Are the Knicks & 76ers the BIGGEST offseason winners? 👏 | The Hoop Collective

Are the Knicks & 76ers the BIGGEST offseason winners? 👏 | The Hoop Collective

hello welcome to the hoop Collective podcast we talk about the NBA which we are doing on Sunday evening for me here in Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates with Team USA on the first foreign stop on their tour towards um the Olympics in Paris and some 8,187 miles away in Las Vegas are the two guests I’ve got with me first up the guy who’s been in Vegas for weeks on end Tim bontemps well we don’t have Ben McMahon here because he’s on vacation and the biggest story in Vegas this weekend is that Brian lorse bags never got out of the country and everybody wants to know latest update on where are Brian’s clothes I don’t think people want they don’t really want to know trust me people here in Vegas want to know I arrived in Abu daab 3 days ago my bag remains in the United States and I know exactly where it is because I’ve got an air tag on it and this is one of those horror stories you read about and nobody wants to hear about but I know exactly where it is but the airlines can’t seem to find it as Jackson correctly says why would the airline do that why why well maybe because it’s in Dallas and they don’t like me much in Dallas joining us from down the street is the machine in Vegas to document summer league Kevin Pelton you know I don’t know that they’re that fond of me in Dallas either so maybe it was a good thing I was originally supposed to connect through Dallas on my way to uh to Bristol for the NBA draft show a couple weeks ago but I ended up changing my plans so maybe maybe that was fortunate since my beg did make it the only person more dislike than McMahon in Dallas among ESP being employees the machine Kevin pel it’s never good when um when you want to uh when you when you lose your there’s never a good time to lose your luggage there’s never a good time to lose your luggage for days and days and days on end but when you’re at the start of a three continent monthlong trip that’s that’s a rough one uh all right well I’ve been a big loser this week but uh now we do you like that turn we’re gonna good that’s a professional segue Brian thank you we’re gonna we’re GNA talk about with the uh I was talking to somebody today uh League executive and he said well the offseason is over uh nobody’s talking about anything right now if you don’t have your business done it’s not getting done sure it’s an over exaggeration I’m sure we will see things there’s still some a bunch of uh 2021 draft guys that have to get their extensions done but um feel like that’s basically the vibe here in Vegas though don’t you think Kevin doesn’t everybody sort of feel like it’s over yeah the chatter has been about Gary Trent Jr so we we’ve reached a pretty deep part of the offseason yes I would agree I would agree um well anyway um thought we’d take a look at with the offseason with a bow on it some of the teams that came out winners and some of the teams came out losers and the Knicks were already near the top and then a couple of days ago Jaylen Brunson did what I guess it wasn’t shocking uh because this is the kind of thing that has been happening with the Knicks it’s also been talked about as a possibility literally for months also true but it was still I’m not downplaying it as a I’m not downplaying the importance I’m just saying it wasn’t shocking only because we’ve talked about it for right I mean that was my lead the other day is it it isn’t shocking because of the fact that we’ve been talking about this but it probably should be well I think probably say what it is before we continue yes Jaylen Brunson signed a four-year $17 million contract extension with the Knicks just about on the first day he was eligible to sign it maybe a couple days later and that was $37 million less than he could have made over the same stretch and had he um if he’ waited and and what what is the overall number if he had waited the key the key the key way to explain it is if he had signed a the full extension he could have signed a year from now or full deal he could have signed a year from now he could have made uh $270 million over a 5year deal and therefore sacrificed $113 million to sign this extension now at below the max by a lot what he could do year dollars wise and below the max what he could do years wise which is obviously geared towards keeping this team together and I think is certainly a secondary part of the transaction that was made a couple of weeks ago to trade for Mel Bridges the fourth member of the Nova Knicks and I still maintain the fifth member of the Nova Knicks who’s there before Ryan Archer diako will’ll wind up back with the Knicks at some point and know these guys have all clearly desired to play together and by signing this extension under the new collective bargaining agreement like we’ve talked about a bunch this gives the Knicks the ability to have potentially a five-year window where they are an elite Championship level team with this group together which is going to be really really hard to do under this new CBA which is why this is a big deal and why I saw a bunch of Nicks people yest yester and every one of them including a certain father had a very big smile on their face about the way things have gone for the Knicks over the last few weeks you know he does have an opt out in the last year of that contract he can opt out and sign for more so that all the numbers are a little fuzzy but the point is he’s really leaving a lot on the table and there’s no guarantee there’s no guarantee that in in four years that he will be able to get that kind of money there’s no guarantee now um Pelton we have talked repeatedly over the years about how there’s an intrinsic value to being a star on the Knicks that if you are a star on the Knicks you reap the rewards for the rest of your lifetime partially because there hasn’t been a lot of bonafide stars on the Knicks and partially because of the nature of the market and the nature of the fan base and that nobody remembers how much Carmelo Anthony made but he is regarded as a as an all-time Nick and he continues to live off of that um but we’re now pressing the limits of that because this earning this back like psychically he he he can um it’s one you know he can say winning is worth whatever and you know I’ve I learned years ago never to count players money um but I it it I’ll bet jayen will be hearing from a lot of people in his life and people who come up alongside him because one of the things about the NBA one of the Lessons Learned is you know when the sun shines you’ve got to take the money and no matter how much it is it could be more and this is your could be your one opportunity so Jaylen is doing this because he trusts the Knicks and because he wants to be in New York and all those things but um it is still a huge outlier in the history of contracts and the Knicks really now have a responsibility to Jaylen um not that you know they didn’t already but now they have responsibility to Jaylen to really keep the gas down and make that sacrifice financially worth worth it yeah I mean notably carelo Anthony and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this certainly but he did take every penny when he got to New York and and did so via trade he took a little bit he took a when he came to New York but then he sign contract or the second contract yeah he later signed a contract where he took a little bit of a haircut just what the story the story of carmel’s career in general was at every point he made sure he maximized the money he could make as opposed to maximizing the winning situation he could put himself in which is not it’s not a criticism but again he took the other guys all the the other guys from the banana boat all were free agents in 2010 and he was a free agent in 2011 because he made sure he got the extra money it’s not a negative thing it’s just the story of how Hiser played out all of that is accurate but I believe to be fair his last contract with the Knicks he took a slight reduction to try to help them yeah I me c space but um none of that’s a criticism either I get all the money you can get I’m not saying that but it’s just that’s that’s just the story of how carelo Stuff played out yes and so that that move is obviously you know I think I think you’ve got it right Bon Temps I think that move really is a conjunction and a um an extension of the Mel Bridges trade um there is sort of in tandem making all of that deal sort of wraps up into one and then the thing about it is is Bridges is eligible for an extension deide a two-year for Bobby marks two-year $60 million extension in October you could sign a four-year extension for I think somewhere around 120 million I don’t remember the exact number next summer off of his current deal which is seen as a below Market deal and I will be very surprised if at some point in the next calendar year Mel Bridges is not extended off of that current deal because again that’s the precedent that’s being set here by one of his best friends and these guys all clearly want to play together and this is helping them do that and I I think it’s important to point out that the contracts that are entered into this year no matter what they are these are going to end up being good contracts and the reason is because the TV money is coming after this season and and and they’re going to phase that money in and the the cap is going to go up at least 30% in in the next three years you know might even go up a little bit more and it might even go up 40% over the next four years so guys who sign this summer and lock themselves into contracts by the time they get to the end of these deals they’re going to probably be 30 perish discounts even if they’re still at the Mark even if they signed a market value deal in 2024 they’re still they’re going to be 30% discounts in three years so then you have Brunson who took a below Market deal a significant below Market deal um and so in three years when he’s getting towards the end of that contract God knows what percentage he’ll be below what his value is so it’s you know and that’s why it’s such a home run is that the Knick’s flexibility with building their team will remain open because the cap is going to grow and continue to give them flexibility and with if Bridges takes this same type of deal as well and doesn’t become a unrestricted free agent like he can in a couple of years the way uh Jaylen made that decision um it just really amplifies the the discount so I know it’s kind of you know talking about money talking about other players money is is um is complicated but Pelton it’s um really puts the Knicks in position and they’ve got all these draft picks still um and and they still can can improve this roster which I think is a key Point yeah they got a handful of of other teams draft picks I mean the the value of those is debatable because you know two of the picks that they have are maybe the only two outside picks they have are from Detroit and from Washington and are protected in such a way that the Knicks may never get them I think that Pistons pick in particular because the the protections you know decline a little bit over time and I do think at some point even with a new leaded executive in Trent langden they’re going to feel the pressure to to start winning and maybe give up a pick that’s in the teens to New York uh so they have some some things to work out with the cupboard isn’t bare draft pickwise even as much as they gave up for Mel Bridges but yeah I mean the big thing this allows them to do is next off season they can figure out Julius randle’s situation assuming you know he’s not quite a 30% Max at this stage of his career they can extension right now just for just to say they could do something with them now too yep they could do that right now and lock that in and potentially use the taxpayer mid-level exception next summer and still stay under that second apron so the second apron is going to be a clock on teams because of the way that the draft picks get Frozen and eventually move to the end of the round our expectation is it’s probably going to be two years you’re going to spend in that second apron and then you’re going to be trying to get out so your draft pick doesn’t move to the end of the r out so New York that that clock would start for them in all likelihood in 2026-27 when Bridges is starting that potential extension and not next season so that’s an extra year it’s not until 2028 29 that they have to worry about the harshest implications of the second apron so I’d say it’s a four-year window right now and that will still be expensive so that’s where you know in terms of taking care of Brunson and you know matching his commitment the Knicks are going to be paying a lot of luxury tax for this team but not necessarily dealing with the harshest second apron ramifications I guess their play is to sort of outmaneuver the Celtics financially because they’re behind them talent-wise but they can out maneuver the Celtics financially um we had a I had a light moment today with Jason Tatum he was talking about welcoming Derrick Rose to um Camp I’m sorry you’re right Derek White um you’re right I had a light moment with Jason Tatum today who was um welcoming his Celtics teammate Derek white to Team USA um practice he arrived at 2:30 in the morning on Sunday morning here in Abu Dhabi and was on the practice court by about 10:30 and um he’s like he’s a max player now I I you know he’s like last time I saw him was at the parade and in in the time he I haven’t seen him he’s become a max player because um uh Derek signed what his max is a 4-year $26 million contract and I said uh Jason Derek is not a max player you sir are a max player because he has literally uh almost two and a half times bigger Max contract uh and Jason couldn’t stop from smiling on that one you know I kind of had him on that so um but you know the Celtics there’s three Celtics here you know all of them are under long-term contract and uh with Jason Tatum Drew holiday and uh Derek white all of them have just signed just signed within the last few months and there’s controversy that a fourth guy isn’t here in Jaylen Brown whose contract is a year old and when you look at the Knicks all their guys are kind of GNA be freshly signed but the difference is the cost of the Knicks versus the cost of the Celtics is hugely different and so if you’re the Knicks yeah you’re believing that team Nova will will bond together and play together but it’s all Al a bet a bet that your finances and your structure will you know be able to live longer and you know there’s some uncertainty with the soust because they’re for sale um so I do think that that’s you know one thing to look at it’s it’s unfortunate um but reality that that’s what team building is about it used to kind of be more like well who can guard the two threes who can who’s going to be the the stretch four you know can this point guard Play Combo guard whatever and that’s still there but you now have to worry about how all those guys really fit in and it’s you know it’s not so much how big your your your your payroll is it paying tax is only part of the deal it’s it’s all the new penalties so we’re learning that and that’s one of the reasons why New York was a big winner but the OG noi contract not as good Elton like all the discounts that they got on this they paid a premium for ogan and Obi and I don’t blame him but he got he got the uh those other guys took the Nova discount he got the premium yeah I mean he had the leverage of the fact that he was you know a free agent this year if Philly hadn’t gotten Paul George probably would have been their number number one Target and would have been a reasonable candidate for them to even throw a Max at I think potentially in that scenario and so he got slightly less than his Max from the Knicks but he is going to be the highest paid player on this team you know ahead of Brunson which is kind of interesting given their respective spots in the pecking order and I guess again to to The Leverage he had but uh I I I think you you had to do it for the Knicks from the niick standpoint I I don’t agree with you that you can’t sign a bad contract this offseason because I remember a lot of people saying that in the summer of 2016 and many of those contracts aged quite poorly for guys who you know even though that the the cap you can sign a bad contract any year I’m just saying these players will be viewed as discounts maybe not every single the way you the way yes the way you phrased it was that every contract is a good contract I had the same thought as pal as you were saying I take it all back I take it all back your point was your point in the aggregate was accurate it’s just there you could still sign players to bad deals that’s all definely a lot of deals are going to age well but that contract I think is going to be fine going forward again in the context of these other discounts that they’ve had and you know I think the most interesting question with the Knicks is how much are they going to miss Isaiah hartenstein and everything that he provided them on the offensive glass you know as a passer from the front Court you’ve got Mitchell Robinson they’re still looking for another big they’re still looking for another big out there preure sucha is unsigned seems very likely that he will be going back to the Knicks as their backup center but you know I would have liked their offseason maybe slightly more if they could have gotten a you know a a discount backup center Andre Drummond was someone who was mentioned he ended up going to Philly so that’s I think the one question mark out there I had an interesting hypothetical post to me would you rather for this Knicks team as it’s constituted right now have Julius Randall or Isaiah hartenstein set he as sidein hartenstein for sure I think the Knicks would rather have with the the team they have now I mean have the team they had in the playoffs except you’d have Mel Bridges on it and that you know I I think they would take that based off how they’re spread out I think I’m pretty sure that hardenstein is making more money than Randall he definitely is yeah very slightly more yeah he’s making 30 million this season to start his contract yeah Randall’s at 29 yeah well who would have thought that a year ago yes I mean you know I I I I talked to Isaiah earlier this year when he was really taken off and I said how many how many teams offered you a contract when you were a free agent two years ago he said two I assume was the Clippers and the Knicks yeah the Clippers wanted him back and then the Knicks signed him yeah and the Knicks got him for less than the mid- level or maybe it was about the mid- level no it was less he and he bounced around I mean he he played for Cleveland he played for Houston the Clippers signed him on a little on a cheap deal I mean he I mean it’s it’s a cool story the way he’s improved in yeah cash in he’s you know we’ll talk about him in a bit okay uh a couple of other pretty obvious winners from the off season uh Philadelphia 76ers they signed the biggest uh free agent hitting Paul George and bontemps you like the way they spent the rest their money and filled out the rest of their roster yeah I mean look it as I’ve said a bunch of times we can’t guarantee that Philly’s going to win the title because of how this summer went but if you look at the probability range of outcomes on how this went it went about as well as it possibly could have they get Paul George obviously the only real max free agent on the market he was a perfect fit with Tyrus Max and Joel and beid they get Caleb Martin for half the money he could have gotten if he’ taken the extension that was on the table in Miami very good fit for them the Andre Drummond who Kevin mentioned earlier the Nicks had interest in other teams that interest in he’s a very good backup center gives them a good Innings eater behind Joel embiid Eric Gordon for a minimum solid deal to get Kelly UB back we had a great year last year on a minimum for Philly um one of the biggest surprises of this of the Season frankly I thought was the way he fit in there and played really well and a very big move for them over the weekend right after we finished the Pod the other day getting Kyle Lowry back on a minimum um I was curious to see how those negotiations would go if they would be able to get Kyle back um I think he’s going to be really important piece for them both in the locker room and on the court he obviously is towards the latter part of his career at this point but um shy had a lot left in the tank when he came over from Miami uh uh after being traded to Charlotte last year in the teror reier deal played well for them down the stretch and in the playoff and I think as a guy coming off the bench as a key reserve for them really important to get him done and you look at you know last year Derrick Jones and UB both signed in August there’s going to be more players that are probably going to land on Midland deals later this summer Philly’s going to be at the front of the line for a lot of those players and they they should be able to get some guys help and the other thing that happened Josh aoji and Eric Gordon both signed twoyear $60 million contracts with non guaranteed second years both of them as trade chips uh you know I think there was some uh consternation with the league about how those went um but the bottom line is both those guys are eligible to get those contracts conation because it’s um not consternation for those guys who probably got overpaid correct become human trade exceptions yes the league I don’t know if the league was super thrilled about having them be human trade exceptions but it’s perfectly reasonable and it’s great for those guys and now both the union is not going to complain the union is quite happy to have uh role players get paid like that it’s a zero harm uh it’s a zero harm situation other than owners paying more money which I don’t uh I’m not going to have any issue with so now they have a guy they have some more ability to add by a trade and they have all of their they got a bunch of draft picks to move so they’re they’re about as good a shape as they could and you know see if if the guys are healthy we’ll see what it looks like on the court but compared to where I thought it was going to be back in February when I didn’t think they were getting Paul George and I wasn’t really sure how this was going to go like I thought they might be able to spread their money around and get a few solid players and I didn’t think they’d be I certainly didn’t think they’d be barere of talent but good work to get the best player on the market to add depth around them I think it’s gone about as good as it could have it’s a good thing you Ro B well MC wasn’t here to uh complain about that particular well it would have been his vocab word of the day we have we give him a vocab word of the day every pod KP you know that no you did say Eric Gordon that was KJ Martin who signed that two-year $16 million deal and oh sorry the the Sixers were able to take advantage of the fact that because he was on a minimum contract before that he had signed as a second round pick with Houston his cap hold is a is a free agent unrestricted was at the minimum so they could still fit him in use all this cap space to bring in the guy that they did they split that up amongst PG Drummond uh Caleb Martin and then resign KJ Martin use the room exception on UB minimum for Lowry and Gordon it’s going to be a master class I think on how to kind of maximize your cap space it will be expensive as you alluded to uh I think it’s going to be kind of fascinating because it looks like Philly has a chance to be in the luxury tax well using cap space which is something that almost never happens Cleveland pulled it off the the summer that they brought LeBron back and then used uh Brendan Haywood Haywood’s non-g guaranteed contract to create a trade exception that they eventually got team A mozgov in that year but uh it’s a it’s a team I think is the important thing like the these pieces do fit really well together despite the fact that you you had these complications of kind of being limited by the market and that’s why getting Paul George was so crucial because he he fills a lot of holes I mean you do still have some questions they don’t have much size in the front Court you know it’s probably going to be uh Caleb Martin at 6 foot6 is their starting power forward is you pencil things out right now but you know that’s a that’s a spot that they could look to address if they trade KJ Martin or using some minimum signings and you know this is going to be a I think this has a chance to be the best Sixers team of the Joel embiid era I would agree with that just really quick they are definitely going to be in the luxury attacks after the moves they have made uh okay we mentioned Isaiah hartenstein a little bit go Oklahoma City with um some some moves to improve their team they came out and had you know probably a top five six move top 10 move whatever right out of the gates with trading for Alex Caruso and then they add hartenstein and they don’t really lose um a lot there you know they traded Josh giddy but he didn’t fit great in hartenstein they signed with cap space they don’t use have to use any of their draft picks um they’re a winner Pelton without question I think they I think they had the best offseason of any team I mean Philadelphia obviously like relative to their position Philadelphia came in in the best position because they had the most cap space and I think they they did great work with it but you know I think Oklahoma City to keep the core of this group intact to not give up any draft picks whatsoever then the other thing they were able to do is decline the team options Isaiah Joe Aon wigin bring them back on contracts that are going to descend over the course of them gives them a lot of flexibility as start navigating the contract extensions that are coming for Chet Homen and Jaylen Williams and then after that a supermax for Shay guilis Alexander but they had this window where those guys were unusually cheap were being paid less than their what they are producing and they took advantage of it to to add one of the most impactful free agents to change teams and then also in Caruso just a terrific fit so I I think this is clearly the favorites in the Western Conference at this point and I we’ve talked about this Bunch getting two Elite role players to filling around their guys the young guys are all going to get better I I’m with you Kevin I to me the best bet on the board right now from a League wide perspective is betting Oklahoma City to win the West like their team should have I mean obviously knock on wood from their standpoint from a health standpoint but they’re young there’s no reason to expect them to have injuries and they’re deep they’re versatile they can play a lot of ways they’ve got significantly better and frankly a lot of the competition at the top of the West has a step back in different ways so I I love the way the Thunders off season went and I think they’re obviously it goes without saying they’ve got an extraordinarily bright future you guys both uh when we talked about this had under the radar winners both Western Conference teams uh bontemps why don’t you tell us who your C of under the way under the radar winner uh is it’s going to be polite and let the machine go first but I’ll be quick uh I think the Warriors one of the big winners of the summer obviously Klay Thompson leaving is a disappointing thing as somebody who’s a neutral basketball fan and has spent a lot of time around the Warriors and really likes clay and would have like that situation to work out differently but I think Klay is in a good situation for him personally in Dallas the way that went and I love what the Warriors did turning Klay Thompson into buddy heel Kyle Anderson and DeAnthony Melton I think they unquestionably got better and I think Mike D did a really good job The rosters deeper I think if de Anthony’s back is healthy obviously a critical thing we talked about a lot last season with Philly but if his if his back is right I bet he’s there starting two he can guard ones and twos and he’s a really good shooter like he’s basically Gary Payton except he can actually be a consistent three-point threat and then you got buddy heels who could do a lot of the stuff Clay Thompson did he’s one of the best Shooters in the league he’ll be coming off the bench for them in sort of the role they wanted Klay to play um so I think that’ll be good and Kyle Anderson playing in the Steve cerr offense with motion and um you know using his High basketball IQ he also the fact that he’ll have the ball takes away some of the issues with him from a shooting perspective he can run the point when Steph isn’t out there I I just I really think they got better I think there’s a real chance assuming again health for Steph in particular and if Draymond Green kids stay on the court I think there’s a real chance for a top four team in the west next year hton you’re under the radar winner yeah I don’t think there’s a chance they’re a top four team in the west and I think eventually the discussion about them got to uh no no no not saying Golden State I’m saying my my winner oh oh oh I thought we I thought we were going to have another potential bet on our hands on the bot no no my winner is not not realistically going to get in the top four and and I thought that eventually the conversation between the two Tims got to a good place with uh a line of 35 and a half for them I I guess we should look up what their actual line is if those are out yet I don’t know right now is that where we set was that negotiate nothing no no no I said 36 and a half because McMahon set up to 44 and said around 30 and he got very angry so it never both you’re both a little extreme uh but okay I I’m sorry I didn’t know there was a number agre to Pelton so I I was just saying the proposal yeah it wasn’t and those those lines are not yet out uh from the the odds makers quite yet but uh San Antonio I I really like what they did in terms of being more competitive next season getting a better idea I think of where they are with Victor in year two you know uh Bon last week was a little skeptical of how much Chris Paul and Harrison Barnes would actually help them win and and my Counterpoint to that was the important thing is not necessarily how good they are at their stage of their care this career although you know I think they both certainly can still help and that Barnes might have trade value down the line a lot the Kurt Thomas uh pair of Trades with the the sonics back in 2007 that uh has come up repeatedly on this podcast but the the thing is really more the guys that they are replacing and San Antonio’s point guard rotation out of Trey Jones was so weak last season I think it it helped hold Victor back and you know not only do they have Chris Paul there the the other interesting thing that’s happened Stefan Castle had a bit of a slow debut at the California classic he was terrific on Saturday in his first game here in Las Vegas going up against his former Yukon teammate Donovan kingan was the best player on the court shot the three looked really well looked really comfortable shoy it that’s obviously the biggest question about you know his future but you know if he is the number four pick is able to help right away and I I think the comparison that I had watching him was a bit like watching Cas Wallace last year wasn’t taken as high but you know another guy where we knew the defensive chops were there the question was about you know his shooty ability and I mean everybody everybody you bring up castle and just the first word everybody in the league says shooting shooting shooting right yeah so if he can he can shoot even a little bit you know he’s going to help them I think as a rookie because of everything else he can do you know I I really liked him is proc ECT despite the fact that you know those questions existed about his shooting so you know I think this is a team that has a chance to take a solid step forward but then the other element of why they’re a winner is they’ve continued adding to these draft picks that they can trade down the road uh the next big star that comes available I I don’t know if you’ve heard San Antonio would be a good place for a Star to end up you know what’s funny is that they’re still kicking the ball down the field with the kawh Leonard trade because the ass the assets that they that they got from from Toronto ended up they ended up trading you know remember purle yaka purle was in the deal that they uh traded Leonard they traded purle back for a draft pick that draft pick turned into the eighth pick this year they traded the eighth pick which was um Rob Dillingham to Minnesota for a pick and a swap so they believe it or not still have the the the kawhai Leonard like sort of um you know IOU still rolling it down the field so more than that because they also still have a first round pick from Chicago via the Demar D rozan signning trade the first Demar D roen sign true somehow they have ended up getting first swap in this case but getting the best asset in both demard D rozan sign rather it’s rather it’s rather amazing work on both ends and I do think the Spurs were definitely a winner of the offseason for the way they comported themselves across the board and I think they’ll be better I just think that in our excitement and exuberance about where Victor is headed which is all Justified because he is awesome I saw uh Kenny ainson this weekend uh who’s coaching the French national team and he is odd by Victor as is everybody else uh it’s just very rare that teams take a 15 plus win jump year-over-year particularly in a conference as deep and loaded as this Western Conference where you could argue that including the Spurs I think there’s 13 teams that realistically can make an argument that they could wind up in the top 10 next season so that’s all my that’s all that’s all my stance is on where the Spurs are at over the course of the year we talk hundreds of hours on this pod and you know hundreds more hours off the Pod and we all take positions we all sort of have positions they’re sometimes shifting and bont temp’s position on Victor is just remains where it’s at he’s he loves Victor he’s a good player but he’s he’s holding that ceiling down I’m the opposite I say no ceiling shall be holding no there’s a no I’m not holding ceiling down I think he’s going to be the best player in the NBA I just think I’m not making an accusation only pointing out this is your position you’ve taken this position he’s holding expectations down yes the Spurs are I don’t think the Spurs are going to win four I mean again McMahon the other day this all began because McMahon declared the Spurs could win 44 games literally double their win total that basically never happens maybe it will happen I just think if you’re guessing on what’s likely happen it’s unlikely they will double their win total I do but I but I agree with Kevin it’s it’s been a heck of an offseason for them and the the thing that’s been most impressive about it I think is they have been consistently planning for the future over the last 12 months or so and making solid moves that give them long-term smart flexibility with draft picks with draft Capital with salary like they put themselves in a really um a really great spot going forward and you know the Spurs plenty been plenty of good reasons to be a Spurs f for a long time and certainly looks like there’s gonna be plenty of be pton watch how much bont temps enjoys this statement because I have a rule about no thingss on Victor wanyama all I would say is I would never watch this hedge I would never bet the under I’m not saying I would bet the over on the Spurs but I would never bet the under all right we made a pod where there’s only one person makes predictions Kevin that’s all I mean I’m on today I’m happy to make predictions I know you are you have you have uh you have some gion we don’t want to call them losers we just want to call them not winners I’ll call them losers okay right on brand for both of us um bontemps your your loser that you uh are prepared to Brand here in the offseason the Chicago Bulls just a horrible offseason for them uh I mean they they wait too long to trade Alex Caruso they then trade him for Josh giddy we’ve talked about that at nauseum didn’t like that trade uh they do this demard to Rosen sign and trade as Kevin mentioned in the PO earlier Harrison Barnes decent player they don’t get him they don’t get the first round pick swap in the trade like what what are we doing here with the bulls they had the they had the asset in the trade they had the asset in the trade and they got nothing back and the Spurs got all the stuff I mean it’s just their their mismanagement across the board the past couple years has been really sort of shocking and you know the the the Caruso the process with the Caruso deal keeping him and D rozan on this team where the team wasn’t going anywhere during the season they easily could have turned them into stuff at the trade deadline probably got a lot for him instead they don’t do anything with them they signed Zack LaVine for a ton of money earlier there’s now no Market to move him anywhere they’re stuck with him it’s they’ve had a brutal offseason and it doesn’t I mean I guess the one positive is they’re probably going to be right smack in the middle of the race for a top pick and what’s a loaded draft uh because they’re not going to be good but the fact that they got there in this manner is not uh the most encouraging thing I would say if you’re a bull fan put it my all right Pelton you’re a loser I mean I think you have to say the LA Clippers look I I sort of understand how they got to this position and that they feel that you know the the rug was kind of pulled out from them with the the second apron rules coming in but you know they still could have had a window to resign Paul George give him the same deal that they gave kawh Leonard and you know have this two-year window in the tax on the James Harden contract that they resigned him to then sort of or in the second apron I should say then sort of re-evaluate after that and not deal with having your draft pick move to the end of the round and instead they chose to just you know duck entirely out of the luxury tax I think at this point they give up Paul George who you know clearly would have had value on a Max contract trade value you know would maybe have taken a no trade clause that could have limited that to a degree but I don’t think this was a Bradley Beal contract because you know Paul George is still such a coveted player and fits so well everywhere so just and letting him walk to Philly for nothing not even you know a a trade exception via signin trade I I think is a disappointment without question you know I didn’t necessarily dislike the moves that they did make I thought pretty good value on Derrick Jones Jr coming off the season you know that he had last year like bringing back Nicola Batum but you know the ultimate question is kind of for who for what what is the the ceiling on this team especially unfortunately I love a for who for what reference yes one of my favorite quotes uh great Ricky Waters Seahawks Legend uh but what is the ceiling for this team you know especially with Kawhi Leonard’s Health again in question after he was forced to withdraw from USA Basketball you know they really need him healthy now because if it’s not him James Harden is the only guy that they have as a reliable creator of offense all right I I’m uh I’m here in Abu Dhabi I’m Gonna Be Seeing mik yic um playing against Team USA on Wednesday I’ll see him then in France they just had a very impressive it was a friendly but they had a very impressive win over France in France um earlier on the weekend I don’t never want to you know I always there’s certain teams I never feel are desperate and I think if you’ve got Nik yic in your in your in his prime he’s not Des you know you’re not desperate but the Nuggets took a step back I think in this off season and the interesting thing will be their next moves so they obviously lost kavus Caldwell Pope um and they didn’t have a a their backup plan basically for kcp is to play their young players the problem is is that Mike Malone Michael Malone sorry um he doesn’t seem to really love their young players because he’s as the season went along last year he just stopped playing them you know he pulled pton Watson and out of the lineup he didn’t play Julian strawther all the time uh he didn’t play Jaylen picket um he wanted to play um you know Justin holiday like he was playing Justin holiday over some of these young guys because he preferred the veteran and basically um because of finances and because Calvin boo wants U Michael Malone to play the young guys he’s basically saying play these young guys this is what I’m giving you you know play them and I’m not sure how it’s going to go I don’t know how these young guys will will do forced to play Rotation minutes and and forced to fill the role of kcp and they’ve got a Aaron Gordon contract extension that they’ve got to handle this offseason if they’re smart and they’ve you know I don’t know what kind of message they’re sending to Jamal Murray you know not sign him to his contract um before playing for Team Canada I I get it I get you know in a vacuum it makes sense but what is message does that send to your franchise point guard who’s a champion um you know it’s it’s um it’s interesting here um so many people in Abu Dhabi are are big fans of the NBA and big fans of Man City because basically the government of Abu Dhabi owns Man City football and already people who talked to me here about about the Nuggets because yic is in town they they bring up man city because one of their big rivals is Arsenal also owned by Stan koni and the way he operates spending with Arsenal is the way they’re seeing um the Nuggets operate um uh was spending now and so um there is their smart organization Calvin Booth is a is already proven to be a strong executive they you know Michael Malone’s proven to be an excellent coach they have ability to move out of this but considering the competitiveness in the west and that joic is in his prime I don’t think you ever want to be put on the loser or potential loser list so they did sign Dario sarich they got him to um a uh decent number he sign him the taxpayer mid-level exception but that was their move their move was to sign a backup big man um their move wasn’t to add a wing depth which you know they need um because again it’s very clear Calvin Booth wants to force Michael Malone into using those guys he’s drafted and I’ve been around a long time I’ve seen this happen many times over the years where a general manager wants to force a coach to play his draft picks and sometimes it works out and sometimes it don’t and so I’m just going to say we’re just GNA keep an eye on that so and also they got a terrible break this week I didn’t know if donon Holmes was GNA actually contribute to them uh who who they drafted in the first round but they obviously valued him a lot because they don’t have a lot of extra assets and they use some to trade up to get him and then he tour his Achilles um this week well their promise to him got out in the league to such a degree that they had to trade up and get him because everybody knew that they bu him in the draft and yeah Tes Achilles in his first game and yeah look I mean we talked about it a bunch not not keeping the best starting five arguably in the league together when it’s simply what seemingly is either it’s either a money decision from sanr or it’s Calin boo just didn’t think he was worth doing it here’s the thing if you go into the second apron you’re mostly Limited in your team building but this team is built correct so um you know that’s the thing like you’re you’re basically just doing it for monetary reasons so or or Calvin boo just didn’t think it was worth having them on the team regardless but I mean Calvin Booth wants Payton Watson and Christian Brown and Julian Str Jaden picket to play that’s what he wants and as we’ve talked about they better win because you got Nicole yoker team in his prime and you’re losing key players off the team what you could have kept and there was no nothing stopping from doing so it’s not great um you have any comments Pelton yeah I mean Char becomes more important with that donon Holmes injury and and they agreed to that deal beforehand so presumably they were expecting I think him to play over donon Holmes I second this season but well their big signing last last year was Zeke Naji and it’s not a vote of confidence in Zeke Naji that you signed Dario SAR instead of a wing I’m sorry to you know keep going back to that but no I mean brought up a bunch it’s true um and the other thing just because we’ve we’ve bounced around on a few things I I think a couple teams that um have had a bit of a disappointing offseason not through necessarily any fault of their own is the Lakers and the Bucks just from the standpoint that because of where those two teams are they had did not have a lot of ability to do a lot with their teams and you look at you know you look at the East the way these teams of the East have leveled up and obviously Boston is coming off wining the title and you look at the way these teams and you know the way things have maneuvered around in the west certainly in the the area that the Lakers are in it’s going to be you know difficult I think for both of those teams to end up in the same spots they were last year well the Bucks have to hope that minimum signings hit you know Delon Wright and torian Prince like they’re relying on those guys and you know when you rely on um minimum guys you often get spotty results but you sometimes also hit a grand slam and so um they they let Malik Beasley go they couldn’t afford to pay him they didn’t let him go they lost him and you know say whatever you want that guy made a lot of Threes for them last year so like you know when you when you have to keep relying on these minimum guys and nobody knows that more than the Lakers you know the the Lakers are moving on from Tor and Prince and that’s what the who the Bucks although Prince was above the minimum but um yeah so uh do you have any under the radar losers there Pelton yeah I would say I didn’t really love Detroit’s off season one of the questions you hear during summer league is you know we didn’t part of the reason Denver is now out of draft picks is they had to send three of their second rounders to Charlotte to get them to take on Reggie Jackson who you know was only making I think about five and a half million Detroit took on 16 and a half million and Tim Hardway Jr and sent back Quinton Grimes to the Dallas Mavericks and got three second round picks now I think those second round picks are maybe a little more attractive and you know some of those Denver ones are contingent on other other trades and and Denver conveying first round picks but you know still for Quinton Grimes to have that little trade value after he was kind of the core piece in the the buan bogdanovich Alec burk’s trade with New York is is a disappointment and one of those cases where I think you know you change Executives Midstream and then someone else comes in with a different valuation on the players that the old regime had just acquired Pelton we’re kind of doing this in mid-stream there’s there’s a there’s games going to be played in summer league after we record this pod but first couple days of summer league what’s your takeaway highs and lows yeah I think the the top four picks all looked really good in their debuts is the first thing I’d say Zachary rash and Alex SAR going against each other is the the number one and number two picks I thought R showed a little more you know juice off the dribble than I was expecting uh some really strong moves with his left hand SAR was very impressive defensively you know a little quieter offensively it’s tough for Bigs in summer league but did knock down a pair of Threes off the dribble that’s you know kind of showing that exciting offensive upside that he has the number three pick Reed Shepard was probably the standout of the first couple of days you know his shooting is expected got where he wanted on the court I I had a scout compare him to Mark Price which I I think is an interesting and that would be an amazing that’s obviously a best price was not that athletic I don’t uh I mean you know especially after he blew his ACL but okay true but another guy who really thrived with his shooting at right but a shorter guy you know price was 61 Mark Price is also a heck of a player that if he showed up in today’s NBA he would have he would have been a monster so like if if re first team fairly certain Mark Price made first maybe second Team all NBA maybe he made first team all MBA I’m pretty sure he did I’m gonna look it up right now but I that’d be a heck of an outcome yeah I mean that’s again a really good outcome for the rockets and we already talked about castle four time Allstar first team allba 93 three time third Team all NBA player so four time all NBA he’s he the heck of a player yeah L LED Cleveland some Conference finals against Chicago and then dton connect you’re dipping into my you’re dipping into my childhood here I’m well aware I’m well aware uh doton connect I thought also was really impressive in his debut here for the Lakers he’d also played in the California classic uh but you know I think was the leading score in that game with with Reed Shepard and uh I thought showed some playmaking off the you know his ability to find teammates off the dribble that was exciting we know about the shooting and then held up defensively pretty well all right well we’ll be talking more about both Team USA and summer league as the week goes on uh we are switching up our schedule a little bit we’re going to reduce back to um two podcasts a week from three but um somehow I think mcmah and bonts will still get their takes off thank you to Adrian and Jackson our producers thank you to Pelton and bontems for stopping by thank you for watching and listening the hoop Collective we’ll talk to you soon

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN’s Tim Bontemps and Kevin Pelton to talk the biggest winners & losers of the NBA offseason so far including a hugely impactful extension for Jalen Brunson in New York, the 76ers’ & Thunder’s key moves, tough losses for the Bulls & Clippers, some teams with impactful under the radar moves and more! Plus, some early NBA Summer League reactions.

0:00 Windy’s Lost Luggage
3:11 New York Knicks – Offseason Winner
19:47 Philadelphia 76ers – Offseason Winner
25:25 OKC Thunder – Offseason Winner
27:48 Under The Radar Offseason Winners
36:07 Chicago Bulls – Offseason Loser
37:49 LA Clippers – Offseason Loser
39:39 Denver Nuggets – Offseason Loser
45:17 Under The Radar Offseason Losers
47:26 Summer League Takeaways
49:35 Thanks For Watching!

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