ESPN Salary Cap Expert Bobby Marks Talks Suns, NBA’s Second Tax Apron & Possible Loopholes

ESPN Salary Cap Expert Bobby Marks Talks Suns, NBA’s Second Tax Apron & Possible Loopholes

Denver Clippers I mean there’s like there’s gonna be there’s going to be a potentially a third of the league that are going to be either apron or first team even teams like Memphis people are like Memphis how’d that happen well when you’re picking seventh and you got a first round pick or you’re Portland and you got seven and 14 and you’ve got Eon and Jeremy Grant and Brogden and Robert Williams and Simons and all these different things like the stuff adds up here so um Phoenix is not the only team that’s kind of in this in this spot right [Music] nowco we’re welcoming in now Bobby marks of ESPN to talk all things salary cap second apron numbers you name it Bobby thank you so much for joining us how are you today I’m I’m good guys how are you doing well you know hopefully better after this maybe we’ll find some things that we could be a little bit more excited about with where the Suns currently sit um but that kind of leads me into my first question Bobby just can you help me understand how on Earth CJ McCollum and Grant Williams let these second tax apron restrictions happen in the first place yeah that’s a probably a question probably a lot of people want to answer like to answer I think I think where the league was looking um the and not speaking for the player association or for CJ or for for Grant I think the other option is you were probably looking at some type of hard cap um a real hard cap where you really were going to basically Force to choose what players you wanted to keep on your roster so if it was you know with with Devin and Kevin then maybe you know you probably wouldn’t been able to do a Bradley Beal type trade um so this is a little bit of a a softer blow I I I think where this is right now and certainly after a year of digesting it and we’ll see you know what all these new restrictions starting it really forces you um to keep your own players or or prioritize keeping your own prayer players um and then eliminating what you can add from the outside I mean that’s that’s the reality as far as um you don’t really get a get out of jail free card like maybe you did a couple years ago go to to maybe make a trade where you can take back 125% of salary um these new rules um you really have to like your roster you really have to like your roster you really have to hit on um maybe some whether it be draft picks lowc cost players guys on minimum deals um you know B Boston can can get away with it you know right now when you have um you know Brown on a brown about to start on a supermax and then Tatum but eventually you’re going to have have to pay Derek white so you’re going to have to figure out there but you have Sam Hower who’s on a minimum contract so it kind of balances out but yeah these these new rules are um extremely extremely um restrictive I I was talking to a team out in Chicago and they said to me um you know my owner asked me can I still make trades you know and and I said to them yeah I can but now it’s like four steps right it’s like a four-step process am I triggering the apron am I sending out cash am I um aggregating contracts all these different nuances that that just weren’t there beforehand um so when you put pen to paper last uh April it looked good but now I think you’re going to start feeling a big big time squeeze here I uh I’m a little frustrated because even the day it was signed yeah I couldn’t believe it I was like wait doesn’t this hurt veterans down the road and it just doesn’t make any sense with that being said how come there wasn’t any you know maybe some maneuvering in terms of the way the NBA cap does work in in terms of you know throwing in uh contracts uh being you know wav and and extended so that way extended for a longer period of time at a lower rate maybe or maybe some type of other exceptions that you could use as as a franchise like they have in other leagues yeah I mean we had the amnesty Clause at one time um that that was in 200 um 2011 CBA um there was the amnesty clause and we used it in in um in New Jersey we had signed Travis out uh Travis Outlaw the year before and then you know 8 million back then was a lot of money and we wound up using the amnesty clause on him and it would basically wiped his you still have to pay him but it wiped his number off um and that’s when a new CBA came in so it kind of gave you that Financial flexibility to hey maybe you have one bad contract on your roster to kind of shed it um the wave and stretch provision um how it is right now it is certainly limited right so if you have a I’m trying to give an example let’s say you have a player on your roster who’s got a year left well the most years is three years that you could stretch it um so you’re you’re kind of limited as far as you know you’d love to stretch it over six or seven years um it’s different than the NFL where you can restructure contracts um you can’t do that in the uh in the NBA basically it’s a buy app as far as Buy reducing the cost there um so yeah the rules are and I mean 90% of these contracts are guaranteed I mean that’s the other thing there is that we live in a league where most contracts are guaranteed um so as I said like you better like whoever you sign um whoever you trade for um you better like who they are and you better hope that fits and that’s the D you know free agency is you know was a crapshoot because it’s I always call it like the honeymoon period right like what looks good on paper um maybe doesn’t always translate there and um you know I’m not not saying what you know Phoenix was what was able to do like I liked like you can go back and everything I’ve written I liked what they did like I really did like I I lik the Durant trade I understood like and you guys have a better perspective like where they were with that roster and I think you kind of maybe hit had hit a limit there certainly when you get your the Dallas series probably exposed a lot of things um that game seven how it ended I understood the be trade probably my only um argument against that what I I would loved to have him eliminate the no trade clause as part of the deal like I would have loved to seen that but you know that’s hindsight um and I understood why they did that you know basically because these new rules were about to start um within you know in a year and it’s like you know what why Boston went out and got holiday way the Clippers went out and got Harden why all these Lillard in Milwaukee you had a timeline to go out and and and do these uh do these deals here um and I understand where Phoenix is as far as you know continuity and everyone says well you got to break up these three guys no you don’t like you this is who you are right like this is who you are for right now and you got to kind of have to uh to see it through here so um but yeah I get it like I wish some of the rules were like the NFL where maybe you can restructure contracts or maybe you can um you know you would love to re restructure the Bradley Beal contract where you say you know what we’re going to limit we’re going to reduce your $50 million number to 30 and then we’re going to give you a um deferred compensation you know four years from now where you know if you’re not on a roster that $20 million will still be owed back to you yeah I wish it was the NFL too Bobby so so I got a question Bobby um about we all know the suns are over the second apron I have a question about some of the contracts going into the summer for instance Eric Gordon uh you know Drew Eubanks he has they got player options we got cap holdes on Royce O’Neal are those player options and cap holdes calculated into the second apron uh and how does that work um are they already pre-calculated or does something have to happen for them to count towards the second April yeah so the player the guys with the player options and there’s a bunch of them right with uh with Eubanks and Gordon and okoi and Lee um you know that that group of guys considering that they are under contract still um those count right so your that is determined as salary um what doesn’t count right now until that player is signed is your first round pick okay I mean I still Factor it in there just in case you do keep that first round picks don’t count until they’re signed uh Royce O’Neal doesn’t count cap hold doesn’t sign uh doesn’t count here um so there are you know mechanisms there that you do have I guess a little bit of flexibility I would I would recommend um if you were in if I was in Phoenix with some of these guys with free agents and I think okoji and Lee are a little bit different because they were signed with uh with non- bird rights and your numbers a little bit higher I would tell Eric Gordon I would tell Drew Eubanks to opt out of your contract okay and to go out and shop for a deal and if you can come back um if you can get a sign a deal with another team great and if not we’ll have a minimum waiting for you but what happens is because those guys sign these two-year deals you’re not getting charged the uh two years of service number so for example like Eric’s number is like at three and change his number would now be like $2.1 million so he would still get the three but because it’s a one-year deal now it lowers his number from a cap hit and it helps you at least towards the apron and who knows maybe there is a deal down the road where you know I don’t think that’s the priority of ownership to you know we have to save we have to get under you know $6 million but you never know down the road if that that could help you there huh that’s fascinating um Bobby this is a question we saw that in real quick we Montes Harold did that in Philadelphia he opted out last year um he tested the market he eventually came back and instead of Philly having like a $2.8 Million number was like at 21 and it helped it played a role when they were able to go get do the Harden trade as far as the ability to take back some more money absolutely Bobby this is one we’ve gotten a lot of questions about in terms of when the new league year starts exactly um especially as a team that’s eliminated from the playoffs was it at that point is it on July 1 when the League’s New Year start so can you tell the people when do these second tax apron restrictions come into play for Phoenix yeah so it started it started the Monday after the regular season was over the first day of the offseason here for uh some of these harsher restriction rules so if you’re if you’re Phoenix and you’re in the in the second apron now you’re um if you wanted to go out and make a trade right now the inability to aggregate contract so if you wanted to send uh nerkish and n and little out for like a 24 million doll guy you can’t do that um the inability to take back more money it’s basically dollar for dollar now you can you can take back contracts that are aggregated from the other team okay so if you want to send out one guy and take back two you’re allowed to uh to do that uh the inability to send out cash in a trade so if you’re um if you’re Phoenix the night of the draft you can’t go out and buy a pick I mean you do have a first round pick um so of course the um you can’t use your Taxman level exception um you know you could sign buyout guys in the offseason there’s no restriction on buyout guys that’s only during the regular season as far as that rule comes into place as far as going about doing that and and what’s going to happen is um how it impacts teams is I’ll give you an example Minnesota for right now so Minnesota finished the regular season not in the apron right neither apron they’re below the luxury taxx but come July 1 Anthony Edwards McDaniels Conley cat supermax they’re gonna their salaries are going to balloon over the second apron so if they made a deal when their season is over they send out cash in a in in a in a deal they can do that okay because their their salaries do not are not right now it’s for 20 starting July one however it would trigger the apron rules so they would get to July one like wait a minute Phoenix you sent out $2 million you can’t exceed this amount you’ll have to make a trade now to reduce your numbers below that here but yeah I mean I think I think the the the common misconception and certainly because Phoenix has three guys on Max contract like they’re not the only one like they not the only one here like you mean we put out these graphic after each team loses in the playoffs and like Denver Clippers I mean there’s like there’s G be there’s going to be a potentially a third of the league that are going to be either apron or first team even teams like Memphis people are like Memphis how’d that happen well when you’re picking seventh and you got a first round pick or you’re port and you got seven and 14 and you’ve got Eaton and Jeremy Grant and Brogden and Robert Williams and Simons and all these different things like the stuff adds up here so um Phoenix is not the only team that’s kind of in this in this spot right now okay Bobby the real question here that everyone wants to know are there some loopholes that we just haven’t quite figured out yet so for example right is there a realistic way that the Suns could maybe get under the second apron by hypothetically uh unloading Yousef nage $8.1 million contract to a team that maybe that can just absorb that contract and not take something back for the Suns and if so would they no longer be bound by those second apron limitations like are there some loopholes we can with no no that’s that’s that’s a that’s a terrific question I mean like yeah so you could you could go out and do something like that so we’re looking at I don’t know somewhere between six and 7 teams that have cap space this off season um you’ve got to spend it how the new rules are you’ve got to spend 90% of the salary cap by the first day of the regular season so if you’re if you’re Philadelphia and you’ve got 60 whatever five million to spend you’ve got to spend you know 127 million um up to the cap Detroit is another team um San Antonio um Utah Orlando like there’s a list of teams out there so would it cost you would you have to add something to it I don’t know I mean it depends on how that team values a nerk it so once you go under right so you knock that 16 17 million once you’re under then you’re under then you’re you’re a team that is operating as a first apron team or or just the luxury tax team here so there is like kcp and and Denver is an example kyp’s got a player option for next year Denver is considered a second apron team he opts out he goes elsewhere they go under you know the I think the first maybe even the first and second apron and then all of a sudden the all these resources that are weren’t available to you the ability to aggregate contracts the ability to take back more money that now becomes available to you so with that being said loophole number two uh if they were somehow to get into that first apron can they then uh make a trade that that would get the necessary resources back but also it puts them back into that second apron can they still do that kind of thing yeah I mean basically what would happen is is that as long as you’re not using one of the thing the the I guess resources that would trigger it okay so for example let’s say you moved nage and now you’re a first apron team okay and now all of a sudden you want to take back more money in a trade then that would trigger that would trigger the apron or aggregate that would basically re basically would restart everything up um if you moved the number and you wanted to um uh aggregate contracts and take back players and still leaves you below the second apron then you’re allowed to do that here gotcha okay so you can’t go from one apron down to the other apron to try to go back up I got it that’s why we love you Bobby you got it all man all right so I have a question that we gonna stay down this road three team trades yeah okay um I know that it this is a question I I need answered man yeah if you make a three team trade you’re only allow are you allowed to send out one player to every team and aggregate salaries that way as because I know you can’t aggregate salaries but in a three- team trade can you send out multiple players to individual teams yeah so as long as you’re um as long as the contracts are not aggregated together right so like if you’re if you’re acquiring a $15 million player okay and you need to send out and you have two guys making seven and a half and one guy is going to team a and one guy is going to Team B you’re not going to be allowed to do that because it’s considered those contracts are aggregated together to Quire to take back that money um so that in that scenario um would not work fortunately for Phoenix you guys are getting one of the top salary cap guys in the NBA I don’t say that just because I worked with him back in New Jersey and and he was uh he started back in 2011 but matd tellum who I guess he’ll be made official probably sometimes down the road who Phoenix is going to hire is one of the best I mean like he is like creative three teams like all different you know besides everything else that comes with it um if there’s a way to figure out something he’ll be able to figure it out and I think that’s kind of what you know as far as just like you don’t want to think you’re stuck right like we’re stuck with this roster this is what we have not a bad thing but no I think there are ways to go about doing it it’s going to take it’s going to take more creativity than Oklahoma City for example that’s maybe sitting on a lot of money and draft picks and all that all right got another one for you Bobby I’m on fire right now I gotta get you back to back here all right so signing trades the sons are not allowed as a second apron team to receive a player in ass signing trade we have Royce O’Neal yes who’s got a cap hold’s a free agent now y I believe we’re allowed to trade Royce O’Neal in a signing trade um explain a little bit to to to me and then here’s another question loaded on to that y can we give Royce O’Neal more money to kind of find a loophole can we give him a a I wouldn’t say a Max contract but paying a little bit more to try to make a deal and circumvent of these restrictions yeah so Roy when Roy was acquired you inherited his bird rights so the bird rights gives you the ability to exceed the salary cap no matter if you’re a luxury tax team or an apron team doesn’t matter that’s the one thing they allow you to do is basically as I said retain your own free agents so if you want to pay Royce O’Neal two years $20 million and give him a team option in the year two basically the Bruce Brown contract that was signed in Indiana and then flip him on January 15th when his restriction is lifted you can go out and do that and that’s probably like I wouldn’t get caught up like what the L what the luxury tax number would be right now as far as you know we you know he’ll sign a $20 million deal and we’ll say oh it cost them another $100 million it’s really what your luxury tax is at the end of the year it’s not with what it is right now but yeah I mean that’s a way to do it because C certainly um you know signing him and then trading him into in mid January that’s one way to do it and then of course as as far as signing trades as you mentioned signing trades got to be for a minimum of three years first year has to be guaranteed that’s it okay so if you want to move him for you know what you know he agrees to it you do a signing trade um and you want to take back something else you’re allowed to go out and do that oh that’s another trade Avenue obviously the big one for the Suns with trading things is probably attaching one of their two picks that will become trade eligible on draft night to a player salary uh but we gotten a lot of questions about this at at what point does a draft pick like that number 22 pick change from a pick as an asset to a rookie salary that then you cannot aggregate with another player salary yeah it’s a good question so so we let’s fast forward to June 26th um Phoenix has a deal where they’re going to trade the 22nd pick uh and nurkic for example um to another team so basically they are trading the draft rights of that player who hasn’t signed a contract so there’s no value right he counts as zero he counts as zero until he signs his contract and when he signs his contract you’d have to wait 30 days anyway to move that player here so once the Draft starts the Phoenix selects then that basically flips the calendar over so now all of a sudden 2031 becomes available so now we’re looking We’re Not Looking Back we’re looking for we’re looking forward the seven-year rule look looks forward here um so you have 31 you can be um they can trade U and then you can trade the draft rights to that certain player okay good to know now we’ve gotten a lot of questions about that 2031 pick as well yeah um how many years obviously the suns are two for two in terms of being a second tax apron team how many years do you have to be in the tax apron over the next three with those first two for that 2032 pick to be frozen or move to the back of the first round can you kind of explain what that process looks like yeah so 31 isn’t is not froz and that’s in play because basically how the rules are right now if Phoenix finishes the 2425 season when we get to June and they do all the accounting next June and they say Phoenix is the second apron team now all of a sudden 2032 is is frozen so now you’re looking at it in a you know in a in a three-year vacuum as far as as far where your picks are you know it’s frozen there’s a way to get it unfrozen if you’re um if you’re in if you’re out of the out of the second apron I believe three out of four years I would say it’s you know we make a lot to do about that pick um possibly moving from 24 to 14 right there’s a a mechanism that if you’re in the tax I think it’s four years um you can it would all of a sudden ship that I mean you have to make a really concerted effort to do that I mean you really have to to make an effort and by then you know who knows what where Kevin will be who knows where Beal will be you know Deon will still be on that contract so I would say that your 32 pick will probably be Frozen um you can still you can move 31 you know before that happen so I think if you’re looking at it from a trade standpoint I think you would probably want to move 31 I would you know maybe what does the 22nd pick bring you it’s a guy in a lowc cost contract I think it’s a pretty decent draft um hopefully you strike gold where Miami did and Golden State and some of these other teams that were able to get you know three or four your guys and just to clarify for that 2032 pick if it gets Frozen and then it moves to the back of the first round it’s no longer trade eligible right that is once it’s frozen it’s off the board yeah all right so Bobby let’s you just talked about the draft I I’ve been watching your draft combine work and it’s been very impressive man you don’t I appreciate it you done a fantastic job hours of TV is not easy and I’ve enjoyed every minute of it man I’ve been locked in you guys have done a fantastic job my question is one since you’re there and you were doing all that work uh is there a draft prospect that You’ seen in your time down there that may not be getting enough hype that you’re like hey this this kid could be a player and then the second part is what are you seeing from bronnie James uh what’s the uh yeah so so yeah if you can give me that yeah awesome so one of the one of the things um that I’ve done for the last six or seven years is which I love doing it’s a lot of work and time is um I work with agents to help their clients interview prepare them for their interview when they meet with teams so on average I’ve done this year I’ve done about 60 players in the three weeks before the combine uh I started with Jason Tatum seven years ago I think seven years ago and it kind of just built up a network here and it gives me some really good insight into who they are and then I can go on TV and talk about them and really share their story the one player I and I said this on um I think it was Wednesday that I really enjoyed meeting with I enjoyed watching him um at UC Santa Barbara was AJ Mitchell who was a three-year guy um from Belgium um defends like crazy plays Point 65 um good body really competed in the combine the Google machine and Phoenix just skyrocketed right I really I really it just I love guys that can compete in Chicago I know the body of work of what you’ve seen during the course of year played I think he played hurt this year too he told me for most of the year but still was out there um got better um as those other like that’s your three-year guy right that’s a guy that you draft you could probably put him in a game right away so I I enjoyed watching him getting to know him um Brony is interesting because McDonald’s All American coming out of Sierra um Sierra Canyon uh we all know about what happened last July with the cardiac uh you know arrest doesn’t play basketball for basically four or five months right doesn’t doesn’t pick up a ball gets put into a I would say somewhat chaotic situation at USC a team that a lot of people thought were going to be better like things were like chaos there right like off the rails 19 minutes what 27% from three 30 like you know Five Points really nondescript um comes to Chicago I I went out to LA to to talk with him met with him I loved him he was terrific awesome personality engaging got big he’s up to 215 right now like all muscle could play like outside linebacker for you shot the heck out of the ball when I saw him in La shot the heck out of the ball Monday night in the combo right so that raised everyone’s eyes right when you’re shooting 19 to 25 from three I don’t care if there’s three other guys out there still pretty impressive and his mechanics looked really good now we get to Tuesday and now we’re all expecting everything we’re expecting his dad to show up we’re expecting all these different things and he struggled right they had him playing Point um not a point guard doesn’t measure great 61 and a half without shoes so he’s probably what 62 and a quarter so what is he right he’s a small two guard he can defend like crazy right so his comp when he talked to me when he did his media media was Davon Mitchell like I asked like which is great I love players when I ask them like who do you like to watch and who do you like to study and when they say well I like Damen Lillard do you play like Damen Lillard no I just like how he shoots the ball I’m like okay who do you like to watch DAV um you know Davon Mitchell okay why I love how he defends okay so Tuesday he struggled Wednesday they play him off the ball they’ve got Mark Sears from Alabama playing point mark didn’t play the day before because he had a quad injury and then they had um Aj Johnson who was a Fresno kid who played in Australia last year so both those guys played so Brony plays off the ball and plays really well I mean shoots four for 10 but in game one all he would take was a little floater down the lane right like really that’s was kind of like is that only the only thing he has made a step back hit a corner three was really active good on defense so now it’s like okay he can play right like he’s an I think he’s an NBA level player I think gavone moved him up to like 54 on his top 100 he was like at 98 so there’s movement there do I think he’s a first round Prospect probably not I don’t think though do I think he can get drafted I do um is there teams in the 20s or 30s that you think okay remove the dad Factor here right like I it drives me crazy like well if we draft him or is it that coming too like let’s just worry about the player like do I think he can step on an NBA floor next year probably not right I think you would probably see him more in the G League I think he’s a work in development I think he’s an investment two two-year investment and then you could probably see him on on the floor but that’s that’s with most F late first round guys second round picks two-way guys that you’re going to see them with their g-league team here so I think he helped himself that I think he helped himself competing what he does with in his individual workouts over the month will certainly help but I would not be stunned at all when um for our sake because we had two nights of the draft that on day two he gets um he gets selected somewhere here where I don’t know would it be te teams that have multiple picks and you want to take a flyer and you got what you want for somebody that you know would help you I could see that does it make sense if you’re picking 15 to take them and you need a player that might be a little bit more of a reach there oh okay well so it sounds like you’re you’re saying that LeBron James might take a you know nice little vet minimum just to come here is that is that what I heard all that that’s all I heard here let me let me I’m gonna be actually serious in this I like the question I’m gonna actually be serious this I think it would be a disservice for teams not to make the call and ask the question I really do and I like I think there’s I think there’s a multi-step process here I think first of all get your Scouts in a room usually you don’t start doing your board until like the weekend of before the Draft starts so we would bring our guys in like Saturday Sunday Scouts would be doing your top whatever 60 top 75 and you that’s how that you start doing it I do think there’s probably a conversation you have with your Scouts now and say hey give me a preliminary big board right let give me your top 60 top 75 and let’s see where listen if you get it and Bron’s not on there it’s a little bit of a stretch there but I do think there’s a conversation with with the agent um Rich Paul saying hey we have interest in him at 20 I’m just hypothetical we have interest in him at 22 where do you see what’s what’s the what’s LeBron going to do right like you know our situation here like we have this is what we got we have three million bucks right um we have a really appealing developmental program um this is not about the dad this is about you know investing longterm in him all that stuff but I do think it’s worth having the conversation I really do I mean I think every team has to have the conversation it’s so because until you ask you never know couldn’t agree more Bobby I mean M is has been gung-ho from day one of building out that g-league team and getting better at the development of younger players so you know what I’m say Bobby thank you so much for joining us we really appreciate this this was great stuff thank you I appreciate thanks for having me on we’ll see you time thank you everyone of course if you are not already following Bobby on social you absolutely should be at Bobby marks 42

On the latest PHNX Suns podcast, ESPN’s Bobby Marks joined the show to give his thoughts on the Phoenix Suns offseason outlook, restrictions for teams in the second tax apron, possible loopholes for the Suns to pursue, the possibility of adding Bronny James and LeBron James, potential trade avenues for Phoenix, and much more.

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