he is above the 80th percentile in every impact stat and most of that is coming from offense where he’s even slightly better mid-range shooting this season he is in
The 95th percentile in mid-range field goal percentage 53% from the mid-range on eight mid-range shots you know Chris loves his mid-rangers and 41% on wideopen threes in the last three seasons you add to that the passing is has really been quite good this season from Chris Middleton um my concern is
The age and the wearen tear and what that means defensively in the playoffs because he is a little bit slower I don’t I don’t know what’s going on in Milwaukee you you want talk about math what’s going on in Milwaukee the Bucks are like 37 and 16 with a point
Differential of plus one they’ve had three different coaches they’ve lost like six of their last seven games they get blown out constantly in big moments but we’re going to say they have three All-Star players it’s it it’s extremely confusing um it’s because they’re like plus 18 when they’re all
Together in the MVP conversation Hey listen how are they plus 18 when they’re all together and their point differential is like this what is it is it sounds like noise it sounds like noise don’t do this it well do you what do you think there’s some alchemy taking place when the three
Of them are on the court that when you remove one the entire house of cards falls apart is that what I actually do cuz have you seen the rest of the wings that Milwaukee has like they’re not going to add anything off like like Doc refuses to play like you never mind this
Is isn’t a buck podcast but I do think there’s an Alchemy in terms of like the rest of the talent that’s on the team but also I think that yis and Chris at this point have a really really nice chemistry that’s uh pretty undervalued this is where in the YouTube
They’re going to put the timestamp one hour 20 minutes whatever it is they’re going to say we missed Cody we missed Cody right here we got some vintage bucks Cody coming out you know I’m speaking the truth YouTube you know it I know you’re really moving me you’re
Really moving me on Chris Middleton right now um you mentioned Desmond Bane I’m going to stick I’m going to stick with Desmond Bane as a sub ballstar what is it happening what do you mean I agree with you but have you like I don’t know man I guess the impact because he’s struggling
A little bit Yeah because he’s struggling quite a bit yeah it’s one of those things that I’m not convinced that the first half of the Memphis season and the statistics that have been attached to Desmond Bane based on that season are reflective of of him you know whatever
That comes out to being like the 94th best player instead of the 48th best player or whatever I’m not I’m not convinced yeah I have a I’m looking at a blend of of impact stats and he’s 102nd in the league I’m not convinced that that’s representative of Desmond Bane as
A player so I’m gonna just stick him on there we don’t have to talk about it if you don’t want to to me Desmond Bane is like the definition of a sub Allstar like what I think it’s Desmond Bane yeah yeah uh how about somebody who just did some work on
He’s been in this range before I can’t remember if I’ve ever put him on the sub Allstar team but he’s he’s finally he’s won me over a little bit in New York ogan anobi sub Allstar okay I don’t know if it’s because I just like work with
You all the time but why am I also valuing OG so much more than when he was with like the Toronto people are going to be like it’s cuz he’s in Canada and you hate us no it’s because the Toronto people pushed him too hard on us the
Toronto people were like OG’s OG’s the Defensive Player of the Year by a landslide and he he’s a top 25 player and I was like I was like now wait a second he’s good def he’s really good defensively and also like he’s a good player but he’s not he’s not a top 25
Player I think the difference is here there’s enough that’s happened in New York in a different situation in Toronto there’s like six guys built that are 66 with seven foot wingspans that have the exact same skill set and it turns out that if you take maybe the best of those
Guys as a as a connective tissue piece and you put them on another team it’s really easy to see how nice that fits into this sub Allstar kind of like good Defender it’s it’s the Alex Caruso mold we just discussed but like leveled up a
Little bit can I break the rules and say a couple guys that are in the same category and I want you to tell me what you think about all of them because if you’re granting oan and Obi here I want to know what you’re thinking about Jaden McDaniels and Herb
Jones I think that OG is overall better than McDaniels he’s the closest uh I don’t think McDaniels I don’t know if I would say Jaden McDaniels is as good overall at everything I think he’s like a little bit worse at everything herb Jones is probably the farthest behind in that
Group yeah these are guys I wrote down Cody these are all guys I wrote down but I’m gonna go OG OG and the sub All-Star team um France Vagner mhm you want to talk about like a quintessential sub allar not quite an Allstar yet but also
Like I mean to me he’s clearly the best magic player yeah yeah has any by the way by the way we should we shouldn’t it’s not good podcast the obvious this is obvious it’s not good podcasting um in the last month in case people are wondering why we we
Got a little uh uh smitten right there in the last month fron vogner have you seen what he’s been doing no but I imagine it’s just wonderful things uh he’s in the top 25 in our BPM box plus minus model he’s averaging 26 points per 75 on plus 5% efficiency the passing has
Been better as ever he’s he’s having these big games scoring wise taking over the game for the magic Orlando is plus eight per 100 possessions with fron vogner on the court in the last month 15 points better than when France goes to the bench just as a reminder his
Teammate Paulo in the negatives when he’s on the court so I just think fron is fron is getting there man fron is getting there yeah I think he’s a really nasty little Defender too like I don’t think he’s like an all defensive type guy but he’s he moves the needle a
Little bit defensively he does move the needle quite a bit he uses his size his position his awareness so fron is going in there um we have a couple more to discuss and then we can wrap this very short brief podcast couple more I’m I’m just going to say three names I’m going
To have them on my let me let me say four names oh my good say four names oh this is so brutal I’m going to say four names Aaron Gordon male Bridges Brandon Ingram Jaylen Williams Oh my God would you like to discuss any of them so okay
What did you just you said you said Aaron Gordon Aaron Gordon male Bridges Brandon Ingram Jaylen Williams I have three of those guys in my sub Allstar I have three I have three in my sub allar as well now the question is I don’t think we have the same three
I we need to have a discussion about I personally need to have a discussion about one who do you have as sub All Stars should I say the one I don’t have a sub allar okay let’s just agree Jaylen Williams is just easy that’s absolutely
He’s he’s a slam dunk that dude is a baller he’s incredible he’s incredible yeah okay let’s do it that way I say the next easy one can we just say that Brandon Ingram Brandon Ingram is the next easy one yes yes Brandon Ingram vacillates between why can’t you be an
All-Star and what’s going on with you that puts them right Square he’s a perfect sub Allstar that Brandon Ingram this is amazing I have questions I have so many questions coming up now what’s happening I have questions about a certain player that plays in Brooklyn yeah I I I have Mel
Bridges and Aaron Gordon and I have them right next to each other and I I need to talk about it okay my dog agrees you if you can hear her who would you like to start with Mel let’s talk about Mel bres let’s do it I think I think he’s a swell
Defender yeah I think I think I think he’s a swell perimeter Defender and uh I I I like I like when he does three-point shots and I like when he attacks Closeouts yep he is a similar mold of the other players we have discussed that like like an OG and
Anobi yeah but I don’t think he good defensively I don’t think he’s quite as good defensively yeah um here’s okay here’s the thing M Bridges is a player like cards on the table I don’t know if it was last year I don’t know if it was two years ago but I
Think I tweeted that if I were to have a team I want mcale bridges on my team right he’s kind of a perfect sort of jack knife sort of dude but like like sort of like jiren Jackson being thrust into his new role or even Drew holiday
Being like reduced so much male is just so wildly miscast in what he’s doing in Brooklyn right now like I I I just don’t know like I’m losing I don’t know I want the vision is the vision is fading is what you’re saying vision is fading here’s the other thing okay sorry
I’m getting like numbers here I’m getting worked up I’m getting emotional it was like that one time I don’t know who we were talking about but I got choked up talking about him um that was a magical moment and I’m just kind of vamping right now to look up some
Numbers here but when you talk about like the MTH this is the best part of the podcast when you talk about the MTH CRA can you explain to me with their personnel how Brooklyn has a worse than average defense like can can somebody like walk me through can somebody make a
PowerPoint presentation and tell me how Brooklyn’s defense is worse than League average tell me anybody anybody who plays on Brooklyn M bridges yeah Nick clck Clon who else yeah um does dronny Smith Dorian finny Smith okay yeah who else there some really solid defensive players El who who else done that team
Who knows cam Thomas cam th but cam Thomas is sending the defense directly in the other direction Spencer dwit is not on the team anymore spw he is it’s it’s not helping your case Dron Sharp plays minutes cam Johnson cam Johnson uh Lonnie Walker sending it in the other direction Dennis Smith
Jr it’s it’s it’s a mixed bag they don’t have you watched Dennis Smith Jr played defense you think think he’s an elite Defender he might be the best defender on the team oh my he’s unreal he’s so frisky out there I’m also a big lover just I don’t know this
Team should be better they should be like a plus three defensive team in a b what is happening this is amazing this is amazing right now I have a I have questions about Aaron Gordon for you Cody okay what would Aaron Gordon be without Nicole yic that’s a great
Question don’t we have a lot of years of evidence yeah well like the last two years for instance Aaron Gordon first of all he plays a lot of his minutes with joic uh Cody’s Cody’s mentioned this before on prior podcast like the percentage of minutes that Duos play
Together Gordon has played about 83% of his minutes in the last two years with nicoa yic so he’s 18 points 62% true shooting with joic without joic he’s 19 points 54% true shooting and interestingly his three-point shooting percentage has been way way better in the 500 minutes
Without yic so if you if you factored in the three-point shooting luck if you normalized the three-point shooting and said Aaron you have to shoot the same on threes as when the best passer ever is on the court with you or when you’re out there by yourself he would be like 50% I
I mean would have to do it off the top of my head but it’s bad he would lose a lot more on those scoring numbers he’s a nice extra passer I quite like that he’s a nice Defender is he as good defensively as OG anobi no um he has nice feel for reading
The game setting screens uh getting inside seals so he can catch lobs he I give him a ton of credit because of the passing and learning to play in that Denver style and being such a great piece in that Denver style and so I
Think all of is to say Cody that if we just took it at face value Aaron Gordon in in Denver in the regular season I think he’s a sub Allstar but what if you put him on any of the other 29 teams also what has been happening with my
Hair as we go through this episode you seen this sorry I actually don’t like watch your hair the whole maybe I should maybe we should hair it’s gotten in my face it’s going it’s oh my goodness let me let me can I take you the time machine
Just like 15 16 years 16 is it a DeLorean let’s you know whatever gets us back to like 2007 the safest all right let’s say it’s 2007 all right that’s a hot tub I think 2007 okay 2000 that might actually be when when the hot tub came out um 2007
Would you say Shawn Marian is an All-Star yeah I would yeah yeah if Shawn Maran was not next to Steve Nash would you say that Shawn Marion is an All-Star I feel like wasn’t wasn’t he really he was really good defensively like when he was in Dallas if you he was
Older in Dallas but if you took a younger better version of that in Dallas yeah I think he’d be an All-Star too oh okay you don’t notice what’s happening with my hair this is just wild I can’t figure out what’s going on where who do we have left to
Discuss I’m still like reeling on this this net thing I was trying to pull up some numbers right now so just just for fun okay I have two more two more to discuss you go ahead just for fun when uh Claxton M Bridges and Dorian finny Smith are on the court together their
Defensive rating is like 11.7 and actually if we look at League average defense that’s like Five Points better maybe maybe I should relax a little bit maybe they’re actually pretty solid when they’re together calm down give them give them a little positivity slow your roll okay Scot Scotty Barnes
Made the All-Star team and Jaylen Brown made the All-Star team uh in the past I have had Jaylen Brown as a sub Allstar for three years I put him on the 2022 All-Star team the year the Celtics went to the finals I had him as a sub Allstar sorry I got
That backwards sub Allstar 2022 Allstar last year I’m going back to sub Allstar with jayen brown I’ve had enough of Jaylen Brown as as an Allstar no I he’s in the he’s in the purple Zone I don’t know what to do I’m gonna go on the
Other side of the line and I’ll do the same thing with Scotty Barnes I’ll have Scotty Barnes as a sub Allstar in the purple Zone as well what do you make of barnes’s impact stuff what’s happening with his impact is it good no no it’s actually like
Shockingly it’s shocking no but but it’s it’s it’s divisive because like EPM still likes them so epm’s baking in more like tracking tracking box score stuff and saying like ah maybe we think the onoff numbers that are bleeding value in Toronto are fluky or are noise-based we
Talked about this already so I don’t want to blabber it I think the thing with Barnes is he’s not really an offensive initiator but he gives you some of that he’s a good pass not a great score so there’s a lot of like extra little offensive value that
You could parse out there but if you give him a bigger role what does that look like does it make it look better than it is and then defensively he’s very good and very versatile but uh probably not at a place where like just his defense alone like if if he came
Back next season and he was a monster defensively I think that elevates him quite a bit into the into the top players category basically I would say based strictly on the eye test I really like Scotty bar I think he does you know the defense isn’t perfect but I think
He’s really switchable he’s got a really high motor he’s active all over the place and the passing game offensively if you go to that side of the ball um he’s a nice secondary passer like you said you don’t want him to be like the main primary type of guy but I think if
You slide him next to their high-end offensive talent I think he does he would do well in that sort of situation so it’s like a what is it that you and Kyle are bringing up the old 20 or O2 what what’s the1 01 D1 where do you
Where do you you stack up as a sort of offensive and defensive player on a good team that kind of thing I think he could be like a really solid O2 or even like as an O3 I really like what he’d be able to do as like a connective um offensive
Guy so I I like Barnes as a sub Allstar okay are we doing are we summarizing this at this point we’re going to wrap this up and summarize we have to make some choices I thought we made choices we did we did make choices but we at the
End we always review we say like in the Big Man category we had Nicole yicel andb Yannis Dupo Anthony Davis bam onab bio CAD holgren Victor wanyama christops porzingis and Lowry marinan as the allstars right yeah that sounds good okay and then in the sub Allstars we had
Carl Anthony towns Draymond Green Rudy goar Pascal seum Deus sabonis Zion Williamson Al shenen Jarrett Allen and jiren Jackson junior am I forgetting anyone nope okay uh in the guards for for Allstars we have Shay gildas Alexander Tyrese halberton Luca donic Donovan Mitchell James Harden Jaylen Brunson Tyrese Maxi Dame Lillard Jamal
Murray Steph Curry Trey young dearen fox and that is it for the All-Star guards for the sub Allstars we have Kyrie Irving Derek white CJ McCollum Drew holiday lamelo ball and then we had this decision to make right with Fred Van vet and Colin seon
Uh I will go I will go out on both of them okay I will go that’s it those are all my All-Star guards that’s it I accept that okay and then the wings finally kawii Leonard Devin Booker Paul George Kevin Durant LeBron James Jason Tatum Anthony Edwards and Jimmy Butler
Are the Allstar Wings and the sub Allstar Wings Jaylen Brown Scotty Barnes Jaylen Williams Brandon Ingram Mel Bridges fron Vagner OG anobi Desmond Bane did we say Bridges was in I don’t know what we said actually we kind of I kind of blacked out for a while there
Yeah I think I got I think I have to go bridges in okay it’s really interesting though to like take that archetype and think about it with an OG an anobi and like compare them as players because I feel like OG moves the needle more
Defensively can I say I I I think herb Jones is being slept on a little bit here as a sub star I I think he should be considered a little bit more wow wow okay I think Caruso is the better version of herb Jones how about that interesting yeah they’re very I
Think they’re very different archetypes really I do they defend a lot of positions I think Caruso is a much better passer I think pass herp Jones a better shooter I don’t think har Jones is a better shooter than Alex Caruso no you mean if you’re just looking at like
Outside outside shooting Alex Caruso three-year wideopen three-point shooting 38% oh wow that’s good from downtown 51% from the mid-range herb Jones 34% from downtown 27% from the mid-range that’s where I lose that’s where I lose it with herb I just think he’s a worse version
Of of that okay yeah how did it feel how did it feel to come back and do is there any other names you want to mention do you just want to yell Jaylen Johnson into the waves or something I do love Denny AIA does that make you feel good
Or something I do love some Denny AIA Walker Kessler with more minutes would definitely be in consideration but he’s just not there I I really I think we talked about Nick claxon last year but the Nets are just weird to me yep y you you know what’s weird Yousef nurkic has
Like really good regular season stats I just don’t trust it isn’t that isn’t that wild yeah I think I feel that who are we El we Dyson Daniels got injured today that’s sad Dyson Daniels why why do you have to bring that up he rules
How close I know wi how close is jayen sugs I was gonna ask you if you had Jaylen sucks as an Allstar I was gonna ask you right now yeah I don’t and I don’t think he’s really like I had J I had Jaylen Suggs in the category of like
You’re you’re you’re very close to me being able to talk about you in the sub All-Star podcast that was the category I have him in I think if I were to rank the players that are not sub Allstar level that I’d want on my team Jaylen
Sugs is number one yeah yeah he’s in that next tier of everyone we didn’t talk about today and then there’s Jaylen sugs yeah yeah to support us patreon.com thinking basketball I think that’s the website I’ve lost all oxygen in my brain at this point after we went
Through 67 NBA players in the last 90 minutes I felt like we deep dived all of them what do you do at Pat patreon.com thinkink basketball that’s where you get the stats and we got the Playoff Series stats we have the regular season stats we have team stats we have all kinds of
Things um that you can look up that we used to research podcasts and videos and things like that Cody you you made it man how did it first first podcast as a dad yeah and here now I’m starting to think like man Isaiah hartenstein is is an interesting player too he’s really
Fun to like that Nick team is just is is really really fun to watch they just have so much heart Jaylen Brunson started crying after a regular season win and I’ve never fell in love with a player like quicker like I I loved Jaylen Brunson but like that dude it’s I
Hate the like he’s got that dog in him but like when I was watching that I’m like this dude’s got that dog in him like this is incredible it’s the only time I’ve ever thought that about the player ever and I like meant it seriously in my
Head uh that’s it that was a fun time I I appreciate it was good it was good to have you back I appreciated doing this thanks for uh hopefully he’ll come back and do a few more before the allstar I mean the all the allstar we’re at the
Allstar um the playoffs and the only thing I was going to say is that if you asked me in the playoffs I think we’d have a completely different team yeah I think you’re probably right yeah I’m I’m stressing about the thies already that’s that’s getting in my head cannot wait
For that um hope you enjoyed this one thanks for listening all the way through and of course hope you’re having a great day
We select the 6th annual Sub All-Stars or “Almost Stars,” the players who are in the next tier after All-Stars. First, we sort out All-Star level players, then discuss players on the fringe and possible Sub All-Stars. Who makes the cut?
#thinkingbasketball
10 Comments
WOOOOOOOO
babe shut the fuck up it’s the god damn 6th annual sub all star Thinking Basketball video
Prime Mike Conley
Finally!
And here I thought, you're naming All-Stars from all your subs 😂
As a minor quibble, I feel that you're slightly under-valuing Gobert. The way that Minnesota uses him has added a little bit of resiliency to his offense even against stronger defenses. There's a concept I learned of in gaming called the "limit test", where you fight recklessly and lose a lot because it helps you learn what you're capable of when pushed to the limit. In Minnesota he's given a lot more of a leash than he was in Utah which has led to more turnovers and less efficiency as he tries to develop parts of his game that has atrophied, trying to run fastbreaks and shoot jumpers and post up, but once the playoffs begin I expect him to cut back on the recklessness and tighten up. Now that Towns, Ant and Conley are all used to playing alongside him and taking advantage of his vertical spacing he's become a much more important part of the Minnesota offense, like a permanent release valve where a pressured driver will just throw the ball up and hope it ends up as a Rudy dunk.
All-Stars BIGs
Joker / Embiid / Giannis / A Davis / Bam / Chet / Wemby / Porzingis / Markkanen
Sub-AS BIGs
KAT / Sabonis / Draymond Green / Allen / Zion / JJJ / Gobert / Sengun / Pascal
All-Star Guards
SGA / Haliburton / Luka / Mitchell / Harden / Brunson / Maxey / Murray / Dame / Steph / Fox / Young
Sub-AS Guards
Kyrie / McCollum / D White / Jrue / Ball
All-Star WINGs
Kawhi / Booker / PG / KD / Bron / Tatum / Ant Edwards / Butler
Sub-AS WINGs
Brown / Barnes /Jaden Williams / Ingram / Bridges / Wagner / OG / Bane
Lauri Utah?
Herb Jones is young and improving shooter. he's shooting 41% on 3.6 attempts per game this season after being at 34% in his first two seasons. Caruso is a career 38% with high variance from year to year, and is in his 7th season. As good as a defender as Caruso is, Herb is 3 inches taller and can cover a much wider range of players.
Howcome this released so late