Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Cavs-Pacers Series Preview with Tony East

Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Cavs-Pacers Series Preview with Tony East

Hey, hey, hey. [Music] This crowd rises to its feet. Pakoro slams it home. Garland left wing free ball. Perfect to the lane. Locked the mobly pow and Allen blocked the shot at the rim. How with the left hand and a foul. Welcome to the Chaseown podcast, part of the Cavs Media family. I’m your host Justin Rowan. The Chaseown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Cavs. Watch over 350 channels of live sports and TV, including FanDuel Sports Network without cable. There’s no cost and no commitment. Try for free at fubotv.com/cavs. We thought we might have to wait a little bit longer to find out who was going to be the Cavs opponent in the next round. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending how you look at things, uh the Milwaukee Bucks blew quite the lead in the final seconds of the game. And we know that the Cavs are going to be playing the Indiana Pacers on Sunday. Joining me today as always is my co-host Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, buddy? I’m doing well. Uh really, really excited for this series. I think it’s the best basketball series uh you know that they could have had in the second round. Um you know, of anyone in the three to uh you know, the 3 to six range. I thought Andy was the toughest test in that group and uh they’re going to get to go prove themselves uh against much stiffer competition than they had in the form of the Miami Heat. Totally agree. Totally agree. In my eyes, Indiana is the third best team in the Eastern Conference. And joining us today to help break it down, Tony East from Loftton Pacers. Tony, how you doing, buddy? I’m great. I’m really happy to be here and I’m really looking forward to the series which is perhaps the least informative regular season matchups ever for a series that I’ve ever had in my life for a playoffs. It’s not the first time because when we did the Knicks series a couple years ago, we’re like, “H, you know, every single one of these games the Cavs were missing Jared Allen for almost all of them. Darius Rice was missing.” Like it it seemed like there was never a a regular matchup. But you’re right. I I think, you know, you could probably say one and one, but even there, Tyresese Halleburn played like a a half of, you know, the the Pacers win in that game. Uh, from a Cavs standpoint, the those two games happened in January. Max Struce was getting integrated into the lineup. He was coming off the bench in favor of Dean Wade at the time. And then we saw those two late season games were about as uninformative as possible when it comes to what the playoffs are going to look like. You weren’t expecting the Pacers to illegally play three two-way players plus two of their end of bench guys. Yeah, those games are rather uninformative for this. And yeah, Hallebertton missed half of one game and the entire other one, right? Like that even if that alone makes it very challenging and makes this all the more fun because we have no idea what the chess match or battle is really going to look like from two coaches who have had great seasons being tactical. Yeah, it’s it’s a it’s a pretty dope matchup to be honest. And like I’ve said a few times that I do think both teams are going to have like a oh wait, we’re playing someone pretty competent all of a sudden uh kind of shell shock after like Indie just had had their way offensively with Milwaukee pretty much the entire series. Uh through four games I think they had assisted on 76% of their field goals which is like a bananas number. Uh I mean they’re a high assist team but not normally like 12 14% higher than second best. Tony, what did you see from them in that Bucks series? Did anything surprise you or was it a spot where it’s a little hard to evaluate because that Bucks team was not in their best shape? Yeah, it was really interesting because like I I picked the Pacers to win in seven games. I thought they’d be better, but they were even better than I thought they would be. And my big takeaway for why I was a little wrong about that is and something that I think they’ll be hopeful to do again for every series they play for the rest of their lives. They generated a good shot like whenever they wanted, right? They’d come down the floor outside of the second half of game three, which was the Bucks only win. They’d get across the timeline. They would get into their what they call random offense. One action here, one action there. The Bucks are rotating. All of a sudden, someone’s out of position or someone’s not ready for what’s coming next or it’s not a good chance for the Bucks to switch what they did quite a bit. And the Pacers would have a Pascal Syakam being defended by a small guy or Tyresese Alburn with somebody he could get into the paint against whether that was for a pass over his own shot or a favorable matchup with some other other players who have improved as rim attackers either this season or throughout their careers and they took advantage of that. Like it was extremely easy for them to score. It’s funny because every time I go to check I’m like okay the Pacers surely are leading the playoffs on offensive rating. Oh, they’re second behind the Cavs by like 20 points. But they still scored very easily in the first round. And not that the Bucks were like an awesome defense, but they were top 12 and during the regular season, I thought there would be some more resistance. They do have size. They do have Giannis, but outside of that second half of game three and like a little bit of tripping over themselves in game five a couple days ago, they could just score whenever they wanted and that made it easier for them to kind of set the terms of engagement every game. Something. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say, you know, Indiana, the the random offense, as you said, what what they do with the pick and roll and stuff like that. I just felt like such a bad matchup for the the Bucks. I I think I picked the Indie in five or six. I I can’t remember. And obviously, you know, assuming Dame was going to remain healthy throughout the series, but you know, even prior to Dame getting hurt, I think it was clear that it was just such a different matchup. And when you have, you know, Brook Lopez playing drop defense, you have Bobby Poris out there like that, they’re just not equipped to handle kind of what Indy’s bread and butter is offensively. And I I to Carter’s point, I think this series is going to be a shock to the system for both teams because I I was looking at it and and Indy’s and Miami’s defenses were identical basically uh post Allstar break. You look at some of the regular season numbers, Miami was a bit better shooting from three in comparison to Indiana. But despite those numbers, I don’t feel that’s true. Like I I I I understand that over an 82 game sample, that’s kind of how things shook out or whatnot, but how you’re going to attack Indiana defensively is dramatically different. Miami had two weak spots that you could pick at consistently in Tyler Hero and Kell Wear. Um, I, you know, Indiana actually has a point guard and not only a point guard, one of the best playmakers that that we’ve really seen in Tyrese Halburn, where Miami didn’t have a point guard. And I I think that changes how those three-pointers get generated in such a dramatic way. I I just think it’s going to be so different uh for both teams from what they were playing in the first round. Tony, if you want like Oh, go ahead, Carter. I was going to I was going to ask you to the point about uh Indiana’s defense not having a tremendous amount of weak points. How many times do you think the Cleveland Cavaliers scored less than 100 points this regular season? Well, I was actually going to bring that up earlier, but wasn’t sure if it made sense. We were talking about if the regular season mattered at all. Like, wasn’t that their worst game by far offensively? Was that that first one? One game under 100 points, and it was against your Indiana Pacers. And I’m not I I like I remember the Pacers defending pretty well in that game, but not so well that it’s like, oh yeah, they should have completely shut down one of the best offenses. Had a bad shooting game for sure, but still it it was such a wonky game because, you know, the Cavs were up at half. Hallebertton’s out. The Cavs go up by 16. And I think they just took their foot off the gas. Like I I I think they were riding like a 15game winning streak at that point. And you know, they’re up 16. Halleurn’s not playing. And then Indie just goes fullcourt press. The Cavs blow, not only, you know, blow the lead. They end up getting blown out. It was a massive, massive swing in the last, you know, 18 minutes of that game. Um, obviously, as I said, um, Max Strus was working his way back. No, Ty Jerome in that game. Um, and then they they played the the following game. No Halleurn for that one. So, we really don’t have a lot of useful data in this series. Obviously, uh, DeAndre Hunter hasn’t played against Indiana at all either. Um, so we’re kind of flying blind, but I I do find it interesting because I do think that these are teams that do play similar styles at least to some extent. Yeah, the shock to the system thing is going to be fascinating. Like you if you look at full season stats, you’re you’re going to like miss a little bit of the boat with the Pacers just because they started so bad. like they were nine and 14 and not like doomsday bad but they like couldn’t score against the Nets and they couldn’t stop the Hornets and like lost like all these terrible teams. like man are these guys just going to be the 10 seed the whole season and they’ve had like the fourth best record in the NBA since the NBA cup and a lot of their numbers since then particularly on defense are much better and that’s how they got to be and actually above average defense this year is because of the rise they had then they had practice time they got better and hard returned that obviously alone would have boosted things Ben Shepard returned right after so that’s a big part of it but you know the weak points part and I think that’s become a theme that people have written about for this playoffs is like teams love to attack weak points. That’s almost as important as like the star parts of the battle. Like Halbertton’s been getting picked on at times in the postseason. Like he even talked about himself not being the greatest defender after their game five win, right? Like it is part of what he knows himself to be, which is part of it. He’s a good team defender. Like he’s very aware of what’s going on, but you know, they they have been very good in spite of that. They have had a lot of guys get better defensively. Um, but I I think that that will be where the Pacers have to figure out like, okay, if we’re not going to get run off the floor by Cavs, team that had a 130 plus offensive rating in the first round. We’re going to have to figure out where to put Tyrese Hallebert and had to defend on a string for 48 minutes cuz I mean, it’s happened to every team, right? I’m not breaking any news by talking about Cavaliers, but like you mess up for three minutes of defense, you’re down 15. Like, you just can’t do it. Mhm. Is that where if you as a as a a on the Pacers side of the ledger, is that where you’re the most concerned just their ability to to hang offensively with the Cavs or or you know, is it or does do you have similar concerns on the defensive end uh in terms of uh you know, the the offense being able to get going against obviously this super potent front line in Moby and Allen? I think the Cavs defense is very good and the size is going to matter against the Pacers. This is not to discredit the Cavs, but if they stop the Pacers for an entire series, they’ll be the first team to do it, you know, in the Halbert and Carile kind of era. I am worried about the other end of the floor way more than that. Like the Cavs had could have had as many as four Allstars. Like they had that many guys who were worthy and like their weakest of those guys just shot what 75% for a whole series and like just dunked all over people for more steals than misses against the Miami Heat. Yeah. Right. And you know for all the things Miles Turner is good at like if he you take one step away from Jared Allen because someone else on your team got beat. Okay. The ball just over your head and in the basket. So and the the the rebounding battle has very much skewed towards the fro in those Texas on Texas battles down low. So, I think if the Pacers can guard a little bit, that that will help a lot because I think they’ll be able to score enough, but getting stops will be quite the chore, I think, for them. And that that’s true of everybody against the Cavs. Just ask the Heat. We just saw it. But, you know, there’s a lot of particulars that make me think that defense will be the story of the series. Yeah. And both teams are very similar in terms of how they perform offensively in transition. Uh, both teams are in the top five in terms of transition offense. Both are, you know, um, Cavs are 11th in transition defense. Indy’s 14th. Uh, half court offense. Both of these teams are great. Indy’s sixth in half court offense. Cavs are number one in half court offense. Half court defense is where there’s a bit of a difference. Cavs are fifth while Indiana is 16th. I I want to get your perspective on the the, you know, defensive strength of Indiana’s front court. Um because you know Miles Turner and Pascal Seakum definitely had reputations of being very strong defenders. It hasn’t felt like they’ve been as good this year. Um but maybe you know some of that is skewed by me watching more early season matchups. How how do you feel about them defensively and how they match up in particular with the Cavs bigs? Cuz I I really do feel that Moy and Allen versus Seakum and Turner matchup is going to be one of the most important parts of this series. Yeah. a lot of stuff that Turner got better at as the season went along defensively because like he was top five defensive player of the year twice. Like he’s he at one point was a game wreck on that end of the floor. I think he’s still leading the playoffs in blocks which if he does again will be the second time of his career. Um you know he he’s still talented on that end. Like when they were struggling it it wasn’t really like he looked worse but it wasn’t necessarily his fault that the whole game he’s being asked to cover for someone else who got beat on the perimeter. It’s like Miles Turner, step over and stop him at the rim or they’re going to score. And and you know, you you don’t you don’t want to have to use the mouse trap that much. You should just eradicate the mice, right? Like it he’s he’s very good, but they didn’t. But this season, he got a lot better like twoman game synergy, I would say, especially with the Pacers. Good defenders like defending pick and rolls with Nehard and N Smith have looked a lot better. They’ve been able to mix in coverages a little differently in a way that plays with Turner strengths and that’s really helped their defense. And yeah, Seakum last year and even at times really this year was a little flimsier than his rep on defense, but like there’s not a bigger switch in scheme than going from Nick Nurse Toronto Raptors style and he was playing for Darko the last year but still to the Pacers, right? So there’s new terminology. You’re doing way different things naturally and he’s gotten much better as the season has progressed. So they their two most sizable players they play are good defenders. Uh their reserve front court core guys certainly have some weaknesses in Thomas Bryant Obby Toppen like they played those guys mostly out of like hey we have six fouls for Giannis necessity in the first round. Toppen’s been a good playoff performer before Jarus Walker will hit the floor certainly and he has a nice defensive reputation but you know the Siaka and Turner’s growth on that end of the floor is actually a big part of the Pacers turnaround because you all right that they have at times looked like they’ve taken a step back on that end but they needed them to be better to save their season and they have been. Yeah. Something I’m really really interested in is what kind of scheme Carile comes out of the gate with in how they guard the pick and roll. Like the Cavs were pretty like they kind of deviated from their regular season in the sense that they really did go hunt Tyler Herro. Uh you know they they kind of in my opinion Justin feel free to disagree they were kind of a team like we’re just going to keep running our stuff until you break. They weren’t like mismatch hunters. They’re not like the Celtics, but in that Heat series, they really did pick at the scab of Tyler Herro before they decided to pick at another scab of Kaware uh in the games in Miami. This is a lot of slander for an Indiana Hooser. I’m very upset. I know. I know. Uh but uh but you know, so they kind of did they kind of did that. I I’m going to imagine they’re going to do the same thing with Hallebertton. And if they’re able to get that switch, how do you think that Indie is going to play that? Cuz switching feels really dangerous for Hallebertton. Like I don’t think you want him trying to like wrestle Jared or Evan in the post over and over and over again. Uh you know at a drop is what I think you know a guy like Turner is most comfortable with. But like, good luck. Mo, Mobly and Darius or I’m sorry, Donovan and Darius are like two of the best drop picking drop defense attackers in the NBA. Like what do you think they will do versus what they should do? Yeah, it’s fascinating like the first round gave us no indication because the whole defensive plan is like okay Giannis step is step one, two, and three and maybe even four and then everybody else figure that out later, right? And last year they had Brunson and the N rest of the Knicks who like weren’t, you know, this is the most like potent team offense they’ll have played in this era of their team that they’ll have to kind of sort stuff out because it’s very easy for me to say I bet Halburn starts the game on Max Drew, right? Okay, that’s great. Max Drew goes and sets a screen to start a possession and now what? Like are you just giving something up? Is Stress just going to be wide open for a three immediately? Gary Trent just made a trillion threes against the Pacers in the first round, right? Like it’s not that obviously helps like sometimes, but it’s not that simple. and he’s going to get caught in transition opportunities because of a strew screen, whatever, in those matchups. So, yeah, I’d imagine they they send Turner up higher because of that, try to get those guards to have to turn the corner or see another body or just give themselves time to scram and have the big man get back. But, hey, good luck. Like, that’s hard. Everybody has tried this. Like, if I can think of it, obviously an NBA coach can think of it, right? So, maybe someone’s coming from the weak side to tag Allen coming to the basket. Oh, look, Donovan Mitchell has become a better passer this year. Derrick Garland’s an awesome passer. They’ll just throw the skip pass over the top. it. They’re going to have to be really connected, which is like everybody’s favorite buzz word for just not messing up basically when you’re rotating. And that’s where the Bucks fell apart against the Pacers, right? They would stop the first action and the second one and the third one they were like, “Oh crap, we don’t know what to do or I’m not ready for whatever this is.” And if the Pacers can’t have that, but the Cavs force you to mess up because they have a lot of good players. So, you know, if you involve Hallebertton in the action, which I imagine they’ll try, or if you just keep running whatever the Cavs want to run with their two all-star level ball handlers, yeah, they’re going to generate good shots like a lot. And so, the Pacers can’t have these breakdowns. They’re just going to get run out of the gym sometimes. It does feel, sorry, Justin, I’ll toss you in just one second. It does feel like they, you know, there are when you’re when you’re coaching up a playoff defense, like you kind of are on one end, there are two ends of the spectrum. One end is simplify so no one messes up but like you know talent will kill you or go way complicated really rely on a lot of crazy rotation high effort high focus things and like you your ceiling might go up but your floor floor goes way down. It does feel like indie has to lean towards the latter end of the spectrum and just depend on their guys to not screw up as you and also like they just played Giannis like more complex you me if you if you mess up something complex it’s like it looks so bad like there’s like a wide open path to the basket and I think they did a really good job with their Giannis scheme but there were just some moments you’re like oh so obviously somebody just messed up like that that’s the best player in the series walking to the rim so that’s where the complicated parts come in is like one guy messing up causes basically everybody to Yeah, it it’s going to be really interesting to see kind of how both teams attack one another to to start off the series. Carter mentioned the the Cavs did, you know, go hunting a little bit more than we saw in the regular season. And the interesting thing about that is they don’t go to, you know, hunt out a weak defender in isolation. It’s, hey, we’re we’re going to run, you know, a double drag here with, you know, Max Struce, which I assume Hallebertton’s going to start on him, one of the bigs, and we’re going to count on this flowing into a pick and roll. We’re going to be able to generate good looks here. It’s not just about attacking you individually as a defender. It’s about causing the defense to break down. And one of the things I’m curious about is how you anticipate Indiana attacking the Cavs defense to to start because obviously, you know, the the pick and roll and pick and pop game has been a big part of the Pacers offense. Where where do you see them targeting the Cavs on the offensive end? Yeah, it’s funny you would talk about the Cavs going kind of against their style by mismatch hunting because the Pacers never do it either, right? Like that was what struck struck me at the end of game five of the game they just played against the Bucks a couple days ago. like late in the game they very often were just oh Seakum has a small on him and they would dump it into him like they never play like that and I kept thinking man if they lose it’s going to be to me because they were so focused on like m mismatch hunting guess what it worked seekum’s really good right they won the game but you know it doesn’t feel like that’s how they’re at their best and they’re just hard to prep for right because they they what they say it’s random like it’s easy to call it random it’s not to them right they know what to do they know how to flow from action to action the ball never sticks side to side. Big man’s the fulcrum. It’s flipping around. Sometimes that’s pick and roll. Sometimes that’s dribble handoffs. Sometimes that’s just there’s not a lot of offball screening. Whatever you want to call it. It’s like it’s random to us. It’s not random to them. The only reason I say that is because there’s not like a bread and butter like one action outside of crunch time when it’s like yes setting a flat ball screen for Tyrese Halurn that they’re going to do that’s going to crush a team over and over and over again. It’s just because it’s so hard to scout or like know what’s coming. That’s what their secret sauce is. Like Joe Missoula said last year the p the Patriots got swept by the Celtics, right? Handled handled in a 40 series. And Joe Mazula said that was our hardest series. Like that was the hardest series we played to prep for and be ready for because they just stress you out in so many ways that you have to be locked in for 48 minutes defensively or they’re going to score a lot. And the Pacers issue in that series wasn’t that they didn’t score. They scored a lot. They just couldn’t stop the Boston Celtics who had the best offense of all time. So, I don’t I don’t know necessarily that there’s a oh, they’re going to pull Darius Garland into every action and try to, you know, make him defend a screener or make him defend a ball handler. Like the Pacers ball handlers, knee Smith, Nemhard, everybody has gotten so much better at attacking when they get by a man or, you know, taking space in front of them to make a defense rotate. And they can all make enough shots now that the Pacers will just trust anybody to do anything. They didn’t have a single 30-point score in a single game in the first round, right? to just go from thing to thing and whoever it is can score. All those guys have grown in ways to make the system work. So it it’s not they have not been as much of a pick on the weak point thing. It’s not that they’re not doing that, but they just trust everybody to score and they have the depth to do it. So that that was a very long- winded non-specific answer to say. They’re not going to attack anything specific. They’re not just going to have this like, oh my gosh, the Cavs can’t stop this one thing. They’re just the way they play. That’s it. That is their stressor on defenses. And that’s one of the benefits of having so many high IQ players out there, right? Like they’re able to read and react and and see, you know, what’s available to them, where they’re able to put in their best work. Just like Zoom AI Companion helps us out. Carter, don’t you dare shake your head. Only you can do your best work. Zoomai Companion can help you do the rest. Like automatically taking notes, answering meeting questions, and helping you respond to your coworker. Available at no additional cost with eligible paid plans. Work happy with Zoomai Companion. I thought that was one of your better disguised reads and that’s why I was tick tickled by it because I saw it but I was like but I don’t know if anyone else is going to see it coming. So very well done sir. Uh Tony I actually do have uh you know one very specific thing I’m actually really curious about in this series and it is having to do with Pascal Seakkum. He is one of the very few players that I saw this season that the Cavs had a really hard time figuring out how to stop. Uh he is a special blend of chaotic that allows him to um to to score on our bigs in in post situations. I wouldn’t say that’s what you want to build the whole plane out of, but like it’s not, you know, there are a lot of guys who if they try to post up Evan or Jared, they’re just dead on arrival, especially if the post starts like 12 ft out. Seakum is an exception to that. And also I think Sakim is one of the best positioned players to punish the Cavaliers switching scheme that they leaned on for much of the regular season because of his post acumen because of his handle where you have to put two on the ball and his movements are chaotic enough that I think it’s hard to double in a way that doesn’t leave you really exposed. like timing the double is really hard with that kind of chaotic stop start. He’s like the like the way Darius Garland is a stop start player when he attacks the rim. That’s Pascal Seakkum postups. I never exactly know when it’s going to start when he’s going to actually make his move to the rim. He’s really physical. You know, it’s hard for, you know, guys like, you know, Sam Merrill, Max Strus, who can hold their own in other switch situations. Like, if they’re running pick and pop, I’m totally cool with Max Streus taking seven seconds on Miles Turner, you know, like that’s fine. That’s a perfectly acceptable outcome to me. Less so with Seakkum. So, I’m interested in two things. one, are the Cavs gonna switch those actions and let Seakkum get favorable post mismatches? And then the second thing I’m curious about in that Cavs win uh uh early in the season, the one without Hallebertton, Sakum was murdering them in the first half and they went to a two-3 zone in the second half and I think Sakam got like three shot attempts the rest of the game. Do you think that uh that that zone is something that the Cavs can maybe lean on in this series knowing how dangerous Indie can be shooting the basketball? Ah, the zone combo. Yeah. So, first with just Yakob, he’s just he’s got a good enough three ball this year that that’s actually like a oh crap, we got to think about that kind of shot as a defense. And he’s always been money from elbows and in, right? like effective enough that you’re on him there. And so because of those two things, you’re always sticking to him and he’s got a lot of craft, right? He can go he’s got an up and under. He hit one on Giannis in the first round and I was like, how did he even get that over the rim? He can fade. He’s got the post fade that everybody knows and he’s like quick when he spins. You know, you you can’t lean on his shoulder cuz he’ll just feel it and get around you and you can’t sag off cuz he’ll turn around and shoot over you. And it’s like, you know, it’s a 210-footer. Most defenses are like, uh, yeah, whatever. But he makes enough of them that you have to panic about it. And so, even really good defenders have to battle with technique. There’s a lot of young bigs in the NBA that, you know, this is just a fear I’ve had for a while that like they don’t guard post-ups that much coming up anymore with just the way basketball’s like changed. I don’t think Jared Allen and Evan Mobley apply to this. But like, that’s a lot of the games where I think Pascal Seakum’s at his best where it’s just some like young forward who’s like, I don’t know. I don’t even know how to do this. I’ve never had to do this before. Why do I How are you supposed to stop this? Moy, obviously defensive player of the year, knows the tricks of the trade and Jared Allen’s amazing. So, he can cut up any kind of defender because he has so much technique and ability. Uh, but zones have been a thing. I mean, so no Hallebertton was a big part of it working in that game specifically. I wrote a story about this during the season like so much of the zones against the Pacers were when bench groups are on the floor, right? TJ McConnell obviously not thought, not a zone buster. Yeah, well he was in the first round he would just like wield to the elbow and fling it over the Bucks like over and over again. I thought what is happening? How is this working? But it was but like Tophin really struggled to start the season from deep and Ben Matherin it doesn’t isn’t decisive enough with his catch and shooting at times. Like teams have been really willing to go. There’s one guy the ball sticks with. Yes. Yes. Teams have been willing to go zone against the Pacers bench because of who the units are. But in the playoffs, one, they mix and match more. And two, the Cavs, the Bucks, and the Thunder were three of the only teams that were like, “Yeah, we’ll go zone against the starters. Who cares?” And it helped that Hallebertton was out that they lost a very key shooter and setup man. But the Pacers, for some reason, every so often they see a zone, they’re like, “Wait, what? What is this sport? What do we do? How does you know?” And they in the first round, they never had that problem. They see a zone, they’d immediately recognize it. They get into their thing, and they’d score against the Bucks. So, I wonder if they’ll be ready for the Cavs defense because zone defense, because of that game that you referenced, but it has been a thorn in their side very often throughout the season. And the Cavs one is just different because of their front court size and like even does Dean Wade ever mess up ever on defense? Like that dude’s always in the right spot. His angles are amazing. So, all their big guys are just awesome. So, that that zone will be better than the Bucks zone, right? So, if it if it bogs the Pacers down at all, that will be a problem. I if I’m the Pacers, I have confidence because of the way they handled zone in the first round, but their regular season record against zone was like, okay, we probably need to be better against this. So, that is certainly something especially when it comes to Sakum cuz there’s five people standing right around you in your favorite spots in a zone to to to think about. Yeah, I’m going to be fascinated to see kind of what defensive strategy the Cavs use because only Miami uses more zone than the Cavs. The Cavs used a ton of it in the regular season. They also were incredibly switch heavy and I just don’t know if you can be as switch heavy when you’re talking about a Halleurn seakum pick and roll. Like I I think you want to fight through that as much as possible. Cass for the most part they trust their guys defensively. Like they don’t try to to hide Darius or Donovan. They they trust them to stay in front. Sometimes they, you know, on the switches they get mismatches, right? Like uh I I’ve brought this up before, but nobody has defended more Jason Tatum shots this season than Darius Garland. And that’s because Boston’s going to hunt those, you know, situations. And Darius, like, you know, he’s giving up a lot of size, but he is a very good screen navigator. He he does a terrific job of that. Donovan’s a, if you look at the numbers, is a little uh less strong when it comes to screen navigation, but both of those guys are going to stay in front of their guys. I just don’t know if you want to be in a situation where you’re allowing Seakum to get onto Darius Garland or Donovan Mitchell in those spots. I I I I I think you’re going to try to to get guys to to fight through in those situations. I’ll be interested to see if they go zone. I also be interested to see the difference in how they defend the pick and roll with Pascal Seakum versus the pick and pop with Miles Turner. Um cuz I I expect that to be two completely different strategies. But I think they got to switch that, dude. I really do because I I agree with that. I agree with the Turner one because at the end of the day, you look at that PE series and the story of it for Miami offensively other than ah uh was was that they could not crack the Cavs shell, you know, they like they would switch or they’d fight over the screen and stay connected in front. They just didn’t have to go too on the ball against anyone on Miami at any point really. And I think the Cav I’ve said this all year, the Cavs have not been the best defense in the NBA this season. I still believe in their shell defense more than any other team, you know, because when cuz that means everything’s functioning. And when everything’s functioning, you’ve got a Mobly or an Allen who is able to switch on the perimeter and another rim protector that never had to leave the back line in the first place. And I think the more you can do that, like you have a talent advantage against this indie team. Sorry, Tony. Uh, you know, I think this this Cavs team, you know, has more topend scoring talent. Uh, so like as long as you don’t let that indie machine get woring, like you’ve got a much better chance. So like and I think I mean I cannot think of a more different outcome than like uh an AJ Green Brook Lopez pick and pop defendant pick and pop than you know Max Streus or DeAndre Hunter and uh and Jared or Evan you know guarding that action. And I do think to that end this should be a big Dean Wade series because it should be a big DeAndre Hunter at the three series because if you’re able to put DeAndre on Tyrese and again I don’t think DeAndre is like an elite perimeter stopper but that action is so switchable. And if I’m going to die to Miles Turner postups on DeAndre Hunter, I guess I’m just going to die. I I just feel like that’s Hey, ask ask the Bucks about that in game four. They died. Well, you know, and sometimes like and that is the thing about this series is both these offenses are so good. sometimes they’re like they’re just going to win, you know, and like I think you’re going to have I think both teams there’s going to be a real test of like, you know, of confidence and will win cuz I think there are going to be stretches in this series where either team scores five, six possessions in a row and it’s not cuz they made cuz the other team made some huge mistake. There’s been some shocking moments in this NBA playoffs, some crazy gamewinners. One of my most like wait what moments was you talk about the Cavs shell defense. I look at the box score at halftime. It’s heat Cavs game three. The Heat are nine for 20 from deep and they’re down by over 20 points. I’m like what happened in the game? What what are how could they how are they how can they not keep up? They’re on fire. That was the whole series pretty much with the exception of game four because they they just totally quit. Like we we were sitting there, Cart Carter and I were were at games one and two and at halftime of each game we’re like Miami is shooting like 50% from three and they’re down 10 and and you looked at it and it basically was they were shooting lights out on contested twos and we were sitting there being like this is going to fall apart. You are not going to be able to sustain this. You are not getting the the shot quality that is going to allow you to to keep up with the Cavs. And I I think they just kind of broke after a little while. They they gave it the best shot. I think everyone thinks that. Yeah, I I think that’s fair to say. I think even some of their exit interviews reflected that. One thing I’m curious about, Tony, is there guys that were playing in the first round that you think are going to have a lesser or larger role for Indiana going up against the Cavs? What What do you That’s a good question, co-host. Thank you very much. I’ve actually been thinking about that and I’m not really sure there should be a ton of shift. Not because the teams have personnel that’s similar, but because they just burned a lot of their front court bodies to like guard Giannis with fouls and be fine with that. And so, yeah, the Cavs don’t have Giannis, but they have more front court size besides, you know, one player. Like, they are going to be big for a lot of the game. So, like they’re not going to send away Thomas Bryant. Like, they’ll need a backup five to play for sure. Now, Obie Topp’s gonna play. Jarus Walker maybe would be the guy who’d play a little bit less, I suppose, but not I mean, he’s a valuable guy with size that can make shots. Ben Shepard, they dust it off cuz he’s one of their best perimeter defenders at not allowing blowbys. Hey, look, the Cavs have two elite ball handling guards. Like, they’re going to need him to play. McConnell’s going to play. M’s going to play. Toppin’s going to play. So, I don’t think so. But, I’ll be curious how the series kind of shifts that. Like if the Cavs, how much do the Cavs go to whatever their reserve front court ends up being in the series or is it just like 40 minutes each for Allen? It won’t be. That’s just not what I think there. I don’t think it will be either. Kenny uh is just, you know, he’s been really committed to a deep rotation. With that said, it’s been, you know, if you look at just the box score and you do a quick glance, you’ll see, I mean, until Darius got hurt. You know, Darius got hurt. He went down to nine. But like when you look at games one and two, you see, all right, he played 10 men kind of. He played eight and then like a a short shift for Dean in the first half and a short shift for Okoro in the first half. And that was kind of what he, you know, so he played 10 nominally, but he really played eight. But like I don’t think you’re gonna see a lot of these 40minute uh windows because even when he does that the Cavs bench is so good so vital that you know it’s just really hard to get your starters to to 40 plus minutes if Ty Jerome is playing 2627 DeAndre Hunter’s playing 2627 like Sam Merrill is playing 22 23 like all of a sudden you’re just kind of like running out of minutes to aortion. The the thing is it doesn’t feel like it’s a bench lineup when you always have one of Darius and Donovan out there, one of Jared and Evan and and the best player league, Ty Jerome. I was about to say and to to help you know bridge those minutes, you have DeAndre Hunter and Ty Jerome who were two of, you know, top players right now, right? And then oh, who who are we going to throw, you know, at small forward? Well, we can still have Max Duce out there. We can have Dean Wade out there. We can go to Isaac Coral. We can go Sam Merrill. I am interested to see who Kenny goes to because as I was wondering that is this the series Kenny tell me if I’m wrong it feels like every time he has to make a decision he’s like I want the shooter I picked the guy who can shoot better like is this the series he like kind of indexes towards defense a little more with those decisions. I’m not sure. I think if I’m Kenny cuz like I think I was really really pleasantly surprised by Sam Merrill in the last series. I would say I was disappointed by Isaac Okoro, but like the it wasn’t it was very clearly not going to be his series very quickly and I do think that they are going to need to index on positional size a little bit more in this. Indy’s just so big and that the Pascal postups loom um you know Jarus Walker is just rugged, super physical. Obi-Wan can be a terror in transition. He’s not like a postepth threat, but like they just have a lot of big dudes who even Mathan’s like a very big wing. And I do wonder if this is a Dean series more than a Sam series. So maybe Sam still plays, but like I think positional size for for defensive purposes makes a lot of sense, especially if you’re getting your playmaking somewhere else. But like I also just think like you’re gonna need to be able to attack them in multiple spots. That’s why I kind of like more minutes of DeAndre at the three playing alongside Darius, Donovan, Tai, two of those guys at all times. Just you can constantly be attacking because I think the ball pressure from Indie is my that’s like my number one like subplot for Indie defensively in the series is how much pressure they put on you on the ball. So like I don’t know. It just does it doesn’t feel like a Sam series to me, but I was pleasantly surprised at how much the Miami series was a Sam series. So, I don’t know. Yeah, I didn’t think the first round would be a Jar series. He played very well. And I mentioned six bench guys when you asked me about that. They never played all six in one game, right? The first two games, no Ben Shepard. Then it was no Jarus Walker, but then Matherin got hurt. So, they got both those guys in and then in game five, Thomas Bryant hit the floor for one possession for rebounding purposes. He was the guy effectively out. So they never actually played 11. It’s always been five specific bench guys. So if you made me guess fully healthy who the Pacers reserve would be that doesn’t play. I would guess to start the series he’d be Jarus Walker. But it wouldn’t surprise me if after like one or two games like okay we can’t stop him anyway. Let’s just go small in the front court and try to score like crazy and then Walker and Tophin and Siaka make up the reserve front. So are you suggesting Bryant would take Walker’s minutes basically? Yeah they I think you just need a center right. The Cavs just are gonna have a big five on the floor the whole time. And I the I call it the Goldilocks number when you get the right number of minutes. Like seven minutes of Thomas Bryant is probably fine. Just hustle, get boards, but his defense is not very good and he you know either shoots one or doesn’t shoot at all in the playoffs usually. So it would not surprise me if they very quickly are like, “Okay, that was a mistake.” But I would I would start with the size route and see how it goes. Walker is obviously big, but you and they’ve survived with Walker top and Seakum as their reserve front court a lot and Seakum plays with the bench groups more than any other Pacer starter. So, that would not surprise me if they went to that first, but I think it will be between Bryant and Walker for their last spot. And Shepard, you know, no one really thinks of him, but like that he’s just one of their better perimeter defenders and you’re going to absolutely need that all the time in this series. One thing that I just looked up cuz I was like, I felt like Bryant played a healthy amount against the Cavs this year. uh played more minutes against the Cavs than any other team this season. Played 70 minutes. That’s right. Because he they didn’t play the Cavs till after they traded for him. And then he played a ton in those last two games when it was he the seating the well the Pacers seating the Cavs seating was over. The the seating wars. I don’t even know what to call those for the Cavs. Uh it’s the seating eating for the Pacers. There’s the seat seating games for the Cavs. How about that? Yeah, it the Cavs that was basically March for them. Unfortunately, Boston wasn’t able to keep up. So, the the Cavs were uh a little lackluster for the last month of I was being a psycho for like weeks being like, “Oh, are the Cavs going to be trying to get homec court advantage in the finals in these games? Are they going to care at all? How’s this going to go?” They did not end up caring about that. So, it was benefited. what one of those weird scheduling things where they played 17 games in a row where they didn’t play in the same city twice in a row. Uh so it’s basically a 17 game road trip and I think going back it was actually like 22 out of 24 games uh basically from like February through March. So it was a a tough tough time with not a lot to play for and I think that showed up in the results. I’m I’m fascinated for the Cavs to see basically who this eighth through ninth guy is on on on the team and and maybe even 10th, you know, as a result of that cuz Dean Wade moved ahead of Isaac Cororo in the rotation mid series and I really like what that length can do. But if we are still rolling out Sam Merrill as that eighth guy, it becomes tougher to play Dean Wade in those spots. it becomes tougher to play that length because if you’re always going to have one of Darius and Donovan out there and Ty Jerome comes in that means Sam Merrell has to play at small forward which means you are going to be smaller. Sam has done a terrific job. Those lineups have absolutely crushed it. I I think that there’s a possibility that they continue to crush it in the series, but you are giving up size in in those matchups. So, I I’m I’m curious to see how Kenny uses those guys, where they slide into the rotation, but I I think I agree with you. I think for the most part, I I don’t see Indie changing up their rotation. I don’t see the Cavs changing up their rotation a whole bit. I think it’s going to be a pretty typical series of two feel it out games and then we see where the adjustments go from there. I have a question for you fellas and a little segment I’m inventing on the fly, which is who is the player that the opposing fan base is most likely to hate by the end of the series. You know, it’s funny you guys talking about Samill like he hit like five threes in a row two feet from me when the Cavs were in Indie that third to last game of the season. The Pacers fan base is in my mentions like are they ever going to guard Gary Trent? Are they ever going to guard AJ Green? So, uh, the profile of that kind of player suggests that Sam Merrill has a good shot of that crown. And also, Max Drew has a good shot at that crown for similar reasons. Max Streus is a 40% plus three-point shooter who I feel like goes seven for eight or two for eight in a lot of games. So, there’s a very good chance that he has like three seven for eight games. Like, I hate that Strus guy. He never misses. He’s also a talker and he’s very physical. That will be good again in a Pacers series. The Pacers are not afraid to respond to talkers and that makes a lot of it’s going to make them even more annoying cuz and that is I to be clear I think that is fun for all everybody talk. Get your yapping on. I I I tell you who I’m prepared to hate and it’s Andrew Nimhard. I think he is going to be a thorn in their side [Music] especi Andrew Nimhard uh is going to be involved in. Yeah. Uh, I think his physicality, he’s huge in the series. His ball pressure is really, really important. I think especially given that the Cavs are going to start so many possessions with bigger wings on Hallebertton means I think they’re going to do a lot of stashing of Darius and Donovan on Nimhard and he’s going to have to create shots for them and consistently get buckets just to create, you know, cuz like you can’t just do the Hallebert and pick and roll in perpetuity. Like to your point, a big part of this team’s DNA is how many places they can kill you from. I think Nimhard has just the right amount of irritation. He’s an irritant on defense and hits really ballsy shots on offense. Like he’s a shoots better than his percentages guy uh in in the right series. And like Yeah, that’s the guy I’m prepared to like, you know, ball my fist up and shake shake my fist game. I could never say Canadian. Yeah. Yeah. I’m I’m I’m not about to go Well, Matan, I can see myself. I I can see myself not being thrilled with him. I I think who I’m prepared to hate by the end of the series is TJ McConnell. I just feel like there’s going to be a stretch where that guy gets five steals in a quarter and I I just get annoyed by his face. I I think that’s the way this goes. But Carter, to to your point about Nemhard, I think it’s important for people to realize. I I tweeted this out before the podcast, but uh Basketball Index has Nemhard as a 100 percentile perimeter isolation defender. He’s awesome, dude. nails so good. He is nails. He is so damn good. He is a better than his percentages guy. Like most of those guys it’s because the shots they make are important, right? So you remember them or they like sit with you. Like he hit a huge three in overtime in game five for the Pacers and no one remembers it cuz Hallebertton scored a lot after that. But like it was a massive shot. Like all of his iconic moments are like he hit a buzzer beater over LeBron from how many feet away? He hit a game three game winner in the playoffs. Like this 32% shooter. Like he just he’s lights out when it matters. And his defense Yeah. is just absurd. Ever since Brunson, not embarrassed him, but like was the first guy that made them hard look like a not good defender last year in the playoffs. He’s even leveled up since then. And you know, you mentioned like putting a guard on him. A lot of teams will put their worst defender on Aaron Nmith. And that’s become harder to do now, too, because he’s got a little bit of wiggle going towards the rim now. So, I wonder if you if you ask me, Carter, like what are you really nervous about? It’s N Smith and Nimhard swinging a game by being chaotic, getting in transition, beating up the Cavaliers. They’re so physical at the point of attack, dude. It’s nuts. I feel like the Cavs like got a taste of that with DaVon Mitchell in terms of that physicality at the point of attack, but it’s like you’re going up a notch on on the physicality level. Like I feel like those two are closer to what the Cavs had to deal with in Orlando last year with Suggs and Harris and Fron and all these dudes just beating you up. Like those guys are so tough. It’s going to be interesting, man. I think this series is going to be awesome. Before we get you out of here, Tony, let’s get some series predictions in here. Well, you are in hostile territory. You go first. Yeah, I’ve been leaning towards the Cavs since this was revealed as going to be the series. The length is challenging. I try not to be the guy who’s like, “Oh, don’t pick it in six cuz of the close out on the road.” So, Cav 6 feels right to me. I would be shocked if it was a short series. I also said that in the first round and then it was a short series. So, you never really know in the NBA these days. Maybe I’m underelling the Cavs in their 138 offensive rating. Cavs 5 is I assume going to be a popular that holds it’ll be Cavs four. I think I am going to go Cavs six or seven. Um, but I picked Knicks in seven last year and the Pacers beat them. So, that does not mean I am right or good at predictions. Carter, uh, I’m going Cavs and five here. Uh, I I I like I I but with a important caveat that I think four of those wins could be tough as hell. I do not think this is a dominant Cavaliers series where they’re just winning. If they win two games by 20 or two games by 20 is too big. If they win two games by 15 10 15 like I’ll feel really really good about this series. I respect the heck out of this indie team. You know, they just to your point earlier in the pod, Justin, they just don’t have a lot of weak links. They play a lot of guys who are pretty darn good. I think they are a little short on guys who are uber elite, which is why I think the Cavs should have the advantage in crunch time in some tight games down the stretch, which is why I’m picking Cavs and five. But like I said this to Jason Temp on his pod earlier today that if you were to like make me pick like a likelihood, I would chunk Cavs in five, Cavs and six, and Cavs in seven in a very tight odds window. Like I don’t think that me picking I’m going to steal that. I’m sorry. I’m stealing that. Yeah, enjoy. Uh, you know, I I think you’d have to take, you know, a little tier lower for for Pacers in seven, you know, um because I do think the Cavs should be overwhelmingly likely to win this series based on all the metrics that we have in front of us and all the tape from round one. But I think it’s going to be really, really hard work and it’s going to be honestly just way closer to the test we thought Miami might be able to give this Cavs team in terms of making them win the series. Yeah. Yeah. And and I’ve been going back and forth between five and six. I think there’s going to be a game in this series where Indie is just flat out playing like the better team. If we sweep them, that would be insane. Well, no. I I don’t I don’t think that’s going to happen. I I think I think Indie is going to outplay the Cavs in one of these games. And whether it’s five or six is going to come down to is there a wild shooting variance game in either direction. Like it’s no I I think back to the the first loss that the Cavs had against Atlanta where they got 32 wide openen threes and shot uh 20% on them. Like if that happens or if Indie shoots like you know 60 70% uh on like on their threes which we we’ve seen them do in versus the Cavs in the past. Uh I I can see that extending the series. Um, there’s no way I’m going to let you pick fewer games than me, though. So, I’m going to go five. That’s that that’s where I have to go. You’re You’re not going to have optimist. Here’s the thing about uh Justin Tony is I pick I try to pick these series intellectually. He picks them in a way that won’t get him yelled at by our listeners because uh he’s a coward. No, I’m a man of instinct. I am a man of guts. I am a man of feeling. I I I ignore my brain when I’m making picks. I I I go with that. My heart’s just clear. And it makes me right more frequently than you. Didn’t you pick Milwaukee? Let’s put you I I think I I think you did. I think I said it would be closer than people thought. I don’t think I And I said it wouldn’t be. I said it was five games and he’s going to clean them up. I picked I picked Cavs in seven against Orlando when everyone else was saying it was going to be five or six. And I picked Cavs over the Heat in four. I also told you that Detroit was going to win the series. And you know, if if the last two minutes are down three correctly, if the if the last two minutes was called correctly, they would have already won the series. Tony, I’m sorry that that you have to hear us bicker like Tony’s take Tim Hardway was not fouled. Anyway, continue. Oh, wow. Yes. I disagree with everyone, including NBA officials who said, “Yeah, it was a foul. Our bad.” So, and Josh Hart. Yeah, I have I have literally no ground on the planet to stand on. Well, I’m I’m sorry you had to witness mom and dad fighting. It’s it’s unfortunate, but every now and then we we got to do it. Tony, before we let you out of here, let the people know where they can find you. Yeah. Yep. If you’re watching, uh, Tony Arist is on the screen, but that is my Twitter handle. I finally have like a professional boring one with just my middle initial in there. So, that’s where you can find me. Mine is still nonsense is slapping the Cavs in Canada and and that’s what it is. Thank you so much for having us uh for coming on. Uh make sure you guys are checking out Locked on Pacers throughout the series. Always good to be getting that perspective from our other team. Big thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Make sure you guys like and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know when we’re going live. If you’re listening via podcast and you want to support us, leave us a rating, leave a review, subscribe, unsubscribe, resubscribe, and help cook those books. If you want to be part of Chase’s exclusive Discord chat, send a screenshot there to [email protected]. However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are staying safe out there. Until next time, go Cavs. [Music]

Justin and Carter dive into a Cavs-Pacers series preview with Locked on Pacers host Tony East!

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