What’s Next for Darius Garland (with Justin Rowan!) – Cleveland Cavaliers, Cavs News

What’s Next for Darius Garland (with Justin Rowan!) – Cleveland Cavaliers, Cavs News

this is the moment we’ve all been waiting for for the thousands independants and the millions watching around the [Applause] world let’s get ready [Applause] [Music] for Welcome to the junkyard pod today we have an episode of what’s next a series where focus on key players for the Cleveland Cavaliers and what we expect from them this Summer and moving forward joining me today to discuss Darius Garland and where we go from here is a fellow DG loyalist Justin Rowan of the chase toown pod uh thank you for being here how have you been doing since the season ended Tony I’m doing great thank you so much for having me uh it’s uh it’s exciting to to be back on with you uh talking about someone that I expected to take a leap this season and I think there was a lot of circumstances that you know fed into it but then you know I think there’s also uh things with you know decision making and his play in general that it’s still uh still need to break down but you know DG may not have made the leap this season but I got to give you some props man you absolutely did uh your work this season was amazing I I love the video breakdowns everything you guys have been doing on the Pod uh it’s really really it’s it’s an honor to be on with you I really do appreciate it and uh you know I I think when we reflect back on the season this is the time where you should give yourself a little bit of pat on the back buddy oh man thank you so much that that truly does mean a lot and you know what you were the first podcast I did on Chase down back in December 2022 I think that the mailbag episode so come a long way uh thank you so much honestly that that really does mean a lot it’s been it’s been one hell of a year uh and so really do appreciate that and and I like to start each one of these episodes by just kind of recapping That season and summarizing very quickly uh where each player left off so in the case of Darius it was a wild one I know the perception of DG is all over the place as a result of that but Justin how do you view this most recent season for Garland I I view it as a Lost season um like I I still think you know when you look at a season where you come up short or Lost season however you want to characterize it I still think there’s stuff you can learn from it and I know there there’s certainly things that I I hope that DG is going to take away from this season apply it moving forward um but it was just a season of false starts basically um you know in the preseason game I still remember the game against Atlanta where he’s he’s roaming around off ball I think he took like nine threes and a half and then that was kind of it um and then you know obviously having the the hamstring ball and unfortunately to start the year DG Donovan and Carris all ended up having those hamstrings early on uh he comes back and I believe it was his first game back against Indiana uh where he injured his shooting hand uh so and that seemed to you know disrupt not only his ability to dribble uh but his willingness to take threes uh I believe there’s a neck injury there at some point and the jaw breaks and you know it was just one thing after another and uh you know it’s it was an unfortunate season I thought there were times where I saw you know things progressing into the right direction uh whether that be um you know the good finishing at The Rim prior to the gym uh the job being fractured um you know I I thought he started to see some of that three-point volume increase as he got a little more comfortable later in the year but just never was able to stack positive momentum together and for that reason you know it just kind of feels like one of those Lost Years yeah I mean I I agree it was it was such a roller coaster every time you felt like he’s back it was immediately over uh there’s there’s those games against Minnesota I think he had a big game against Philadelphia earlier in the season and it’s like so there were flashes there I know a lot of people I agree it’s a Lost season but a lot of people think that he was just completely like a just a ghost he was gone all year he had those little moments there where you could see that DG still is clearly talented there’s just a lot of factors that play uh the month before the jaw honestly like it was the the last 15 games before the jaw like the the turnovers came back down as you know that the hand injury became less of a factor um he was scoring you know very efficiently 22 points per game the assists were there um like he was putting that positive momentum together it just you know it didn’t carry Beyond those 15 games and I brought this up on the last podcast but it’s funny for you know as amazing as Donovan was this year and how many stretches he carried them when you kind of look back at the best wins that the Cavs had this season the funny thing about them is Donovan didn’t play in any of them right like that win against Denver Denver Minnesota uh Dallas twice uh you know one of Dallas games Darius and Moy didn’t play in it either and they managed to to Win It short-handed oh yeah um you know the the Boston win the the win against Philadelphia that you mentioned in the in season tournament like the top six wins there were the guys finding a way to kind of contribute and I think that’s not a reflection on Donovan in any way shape or form he was clearly the best player on the Cavs but I I think it just goes to show that we had a bunch of talented guys that were able to go out there and produce but getting them all on the same page and all clicking at the right same time just seemed to be such a struggle compared to the year prior yeah I mean just that never-ending Carousel of injuries even especially the ones where it’s like hamstring or the shooting hand where they’re on the floor so everyone just assumes that they’re healthy but everyone on the Cav was dealing with some sort of injuries it just felt like they never were able to quite sync up everything that you wanted to see heading into the year with the addition of Max stru and all that thinking that this was going to be a more cohesive unit there was just so much that play being juggled and I I think there’s a delicate balance that needs to be handled with care but Cav Twitter’s kind of just thrown Darius into the meat grinder and ignored all those disclaimers yeah he’s this year’s Allen right like just Allan such a good example too because how quickly things change yeah and you know Allen that wasn’t a health related thing but you know you have a couple rough games and all of a sudden people are sitting there trying to trade you for Christian Wood because he can shoot right like like that’s that’s what it was offse last offseason and you know I think now you’re seeing people throw out a bunch of fake trades for for role players and stuff like that like find players but like you don’t win in the NBA by tearing down from All-Star caliber players to a bunch of role players like you know finding a Jay Crowder or George Hill isn’t going to be what takes this team to the next level yeah you you might be able to find a player that theoretically fits the team better but if it’s a worse player it’s usually you just don’t win those trades very often and it’s so rare I I mentioned this on my last spt too you think about people want to move Darius and Jarrett this year they’re basically detonating everything that they built their foundations on and it’s just I really I try to think back through NBA history what teams have done that and improved as a result uh it’s it’s really hard to most teams don’t even do that to begin with but to trade two of your key pieces like that and immediately improve I know someone mentioned the Celtics recently with getting rid of Marcus Smart but they didn’t change their foundations of success because you got a Drew holiday you ended up basically filling in that role if the Cavs aren’t going to be trading Darius for another point guard most likely everyone wants a wing whether it’s a star or even some role players whatever it may be so uh yeah I think making the team worse is usually not the goal even if it looks like it makes more sense on paper yeah and in the instance of Marcus Smart that was at the Apex of value um that was after an eight like an eight-year run of him in Boston and you know I I think that’s different than hey you had a down year because of injuries and we’re going to trade you while your value is at its lowest like and then there’s also you know the Dynamics that they had where it was Jaylen brown or Marcus Smart right like there there was some tension there reportedly right so um I I think that this is a very different situation and you know I I wouldn’t be surprised if you know there there’s some kings that need to be worked out in terms of getting everybody involved kind of hearkening back to to what I was talking about before of you know trying to get everybody on the same page and maximizing all the talent that you have available but I think when it comes to you know the core and what to do with it this offseason I think team’s obviously going to evaluate all options but even if you’ve lost some confidence in the long-term viability of the core that doesn’t necessarily mean you have to you know go out right away right like it it’s like folding when you have the option to check right like you you got to wait for the right opportunity here to to see what’s coming along and if people are blowing your doors off uh with great offers you’re going to need to evaluate all of those if everyone’s coming in lowball because there’s some notion that you have to make a decision you can you can let it kind of play out a little bit let’s see how it looks under a new coach let’s see with some other pieces we can make a a a evaluation in season at the trade deadline like there’s a whole lot of option at the Cal disposal and I think people you know they want immediacy they want to to see you know the microwave effect and all right let’s you know let’s just rebuild in a conventional way and I don’t care if we’re we’re losing talent in the process that’s not always the smartest way to go and I I it’s not the way I expect the Cavs to go because they have operated with a lot of patience in the past yeah and I think that patience is always worth it I mean this is kind of where I’m at as far as the core goes like yeah if you can present me with the Home Run deal that just makes so much sense and it’s an improvement then of course but I haven’t really seen that become available obviously I don’t know what’s out there for them but Cavs Twitter isn’t very good with the trade machines no one’s fan base is very good with them so no it’s either completely unrealistic or a deal that just doesn’t make sense for the Cavs at all so we’ll have to wait and see you could talk me into to splitting up the core if it’s if it looks like it makes sense on paper but I’m also glad that Kobe has shown some patience because there’s no need right now to blow it up especially and I don’t want to dive too deep into this but if Mitchell extends then there’s really no need to go into doomsday mode and think that you have to shake it up because obviously it’s dependent on if he gives any conditions but if Mitchell extends to this core then there’s no need to blow it up there’s there’s not that pressure anymore so uh to kind of recap and finish my summary of Garland season then we’ll move into our next topic I think the reality is it’s not an excuse to say that he broke his jaw and that all these other injuries played a role in it I know people don’t like to hear it but it does factor into it and above all else I think we Overlook how difficult this season was for everyone on the roster we kind of hit on that but Darius was not the only one with injuries he was struggling one thing that I mentioned during the playoffs is that I’d like to see DG uh play with some second units that have a chance of scoring sometimes he was just some of the units he had to lead throw in the fact that he’s already having a a difficult season and then the units that he was being asked to carry you’re you got what you expected probably it’s just a heavy load for anyone who was already struggling uh a stat that I pulled here when you look back at the year I think we all agree Mitchell and Allen were the two most reliable steady contributors Darius played 570 minutes next to those guys that’s less than a third of his total minutes uh for context they played a thousand minutes together last season so when you take him away from especially someone like Darius who is a guy who thrives by getting his teammates going and you take him away away from his best teammates for most of the season I think it’s to be expected and to put a bow on all this of course none of the excuses an underwhelming season I expected a leap from him I was hoping to see I thought he could have a borderline all-nba jump in him at best uh so of course I’m disappointed as anyone but again it’s a delicate balance you can’t just Hammer him for all these flaws without thinking deeper about why it may have happened yeah I completely agree and that’s that’s a great stat I didn’t realize that you know it was less than a third of his minutes and no way I think in the past as much as Donovan’s been the best player on the team these last two years Darius has been the guy particularly last season where he elevated lineups more than anybody else right like they had the uh in 22 23 they had the second best offense in the league with him on the court and they had the 29th with them off right like it was the largest onc Court offc Court impact on on the team by a pretty wide margin and he’s someone that elevated a lot of kind of questionable lineups particularly the the Twan pairing uh with him and Evan Mo you were able to just kind of put anybody out there and those lineups were able to be effective and you know that’s something you can do when someone’s in a rhythm when he’s having the best season of his career as he did uh that first year with Donovan Mitchell like you can do that but when a guy’s in a funk and he’s trying to find his rhythm and and okay you’re you’re throwing him out there you know with George Nang a lot in those first minutes when he came back and other guys that were trying to find their own games as well with with not a lot of r continuity it’s going to lead to some shaky results but I I do think it’s important you know we’ve got the context out of the way I do think that it’s important to still kind of dive into what went wrong what takeaways what where you know th those opportunities for improvement uh are are possible what what areas there are possible in I should say yeah and you set me up perfectly for our transition to our next topic because now that we’ve made all the excuses uh let’s focus on some of the real limitations to his game uh that show up throughout the year and how he can improve on them uh I think we all assume that a full summer to recover and shake off those struggles will naturally allow him to bounce back but and I certainly believe that but there’s also some issues that could carry forward I think of limitations such as getting to the basket especially getting to the free throw line his tendency to kind of Fall by the wayside when Mitchell is taking over and basically I just wonder can he not only return to form but are there things that he can even improve on for next season and so what are you expecting to see from Darius I you know that word expecting is tough because you know even as one of darius’s biggest believer is like you know I’m kind of in a wait and see mode because what he needs to do as a player is nothing that we haven’t seen him do before it’s just about putting it together consistently right like the fact that he came into the season a whole lot stronger he was getting to the line at a good clip um he was finishing at The Rim at a career best rate and and that had been a real kind of a of growth but the funny thing about that stretch was his hesitancy to take threes and I think that was tied to the hand uh you know ability to grip the ball and just you know it impacted his shooting as well um but he was almost leaning on it too much where he he’s kind of you getting into a little bit of grifting mode and that kind of play especially you know with an improved build but still a slight frame you’re kind of asking to to get banged up you’re kind of asking for some injuries there so what I want to see is more efficiency with his decision making I think that’s where I I really want to see improvements because in general uh when you look historically usually someone that does a good job taking care of the basketball um the first year with Mitchell only Nica yic had a better assisted turnover ratio among High usage players but even in that season you would still see kind of those careless passes where he’s coming up the court at a low pace and he’s kind of throwing you know those sideline out passes at half speed that they get picked off and go the other direction you got to cut those out you got to be more efficient with your decision- making recognizing what the defense is giving you and taking advantage of that I think is really really important one of the things I loved about that Boston game uh the one at home where you know they almost stole that one was he was taking some of those mid-range pull-ups he was taking what was available to him and he’s got to recognize when he can pull from three when you know the the shoot shooting pocket is you know coming off of that screen and taking a a 18-footer in Rhythm and once he starts taking what the defense is giving them and and punishing them in those spots all of a sudden that’s going to open up those opportunities at The Rim right like you hope that he as he gets you know gets his strength back and kind of gets back to a form where he’s finishing at The Rim at a decent level you hope that okay now that the defense is second guessing it’s going to make it a little harder for them to defend whereas if you’re just taking threes or if I’m driving to the basket I’m either going to loop around or I’m I’m going to go for a layup attempt that becomes a whole lot easier for shop blockers and Defenders to time out so I think you know just a little bit more patient and be more efficient with his movements and what he’s doing on the court would be really really helpful yeah I think th those are all really good points I think to a degree he’s become a little too predictable uh with his game at times I think we saw the the full the big picture of what you want his game to look like it just happened throughout different spurts of the year is like broken apart at the start of the year he’s finishing at a career high rate but it was the most sloppy turnovers I think we’ve seen from him they were just incable a lot of those uh and he wasn’t shooting the three and then when he comes back from the Jaw injury he cleans up the turnovers he starts shooting the lights out but of course I believe I wish I could remember this stat because I tweeted it but he was like slightly above average finishing at The Rim before the jaw injury and he plummeted to I think like second worst out of 300 400 players it was just complete fall off a cliff uh and clearly the jaw had an effect on that but he wasn’t a very strong finisher at The Rim to begin with because of his slight frame and then obviously a lot of things were working against him so if he’s able to put all that together where you are getting the three-point shots you’re getting aggressive drives to the rim do a little bit of the foul grifting but not too much because he doesn’t to get the greatest whistle and and get to the free throw line which he was trending upwards two years in a row getting to the free throw line at a better rate uh those are easy points obviously being left off the board and just picking and choosing the right shots uh taking that mid-range pullup at times I I think another thing he did when it comes to getting to the rim is he would just assume that the defender is going to come over and try and contest his shot and so he throws the lob when the floater or the layup was there and we saw some weird turnovers with that or just putting Moy in awkward positions where he’s catching dump off passes that should have been layups uh and so little things like that that he can clean up and I do think it’s kind of a snowball effect of where it was just a brutal season for him and I think he started to question himself at times and be a little hesitant so I’m ex I’m hoping for a full bounceback uh I think honestly having some success in the playoffs and then having this season cut short because of injuries I think it’ll let a fire in all of the Cavs more than last year’s collapse did because that’s the kind of heartbreak where you lost the team that very well might win the championship here and the Cavs have every reason to believe that they could have taken Boston out had they been healthy they were right in it uh and so I think that’ll Inspire them especially Garland uh where I think he’ll be working his ass off to get to that next level yeah absolutely and you know it’s funny the the Cavs actually had in in their Series against Boston um they have better offensive rating than Dallas has had so far which you know considering the guys they had missing and with everything that they were playing through that’s that’s a little bit surprising um but yeah I you hope that you know there there’s positive takeaways from it right like I I think there there’s a lot of actionable data there and you know in general I I still say that I liked what the Cavs ran offensively it’s just the frequency with which they ran it uh you know guys understanding and buying in terms of playing off ball and also just kind of how predictable it was at times like I it I think it an offense that needs like a little bit more seasoning right like you you just need to disguise things a little bit more be a little quicker a little more decisive like that’s something that darus need to improve with but I think it’s true of the offense overall um and you know I think that this is a group that really would benefit from more structure rather than the reita react like I I think that there is you know still meat on the bone there there’s things left to be discovered with with what this group can do offensively and you know the funny thing is like when you look at the pairing of Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland over the last two years I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Mitchell’s had his best two years of his career playing alongside Darius I know he’s credited him in the past and credited this situation in Cleveland uh for helping bring out the best in him um but when you look at the playoffs when it hasn’t worked well it’s been on the offensive end like everyone’s questions about oh you know small back court uh how how’s this going to work it doesn’t translate to the playoffs and all that it translates to the playoffs the defense is still El in it improves with both guards on the court in the postseason compared to the regular season Elite number if you have just Evan Moy out there because that’s the other thing oh well they got the two bigs you know protecting for them it’s a 105 defensive rating with just the two guards and Evan Moy and no Jared Allen like that is a lineup that works it’s just that the offense hasn’t been up to that standard and you know because the offense hasn’t been there and because it has like felt so difficult to go out there and score points other teams when they kind of hit those baskets down the stretch and whatnot it feels like oh man we just we can’t get a stop when we need one and and that clouds the perception of the defense when you look overall the defense is doing a very good job in those situation so the fact that you know the shortcomings are on the offensive end of the floor gives me some confidence that hey you know there’s a way to kind of structure this better to lessen the load on those two guards because they’re really what they’re asked to do offensively is pretty steep at times I I just think that again that there there’s meat on the bone and there’s ways to to make things click a little bit easier than they have but in general man like playoff scoring is hard it’s difficult it happens to the best Kyrie has shot like crap these two games man like this stuff happens and when you only have a like four or five games in a series right when these kind of abbreviated Series games teams that are either better than you or playing better than you like one or two games where you just don’t shoot well all of a sudden like if there’s not a larger sample size people are or even if there is a larger sample size really people go yeah not made for the playoffs you know not not that type of crazy when in reality man like this happens to almost everybody and it’s just we have an unfair standard uh when it comes to LeBron James and the expectations that you know the greatest player of all time has put on this organization and even then he he got locked up by JJ Berea like these things happen man happens man yeah no I I love that you I love every point you just made right there because I mean we just saw the Miami Heat uh perfect example of you get hot at the right time and things can happen for you in the playoffs uh Minnesota beating Denver Anthony Edwards just catches fire at the right time and then of course goes cold in the next series I think we’ve seen this with playoff performer man not a playoff perform it’s just the narrative should not shift that quickly of one performance and you see it with Tatum every night too uh it’s just people are very quick to overreact and the Cavs unfortunately like I’m so glad you mentioned the defense because that it just drives me crazy because just I hate to say this but just watch the games there are so many people who still Point towards this backcourt pairing and saying it can’t work because they can’t play defense have we watched the last two seasons they’re fine defensively that has not been their problem even against where I know Mitchell got injured so we didn’t see it for a full series but I that was where I was most concerned is hey they have two guys who Boston can really pick on it really wasn’t that much of a problem uh it wasn’t ideal but they didn’t lose because they couldn’t play defense they lost because they couldn’t score enough points yeah like at some point the results matter right like people will say oh you know like targeting Darius or t targeting Donovan like the first two games they definitely targeted Darius and they targeted Donovan at done in game three like yes that’s going to happen but the defense overall held up well and in general yeah that’s how offenses in the NBA work like you’re going to have whoever is on a primary initiator which is usually one of those guard spots they are going to be involved in the primary defens of action because they are guarding the primary initiators on the other team like that that’s how this works man like and at the end of the day like I said results matter and the the reality is the offensive results haven’t been there in the post postseason there is no magical combination of the guys currently on our roster that’s performed at a very high level in the playoffs offensively like it just it doesn’t matter if it’s one big or if it’s two bigs if it’s one guard or two guards like it just hasn’t been at the level that it needs to and I think the offensive Talent on this team is good enough to go out there and do it so you know whether that’s structure whether that’s tweaks to the uh you know the rotation guys or whatever the case may be I just think that there there’s a lot of a to explore but it’s worth noting that while you know like I said you may have doubts about the long-term viability of this group you’re still starting at a really uh good place man like the Baseline of what this Cav team is able to accomplish and like the number of wins they got in just a ridiculously injur ridiculously injured Ravel year like man it’s it I know there’s a sense of urgency and there should be but we’re we’re in a pretty good place as C fans yeah and that’s the important thing with the defense too is if the defense looked horrible if it was Dame and CJ level then there would be some urgency to say hey I don’t know if this is gonna work because you just don’t expect Darius or Donovan to be able to improve that much on defense to make it work but they’re good I think you can expect them to improve offensively now whether or not you feel comfortable banking on that it’s up for anyone’s personal opinion but if it was the defense that was the issue we would all be saying all right it’s time to break them up the fact that the defense has been fine and the offense just needs some tweaking it’s really easy to talk yourself back into it I think yeah and defense is honestly one of the areas where I was most disappointed with Darius uh just because you know I understand um the the three-point shooting when when you got a hand injury and everything that was going on like I understand some inefficiencies in his offensive game as he goes through it but what we saw in his first year with Mitchell was a major step up defensively like I I thought that he played as good positional defense as we we’ve seen from him and this year was a step back uh in terms of uh EPM uh he was still 51st percentile so you know very much middle of the pack it’s not terrible but the year prior he he was just so much more effective defensively and and even at times this year like I I thought we saw him defend well in spurts it’s just the the attention to detail and the focus wasn’t consistently there uh just looked it up uh the year prior 2023 he was 79th percentile defensively uh in terms of EPM like I thought I I really I know he didn’t make the All-Star team in that season I think some of that was because he missed time early in the year with the eye injury and it was just kind of a games missing that was the best year of his career he was the most he the most efficient year as a scorer he scored at the exact same rate as the all-star year his defense took a major leap as I mentioned the assist to turnover ratio was Elite like he was doing it on every single level and I thought even his off ball play um made some steps in the right direction it still wasn’t where I wanted to see it but it made steps in the right direction I thought his playoff ball and his play defensively both took a step back this year and that to me is more of a focus and effort thing right like I I understand you’re playing through some stuff and your confidence may not be there but still make those hard Cuts right instead of the the kind of half ass cuts that that aren’t going to draw the attention of a playmaker uh commit on the defensive end and say all right I’m I’m uneven offensively but I’m at least going to consistently lock in on the defensive end like those are the areas where it’s understandable but still when you want to when you have all NBA and and Allstar expectations of yourself those are the areas that you have to be a little bit more consistent yeah I mean those are the tiny areas of his game that if he polishes and I think we’ve seen the potential to do so that’s how make that leap uh I agree so much on the defense I thought last year he was he was so much better on defense than I think he ever got credit for this year that was a disappointing part of the second half of the Season especially where it just felt like completely checked out on that end I know the season was gruelling I did I will say I thought he played pretty well defensively in the Orlando series of course they’re not a super high powerered offense to really pick on him but I thought he had stretches in that Series where it felt like last year’s DG again but that’s an area where he can look to return to Forum I guess and I think this is a good way to transition to listen there’s that potential trade request that is looming over everyone’s head as we count down to the off season but I want to focus Less on that report or any potential trade ideas and just really start with if the Cavs bring Darius and Donovan back what needs to happen for Garland to reach his ceiling I think improving on defense is or just putting in that effort on defense is a huge focus and honestly he has been trending upward as an interior scorer uh before the in the injury and the off ball movement is something that everyone has been waiting to see and I think we’ve seen glimpses of it his usage rate went up or sorry his usage rate went down this year his touches went down and I think he tried to fill a role next to Mitchell off the ball uh but it’s a new challenge for him I’ve said this before but handling the ball is what made Darius a star learning to play without it is what will make him a complete player and maybe a new coach will maximize that potential yeah I I completely agree and I I think he needs to be more assertive with the possessions that he does get uh whether that’s pulling from three um as I mentioned kind of recognizing those mid-range shooting pockets and I think you know becoming a consistently viable threat well he like he’s a viable threat from there but just not turning down those opportunities I really think it’s going to open up those opportunities on the inside because he’s looking to you know get into kind of the the get into the paint create assist opportunities for Moy or or or Allen uh sometimes do the floater I thought he got away from the floater a little bit too much this past season um but like that’s kind of what his primary motivation is that’s that’s where he’s naturally kind of geared towards and I just think you know pulling from three a little bit more pulling from mid-range a little bit more is going to keep the defense guessing and that’s going to increase the finishing at The Rim like I I I think as much as we talk about the the strength and what we saw earlier in the season I didn’t love his shot diet and the way that he was getting to the rim even though the results were good I I just thought he was forcing it a little bit too much and kind of putting an unnecessary uh physical burden on himself so obviously you know cutting out the caress turnovers and committing on defense um I think that’s going to be a big difference but just becoming less predictable as an offensive player he he’s so effective already with with the way that he is playing that just kind of ironing that out I think makes a big difference and I I want to see him as a primary initiator in this offense I think that’s when Cleveland’s at its best um you know looking at you know Rich Paul’s comments um and listening to Chris Haynes talk about it as well on his podcast like that seems to be what kind of any like disgruntlement or whatever has been about and know Brian Windor has said there’s been nothing from DG or his camp about being unhappy in Cleveland or anything like that but Rich’s comments seemed to to me when I was reading them to be about role right like hey we we saw what happened in the playoffs where he’s basically kind of being used as an off ball shooter and Mitchell was was the primary initiator like let’s let’s find a better balance let’s find a healthier balance I thought the balance honestly against the Knicks was was really good um they they were basically even in touches and it just they went away from it this year right and there there’s some chicken and egg there in terms of hey he’s not playing as well he’s not playing as confident so he’s going to get fewer touches but I think not only for his ability to get Evan Moy going which is obviously one of the most important things when you talk about lifting the ceiling of this team but also just in preserving Donovan right like Mitchell you listen to some of the reporting and whatnot talking about his minutes like he’s 19th in minutes per game like if his body was breaking down after you know uh 13 game stretch where they really didn’t play a lot of games because of that Paris trip like they they had a lot of time off but you know his body broke down after that time as a primary initiator and you know nobody on this team like sometimes we get so hyperfocused on our team and what’s going on that that we don’t kind of check those Trends around the league like Mitchell’s 19th in minutes per game I think Darius was 51st um uh streu and Allen were in the 70s uh Moy was in the 80s like these guys aren’t playing a ton man like if you think oh JB was running them to the ground like tibs and new coach is going to change things there’s a very good chance that a new coach is actually going to play these guys more minutes because our starters were not playing a lot of minutes the the biggest difference between the Cavs and a lot of other teams when you talk about the size of the rotation is that we have three guys coming off the bench that play a lot of minutes right like Carris lt’s getting his 28 Isaac’s getting 26 George was getting his 24 and you might have another guy get 10 or 12 the teams that go nine or 10 Deep they have a bunch of bench guys that maybe play 10 to 15 minutes per game right like um you don’t have those guys playing like true six n minutes where the Cavs basically had three of them so um I think Darius shouldering an offensive burden getting Evan Mobley going and making sure that Donovan Mitchell is fresh for those moments that you need it the most like to me that’s the most important thing yeah I agree with that 100% And you know I see the people who say oh it’s what two three years in a row of the Cavs crumbling due to injury down the stretch of the year it’s because they’re being ran into the ground and they’re really not they none of these guys have played super heavy minutes at least compared to the other best teams in the league I I couldn’t tell you why they end up getting injured it sometimes just happens man here’s here’s the thing man like we’re we’re both Cavs optimists that is not an optimistic slant like really like I I think a a lot of people are actually more optimistic than me when they’re like hey new coach it’s going to make everything better they’re not going to play these heavy minutes and whatnot they’re not playing heavy minutes man like it’s not an encouraging sign like it’s you know maybe there there’s something to to do uh behind the scenes outside of like the games that we’re not seen in terms of like approach or practice and you know uh how how they handle things in training camp that that might change but in terms of games man like they’re not playing a ton it’s it’s not really a concern for me at all like it’s if you want kind of an easy answer for for why things have fallen apart and why guys got banged up like it it’s not really there it happened to every team by the way like it’s the cows are by far not the only team that dealt with injuries this year so I think that’s important to note too uh yeah I mean to kind of round out this segment I think we have seen the glimpses of what will make Darius a complete player uh trying to be optimistic I maybe a new coach will help structure the offense because and this is actually a good way to transition to what what it would mean if the Cavs lost DG this season if they traded him because the your turn my turn stuff with Mitchell gets very heavily criticized and I get it but at the same time the people who want Donovan to be the lead point guard this heliocentric stuff doesn’t work in the NBA you kind of need a little bit of your turn my turn at the highest stage where even the Celtics Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum they get criticized for that but as long as you have a Supporting Cast that can help support you it works uh the heliocentric stuff just never does and so that’s why I think the Donovan Darius pairing still has so much untapped potential because there is a degree of hey we have two guys who can dice you up on any given possession and if we learn how to balance them off each other and not have these games where it’s Darius playing off ball entirely and Donovan’s running the show or hey Darius is hot tonight so he’s gonna fill it up in the three-point line if they find a way to truly bounce off each other and I think we have seen the moments where that happens uh game two against the Knicks last year it’s a great example Donovan’s rolling and he starts getting de or Darius is rolling and Donovan’s looking for him like I think there’s so much potential there uh we I know I know you’ll love this because you these people will say the Cavs unlocked something this year without DG the 18- two stretch that just it’s not a real thing that happened they didn’t go 18- two without DG I I’m sure you know that the number off the top of your head but I think it was yeah nine and one with Once DG came back right yeah it was nine and one with moile well count counting the one that that Moy played on his own against the Clippers it was nine and one and the offense actually improved and the funny thing with that stretch with with you know just Donovan and Jared was people are like oh now they’re playing Super uptempo no they they actually slowed down like their decision making was more decisive but their highest paced player prior to the jaw injury was Darius right like they and and they played and when they Moy and Garland came back the starting unit actually played a lot quicker you I thought that was was a really smart thing with JB understanding hey we don’t have a lot of as much spacing with this lineup so we’re going to play Up Tempo with our starters um but yeah they went in the games where it was just Mitchell and Allen it got broken up a little bit because there there was that three and one stretch with without Mitchell Garland and Moy um but they went 11 and three um they only played three games against teams that were above 500 which was the two against the Bucks and one against Orlando and you know had just fired their coach and they went below 500 after that so like it’s not like that that was a you know looking back on the season I think there’s certain losses and wins that look better uh than they did in real time like everyone freaked out early in the year about losing to the Thunder when we were down two of our our starters like that doesn’t look as bad the Bucks win does not look as good as it did like that was not a good team at any point after that stretch so um you know I I think that the keeping that in mind like yes there were positives from it but I think you also have to look at everybody got wear and te injuries from that stretch from the The increased load that they were shouldering over that time against losing teams not playing a lot of minutes Donovan’s knee gave out Max’s knee gave out kris’s knee gave out Wade’s knee gave out like they just weren’t able to kind of handle that physical load and I think you saw in the playoffs too where where Donovan was functioning as the point guard when he’s playing against really good teams and really good defenses the balance between playmaking and scoring gets skew um Kai shot 60% off of Donovan Mitchell passes in the playoffs so it’s not like he was setting guys up and they were bricking everything he shot 60% problem is is if they shot 100% in the playoffs he still wouldn’t have averaged eight assists per game like the playmaking just completely went out the window where where there weren’t even those playmaking attempts and you know I I think that’s why you saw um those last two games against Boston like everyone was like oh look no Jared Allen that’s why Evan Moy had these two good games Jared had been out for a while Moy struggled those last three games offensively against Orlando without Jared he struggled kind of earlier in that Boston series and I I think playing alongside uh DG and having him be the the primary point guard one one game where where Garland scored well and another where he just wasn’t efficient at all but just the playmaking in the chemistry with Moy I think really kind of helped get him going and I I made this analogy on the chase down but this isn’t uh Hey Donovan’s making them worse kind of take W which you know I think people could you know if they had bad motivations they could take that angle it’s more like when you’re cooking or baking where hey we had a little bit too much salt I love salt it makes everything taste better we got to find the right balance right like let’s just just because you had a little bit too much of one ingredient and took away from some of the other ingredients doesn’t mean you take it out of the recipe entirely and and I think finding that right balance between the two as Playmakers because Donovan did take a step forward uh as a playmaker is going to be important but like you said man I’ve hated heliocentric offenses I didn’t like it when when Luca ran it and you know MAV felt the same way and they went out and got Kyrie right um the Hawks did it with Trey young they went and got deante because they they said hey this doesn’t work uh Russell Westbrook I didn’t like the the kind of martyr ball that he was playing with the Thunder I don’t want that to be what the Cavs play and I don’t think Donovan’s as good of a playmaker as Russell Westbrook is right like so oh yeah at the end of the day man like I I just if you were to move on from Darius I think you would need to be getting either you know some sort of kind of replacement point guard uh kind of in a George Hill mold that’s just going to you know kind of take care of business and get people into their spots or the other way that you could build off of this is Donovan in kind of a Jamal Murray role which you know you need a yage to make it work you need to have you know yeah uh if we’re going to make the comparison of Kyrie you need to have a Luca donic or LeBron James and those type of front Court playmakers that can act as primary initiator are not the easiest thing to acquire yeah I just think this season was such a perfect storm for anyone who has bad motivations to just cherry pick whatever stretch whatever segment of the year that helped support their narrative really it was just such a mixed assortment of of results this year that everyone is right and no one’s wrong and there’s just there’s so many different ways you could take this season uh really there’s just so much Nuance that you have to be honest with yourself and I think overall people just Overlook how DG at his best is still hugely impactful for the Cavs and how difficult it would be to replace that I know a lot like I love Craig Porter Jr he’s not ready to be the starting point guard guys I’ve seen that on Twitter it’s just we have fallen very low on what DG offers you when he’s at his best he is a top five maybe top 10 floor General in the whole NBA when he’s being that efficient game manager it’s just so hard to replace what he brings and if you don’t have that now you’re relying entirely on Mitchell to do all of those little things that garland does to manage a game on top of being the volume scorer and while I think Mitchell improved a lot as a playmaker I don’t feel comfortable relying on him to be the full-time point guard he’s he’s a great volume scorer he has one of the lowest assists to usage ratios in the NBA and Helio centered teams when they attempt to have that volume scorer also be the point guard it just doesn’t work out especially when that guy is under 6 foot three again the your turn my turn play style it has value in the NBA there’s just a balance that you have to strike even LeBron and Kyrie there was a balance that they found now very very different players amazing I you have LeBron on your team it’s a lot easier to make stuff like that work but again I think you just can’t Overlook what DG brings and the thing that scares me the most is that if you trade Darius this season you’re going to end up trial and error finding your way back to we need a traditional point guard next to Mitchell and it might not be as easy to get that as people think no I I I totally agree and it’s funny because you know everybody’s solution to to fix a rotation and to fix a team is always just play whoever isn’t playing but like you you look at it man and like from the end of January on basically like that January 27th game where we Mobly came back and and honestly the the trend started prior to that but you look at like the last four months of the season the most harmful players from an onoff standpoint where the guys everyone was calling for it was Sam merell it was Marcus Morris it was uh you know it all these guys that oh Craig Porter Jr like all the guys that were the the easy fixes it just didn’t work and you know in the instance of Craig and Sam I think as scouting ports caught up to them and you know they needed to kind of add those other dimensions to the game they became a little less effective but I think that’s important for them moving forward right like that gives you actionable data for for the offseason and I still really like what Craig can be as a backup point guard in the future and honestly I I still believe in Tai Jerome I think that was a great sign it was a It’s a 65 point guard that shoots well and never turns the basketball over in theory that would have been a perfect third guard to stagger Garland and Mitchell and you know I I think you you want to talk about like hey they didn’t play a ton of injuries but they or minutes and but they still got injured I think the way that the Cavs have just gone depleted at a single position so frequently ends up contributing to it right because you’re just like all the injuries hit almost at the same time where hey we’re down our second and third string point guard so we’re just going to have to play one guy a ton of minutes and or at least give them a ton of responsibility in the minutes that they do have and that just leads to more wear and tear and and it’s a cyclical thing I think that’s why the teams that end up getting injured like it’s there’s almost that compounding effect of it so when you have Ricky on on leave and Tai gets hurt and then Darius is out to start the year like man and Mitchell’s already playing through a hamstring injury like it just was a tough tough season and I just hope everybody has a great off seon and and gets a lot of yoga a lot of U massages and everything that they need to to be fresh for next year yeah no I hope so too man because injuries just really derailed any potential momentum they could have built uh kind of bringing this full circle to what I said earlier if the Cavs keep this core together they’re going to need to explore every Avenue to carving out a stronger Supporting Cast uh because really the thing for me is they just need some stability on the bench they don’t they have too many lineups or guys who I love Caris lever but bad Caris is is very bad and if you just had more guys where even when they aren’t making shots they’re not a net Negative they aren’t tanking lineups I think that would go a long way towards uh providing stability to this core and helping Darius Garland in times where he’s not playing well because he’s not gonna share the floor with Mitchell for 48 minutes that’s an aspect of this that people leave out is that Darius he struggled the most his his net rating dipped the most when he wasn’t next to Mitchell which directly contradicts the idea that this back court can’t coexist both of them had their best ratings when they were together uh overall I think and so I just what do I know right apparently these guys just it’s it’s a horrible fit and they can’t play next to each other but for some reason they’re at their best when they’re together Mitchell has had his two best seasons of his career I know this year Darius was out for much of that stretch but Darius had the best year of his career last year and I just think we Overlook that too easily yeah and honestly I think Mitchell was better overall the the year prior like I I just think from an efficiency standpoint and what not I thought it was a better year from him he did have uh those good couple weeks and what not but I think on the whole and honestly I think from Mitchell’s case it’s injuries as well like the the hamstring to start the year him playing as a primary initiator I kind of remember uh but before Darius got back and and kind of found a rhyth there Carter and I were talking about hey like looking at Mitchell’s data for his career like it just doesn’t work when he’s not next to a point guard and that’s probably part of the the Cav struggles here um but you know he was injured to start the year he had that good stretch and then after the All-Star break we we never saw him healthy like I I just think the the body work the year prior was was just so much better from Mitchell standpoint but you’re right man like there’s this perception that these guys are out there 48 minutes together when that’s just not the case like Mooby has played over the last two years almost as many possessions on his own as he has with Jared Allen uh the same thing goes for Garland like his possessions with with Mitchell um are almost equal to his minutes on his own like it’s just they’ve done a good job staggering over the last couple years and the perceptions that people have of oh we’re just kind of running this unconventional lineup out there for for so long like it just it just doesn’t match reality it doesn’t match any of the data yeah no I mean I agree listen there’s opportunities there for this core 4 uh to really reach their ceiling all together and I know people are going to be very some people are going to be pissed if they don’t make any moves this year uh but I see the potential I really do and I I don’t want to put too much stock into what a new coach could bring because I think a lot of this comes down to the players themselves improving and buying in and making changes on their own but maybe a fresh take maybe uh you know I think again the fact that they were so close this year I know they lost in five but it felt like they were right there to the team that ultimately might win the championship I think that’s going to make them a little more motivated than of course just getting stomped by the Knicks that that motivates you in a different way but being right on the doorstep and feeling like if we can just polish these aspects of our game we can really do it I think that’s going to get them fired up yeah I totally agree I think there’s a lot of actionable data there and you know the the fact that it took Boston getting like 30 more free throws to to beat Justus Mo in one of those games um like you know just just little stuff like that I think there was enough to say hey we can just get there man like we’re we’re right there I don’t I think the biggest take away from this year is that there is no 2017 Warriors like there’s no team that’s just lapping the field I think there’s a ton of parody and it’s going to come down to matchup it’s going to come down to who’s playing the best at the right time it’s going to come down to to who’s healthiest and getting some breaks in an NBA like that man like you can talk yourself into all right you you know more structure with the offense so everybody’s being maximized in a different way getting that buy in internal growth uh guys getting close to their Prime like Mo’s still three four years away from his peak in my opinion or or his like the start of his prime Garland’s probably two three years away from the the start of his prime because historically guys start to hit that around 27 still a ways away with these guys and you know I think the expectations have shifted because of what we’ve seen from them like they earned it they’ve earned an increase in expectations but I think that still does have to come with a little bit of understanding that hey like these things do take time they do like needs to marinate it needs to marinate and you know maybe this is a sign that we’re we’re getting close to dinner because I’m I’m I’m I’m making another food analogy but uh some sometimes you know you you gota you kind of let things simmer until they’re you know just right yeah no I agree and to to round out the episode I’ll just say again I think this is something that we’ve both mentioned a little bit throughout I don’t think like I always use the Hawks example with uh Trey young and de jontay Murray that’s a pairing where pretty quickly you realized it wasn’t going to work that hasn’t been the case with the Cavs there’s stuff here that they can work on uh if they choose to move on this summer I think there’s arguments to be made for it but this isn’t the Doomsday Defcon level five or one whatever the highest one is they’re not like the the midnight the clock has not reached midnight yet uh and so I I’m really excited to see what they choose to do this summer uh that’s all for today’s episode of what’s next I want to thank Justin once again for joining me uh special thank you to everyone who watches or listens to the Pod if you enjoyed this episode please consider hitting subscribe and dropping a like and you can find Justin and the chase down pod on the official Cleveland Cavaliers YouTube page I will have links in the description so please check it out if you somehow already haven’t uh Justin does great stuff over there him and Carter and with all that being said go Cavs oh

Justin Rown of The Chasedown pod joins to discuss what comes next for Darius Garland!

– Recap DG’s season
– How much will carry forward for DG?
– How can DG reach his ceiling?
– What would the Cavs lose in a DG trade?

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