The Case for the Cleveland Cavaliers STANDING PAT | What to Make of Indiana Pacers Playoff Success

The Case for the Cleveland Cavaliers STANDING PAT | What to Make of Indiana Pacers Playoff Success

Has the Pacers run to the potentially NBA finals soften the blow from the Cavaliers postseason loss? And why the Eastern Conference outlook makes for an interesting situation for the Cleveland Cavaliers? And maybe we jump the gun at trying to change things up. We’ll talk about all those things and more coming up on the latest episode of Courtside with the Cavs on S. What’s up, Cass fans? to Spencer German and Spencer Davies back at you here during the off season which is underway. It feels weird Spence I’m not I it feels like the season ended like a really really long time ago and it really didn’t end that long ago like we just heard from Kobe Holman obviously la early last week. Um but man like this this last week just feels like it’s been it’s been very sluggish. It’s it’s weird not having Cavs basketball in our lives. I’m sure you feel the same. It is. I hope you’ve been enjoying your Maple. I mean, it’s been really cold outside for this time of year and yeah, it feels like we should be back in, you know, Rocket Arena covering another playoff series and it’s just kind of thrown us a little bit off. Like I’ve went to a concert. I’ve gone golfing a bunch of times. I’ve spring cleaned around. You found a way to golf in this weather, huh? I have. I have. Hey, where there’s a will, there is a way when it comes to being on the links. No doubt. But that’s very fair. It is different. It is different. And I’ve enjoyed watching the NBA playoffs. I was a little disappointed with how the series in the West ended last night with the Wolves and the Thunder. Obviously, OKC coming out and bludgeoning that team and really just kind of burying them in their grave. Um hopefully we see a little bit more fight out of the Knicks against the Pacers, but as we know, Carl Anthony Towns could be out for that game. He’s questionable with an injury. So, it could be more of the same. And I’m sure that’s a good kind of place to leave it for where you want to go with this with the Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, the Thunder is an interesting part of this, too, and you with you bringing up them because on on one hand, you see the Thunder do what they did all season, and they end up in the NBA finals, which is what we thought the Cavs potentially could do after they, you know, just dominated the Eastern Conference this year, one seed, 64 wins, all those things. We thought that these two teams were kind of on a collision course. And so on one hand, there’s probably some disappointment in seeing one team in the West do that and complete the job and the team in the East that did that not finishing the job. But I I also think as you look at the Eastern Conference and you look at the team that’s most likely to represent the East in the finals, this Indiana Pacers team that you lost to in five games. I do wonder, Spence, and and I know we try to kind of put our our, you know, media hat on and not let like the fan perspective influence us in a lot of ways, but I I do wonder if like there’s any solace for fans in seeing I I know it’s hard to turn the these games on. Kobe talked about that, right? And watch the teams and be like, well, I feel like the C should be playing, so this is just disappointing to me. I get that. But I do wonder if there’s any solace for fans and and even I guess the organization to an extent in in seeing this Pacers team that that beat you do the same exact thing to the Knicks. Like it almost cements that it wasn’t this fluke, right? That this Pacers team was really really good. And in some respects, I’m not saying you and I disrespected the Pacers. Like I think we both felt like that was a really really good team that the there was a potential mismatch there in in c certain areas and that the Cavs, you know, had to be on their their P’s and Q’s if they were going to win that series. But I do think there was kind of just a general sense of disrespect towards the Pacers just from a an NBA coverage perspective in terms of maybe not thinking they were this good, like that they were NBA Finals caliber, an NBA Finals caliber team. And I’m actually now like looking ahead thinking if they do advance past the Knicks, you know, like they actually I think could give the Thunder even some trouble, which has been they’ve been such a good team this year. And so I just wonder if fans take any solace in that and it at least softens the blow of that defeat a little bit a couple weeks removed from them losing that series. I think it’s a little bit of a mixed bag just based on the responses I’ve gotten on X. I did tweet this out five days ago. Maybe instead of looking for every reason in the book as to why the team they played failed, maybe we should finally tip the cap and give the Pacers their just due. It’s been one month and three rounds. So, that was kind of my take on it. And then I got quite a few responses from that. A little bit of a mixed bag. Like I said, no, the Cavs still played like ass. One of my favorite ones. Indie on a 60 win pace. Indie on a 60 win pace since January 1st. Um, if they win this, then this will be the first series in two years they’ve beaten a healthy team. Uh, they don’t beat the Cavs healthy versus healthy. I disagree with that. Um, you know, like, and then this one was interesting because this actually had a little bit of nuance to it. This guy said, “Everything is clicking, but both Knicks and Pacers are mid. Pacers are just a better team and hot at the right time. They can win it all and still be a second round exit next year. I give them credit for the moves they made, but it would also be annoying because they’re not that good. They’re well coached and take advantage of their situations. I see them as this generation’s Lebronto Raptors. To which I replied, well, that’s ironic because Pascal Seakum was technically on those teams the first couple years, and Pascal is a pivotal player for this Pacer team. But I don’t necessarily agree with that notion, but I could see where the guy is coming from. So, there is there’s there’s a bunch of ways to look at it. My thing is though, like if you’re going to say they’re not a good team and then be like they’re just really well coached, it’s like well that’s what kind of makes them a really good team like that. Like wouldn’t we say the same thing about Kenny Atinson? Like if people said the Cavs weren’t good, we’d be like well look what Kenny Atinson has done with them. Like or that that’s at least our argument during the season. You talk yourself in circles with this stuff. And then you look at Tyrese Hallebertton going out and getting 32,5 and 12, whatever the hell it was with zero turnovers. And then now the next thing on national television the morning after is talking about is he still a superstar? Like get the hell out of here, man. Like stop talking about this crap. And you know what? It generates views and it generates conversation which is what we want to do. But it I’m just so sick and tired of the way that this league gets covered, man. I get it. I and listen, I I do think there was a little bit of sleeping on the Pacers. Um and and part of that was because the Cavs earned that, right? Like the Cavs did had such a good season that we all kind of sat there and we were like, well, hey, there’s no way they’re going to lose this series. They’re we think they’re a better team. They’re so good that we thought it’d at least be like a sevename series and if you lose on like a buzzer beater or something, you know, so be it. But um I think that there’s been a lot of respect paid in in over the last week or so to the Pacers for just being a really good team with a really good coach as that one person pointed out. Um, and I also think too like I just from a a completely unbiased, you know, just standpoint of like covering the NBA and covering an NBA team, I think it’s been a lot of fun to watch the the this this next chapter of of Tyrese Hallebertton, you know, from from the playoffs beginning and he’s voted the the most overrated player in the league by some of his peers apparently. And then for him to do what he’s done in this postseason and just be like purely brilliant in some of these games. I mean he has two triple doubles now in the postse like he had a triple double the other night. Just remarkable remarkable stuff. He’s a very fun player I think to watch. Um maybe that’s blasphemous to some Cass fans. I don’t really think Cass fans hate Tyrese Allebert and I think like the overrated chance during the the games that we heard was just kind of like leaning into the the storylines about him. But like he’s been a lot of fun and I think he has emerged along with this Pacers team as just this there’s like this resounding sense I get that everyone is kind of having to tip their cap and just say you know what that Pacers team is really good and and I do think on some level that that that that does for me from where I stand I think it does as you look back on that series soften soften how it ended a little bit because you realize like okay this wasn’t like the Cavs lost to some unworthy team, if you will. They lost to a team that was probably slept on to an extent and is proving round by round that they are they are the best team in the East right now. And and you know, someone’s going to have to knock them off. Maybe it’s the Knicks and they come back and and pull this thing off in seven games. But man, like they they are proving to you they’re the best team in the East right now. And so in that in that regard, like they deserve the respect. And that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be changes for the Cavs, but it does mean that I I think like there’s there’s added context to why that series went the way it did. Added context is important and I think us as media members and us even just as hoop heads, I like to show a little respect to the opponent that kind of beat you, right? Just just flat out beat you. Fans on the other hand, I think there’s a jealousy thing in there and and it’s understandable from from a fan perspective because you’re like, “Oh man, these guys really.” And with Tyrese to me, like he went out there and he’s not even taking over games per se. He’s just playing very smart. He’s playing very smart. and hitting shots at the big times, at the right times, like the gamewinner against the Cavs in game two was insane. But you look at that happening the next round in the conference finals in the first game of the series in a comeback from down 18 or whatever the hell it was in the fourth quarter and you get the 2K roll that we talked about on last episode, of course, but I feel like it’s just this given credit. You know, it’s destiny. Sometimes the ball rolls your way. I think we’re gonna talk about how luck absolutely plays a factor in the postseason as well. And there is a little bit of that on that side, but you can’t all put it on to that. It’s it’s definitely the work they put in. It’s the system they play with and nobody is ready to run with them. I can’t wait to see what it looks like against OKC because this is the funny part. Just like the other games, they’re probably going to come in as underdogs and they’ve been slept on the whole postseason. We’ve always kind of just said, “All right, the other team’s going to totally win the series. Indiana will put a good fight up, but they’re not going to win.” I can see that going all the way through to a Larry O’Brien trophy. I don’t know. It’s just something about it. And I know that OKC looks like the one and the way that they play defense and they just squeeze the life out of you. But I’m curious to see how the Indiana Pace matches with OKC’s kind of gritty play style. That should be a hell of a finals. And screw anybody that talks about ratings because I can’t wait to see that as a basketball fan. And yes, I will say screw you one more time to do that. There’s going to be an interesting conversation to be had about like the ratings thing because I I’m actually really irked by this. This feels like the right platform to do it, but I want to wait till we actually have that as like NBA finals before we talk about it. So, that could be something for next week’s episode, Spence. But, um, yeah, like you know, Tyrese has been great. Um I I like that he’s leaned into this villain role a little bit too and you know he had he’s been timely with the way he’s done things. He’s been kind of just like a facilitator when he needs to be and he’s taken over when he needs to be. It’s been a lot of fun to watch and and to watch the Pacers become this team has been it’s it’s been an enjoyable experience just from like a basketball uh as you said a basketball head like somebody who enjoys this game and this sport and I will too be enjoying an NBA Finals that features those two teams regardless of the market size and it does feel like the Pacers pace is going to be the thing that gives them a chance in any series. It’s it’s that’s been the case to this point and if that happens against the the the Thunder like they could be in for quite the series as well. So, we’ll see how it all shakes out. But along the lines of that exact thing, um the Pacers go in on this great run and you know, you look at the four teams that were left in the playoffs for this round and the number one thing that you can look at and say is about all of them is that they were all healthy at the right time. And so this is where Spence I I think you know the the two we we we said we we talked about this a little bit after Kobe Alman’s uh press conference. Two things can be true. There can be room for this team to develop and grow. The Cavaliers I’m talking about and there can be changes that maybe need to be made. And I think that’s the way where I find the balance in that is with the the conversation on just how luck comes into play in the postseason. Because like frankly, you had that one person who tweeted you and said like healthy healthy versus healthy I think the Cavs will beat the Pacers. You said you disagree with that. But I do think if the Cavs have been healthy, that series doesn’t end in five at the very least. Like I think they definitely like it’s a closer series than what it obviously seemed like by the end. And maybe they win game two and they pull that one out like they should have. Like there’s different things that could have played out. But um as I think about health of teams this time of year, there is a luck factor that is always going to fac that that is always going to play a role in in any team’s chance of winning a championship. And as as I think about like how that looks like big picture in the NBA, this is where Kobe Alman’s argument of listen Evans development is is key for us. We think there’s another level he can get to. you know, we don’t we and him at least saying that they still view Jared Allen and some of these and all these guys as important to their future. Where I think he he he is right that if you look at the Eastern Conference next year, man, the Bucks could be without Giannis. Giannis could be headed west if if all these rumors that are swirling are true. Okay, that’s one less team that has like a superstar player standing in your way. uh the the Celtics once the juggernaut that was on everyone thought they were building this great dynasty and no one was going to beat them for years to come all of a sudden they’re not going to have Jason Tatum for most of next season and even when he comes back an Achilles injury affects your explosiveness we know that from all sports when that injury happens like there’s no guarantee he’s going to be like the same Jason Tatum as soon as he just steps back into the lineup I mean an Achilles injury kind of derailed KD’s career to an extent like he’s still a great player but is he the same KD as for probably not. So, there’s factors here that as I look big picture at the Eastern Conference, I can understand why Kobe maybe feels that way and if the organization does feel that way kind of approaching this offseason and they can they continue to preach patience as Kobe highlighted being something that Dan Gilbert certainly, you know, tries to instill in them. Um, I can see why that makes some sense because if this Cavaliers team stays healthy, maybe we are talking about a Cavs team that is playing for an NBA Finals and that is very very true. Now, where I where I push back on it is that can’t be your only solution, right? You you can’t just bank on, well, hey, let’s let’s run it back next year because if we stay healthy, we’re probably in the NBA finals and if guys keep developing, we’re probably in the NBA finals. can’t be the only thing that you’re like grasping at. But I do think there’s room to to believe that anybody who’s out there maybe suggesting like they got to blow up everything and trade a bunch of different guys. I think it’s smaller tweaks that need to be made to this team. I guess it depends on like your scale of of small versus big. Like I guess breaking up some of the core four would be considered a bigger thing. But if you trade like one guy out of the core four, I don’t know that that’s like a massive like a massive change if you’re getting somebody you think is going to help you get over the top. So I don’t know. I I don’t view that as like a major change, but I think there are smaller things that need to be done on on like the the this roster, but I also understand like yes, luck is a factor and and this Cavaliers team I still believe would have been good enough to win a championship had their health been, you know, up to up to par this time of year. And it just stinks that that happened. And as you look at the landscape of the East, like there is reason to believe that the Cavaliers aren’t going to go away. That they’re going to be right there with this Pacers team. they’re going to be right there with this Knicks team and there’s still going to be a very, you know, there’s still going to be an opportunity in the Eastern Conference to emerge in in any of these upcoming seasons as the the representative in the finals from this this conference. And I think when you talk about changes in the core four and whatnot, you have to at least be open-minded to it, which I feel like they are a little bit more than than the past. There’s frameworks out there on Twitter that aren’t possible with the Second Apron. And you’ve got the trade machine going and I know we’re going to do an episode with Yosi at some point. Yeah. But with breaking up the core form, my obvious pick if they were to do that would be Jared Allen going the other way just because of Evan Mobley’s development. We got into that a big big amount on the last podcast episode. So I won’t go too much further into that, but that would be my probably top target if they were to do that. You just got to make sure that you’re getting back what you’re losing. And that’s the rebounding piece of it. That’s the good screening. That’s the ability to playmake out of the role. Like Jared Allen is a good player. And as I said before, he is an allstar level center. He is very highly coveted around the NBA. No matter what you Cleveland fan think about Jared Allen, he is very highly coveted around the NBA, which is why his trade value should be high. And a lot of this too has to do with him being in his last year of this contract before his salary jumps next summer. And then I see the stuff with Darius Garland and that’s the stuff we didn’t really talk about last week that I want to get into. Yeah, a lot of different frameworks that people have been talking about. Chris Fedor floating the idea of Jaylen Suggs and Tristan Dilva in Orlando. I think Darius would be a tremendous fit with the Magic, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t know if that’s enough. And then there’s people obviously after the Wolves lost last night thinking about getting Anthony Edwards somebody to take some of the the load off of him and you know Jaden McDaniels comes up even like all that stuff don’t right now talk and I have lost and I have lost Spence. Can you hear me? So now I’m hearing myself. Do you hear me? Okay, now we’re good. Now we’re good. Now we’re good. Damn. I was on a roll. Stupid equipment. I I I was tweaking something cuz my mic wasn’t It wasn’t the right mic. Anyway, continue. I I didn’t mean to throw you off there. You’re fine. You’re fine. Um but yeah. No. So DG with Minnesota also would make sense, but is Jaden McDaniels and Dante Dvenenzo enough or another one of those guards that that has played like Terrence Shannon doing what he did in the playoffs, which I thought was actually pretty impressive for someone with as little experience as him. But I don’t think that’s enough still. And I feel like the problem that people don’t want to accept here and they just want to look at what everybody else is saying and what the national media is telling them, what the local media is telling them is that the Cavs lost because they were soft. That was part of it. It wasn’t the whole story. You know what the story was? Darius Garland was hurt and he didn’t have the capability to play up to his level. They didn’t make open shots, too. There’s a real real sample size from the regular season to where they were lights out and then they get to the playoffs and they forget how to make jump shots. It’s a real thing. I I don’t care what you tell me and you can go down all these different roads about how they need to be more physical. They need to push all the spots. Like, no. Sometimes it doesn’t work out because your offense didn’t work. And you’re telling me the offense is the reason they lost in the playoffs and not the defense? then I would have called you nuts before the playoffs. Yeah. Because they were a welloiled machine. And in the first round, again, I don’t care that the Miami Heat were not that great of a team. You go on the road and you choke the life out of somebody on their own home floor, win by 90 plus points in the first round, and you’re telling me that that team needs extreme changes? No. No. So, I I feel like the Jarrett thing makes the most sense to me. And then you look at, you know, the Isaac Aoro and Dean Wades potentially changing things on the margins and looking at that stuff. You need a Stephen Adams type if you want your backup center to have that toughness to him. But you think that Stephen Adams is going to be the reason that the Cavs score a bunch of points. No, it’s a mental thing. It’s a physical thing, but it’s not the main thing. That’s what I look at this as. And it’s just it bothers me because if you actually watch the film, they had a lot of good looks when Donovan was spraying out to the uh to the other side of the floor and they were just flat out missing shots. And that is part of the equation. It’s not the full equation, but it’s part of the equation almost as much as the physicality thing because the Cavs were the more physical team in game two against Indiana. The Cavs were the more physical team against the Pacers on their home floor in game three. I was there. I watched it happen. Yeah, they didn’t sustain it. You have to be able to sustain that physicality and you have to be able to respond when you get hit. And the Pacers just always kept coming back no matter what happened, including in game three, by the way. But the Cavs just have that part of it. they have to sustain and they have to be able to inbound the basketball or block out on a free throw attempt with 10 seconds left. Those aren’t overlying issues that people are talking about. Those are minimal things, but the as we know, the devil is in the details. Yeah, listen, like I I can I can subscribe to the idea that that series got away from them for a multitude of reasons. Injury being one of them. uh you know, you lose the first game the way you did, you just kind of got blitzed by them and and like there are flaws in the Death Star, Spence. Like there there are there are the concerns of the toughness. I understand they’re valid like there are and that’s why I think there are changes that need to be made. I’m somebody who very much prides myself on like balance and just in life in general. And I think that’s kind of where I’m at with the evaluation of this Cavs team. I think this playoff run for the Pacers and and us tipping the cap to them like we did at the start of the show of you know maybe we underestimated them a little bit. Um I think the landscape of the East that I just laid out previously uh presents a unique opportunity where it’s like hey when Donovan Mitchell says we’re going to find a way to get over this hump when he says like we’re not going anywhere, we’ll be back. When those are comments being made by this team, you can buy those because yeah, like look at the East. the East is there’s going to be a lot of changes potentially that come this the the way of the Eastern Conference. Like I said, with Giannis maybe changing teams with the Celtics being where they’re at. The 76ers, it seems like their time with Joel Embiid is just going to sort of be soured here and and it doesn’t look like there’s anything really in their future. So like there’s there’s so much like opportunity here in the Eastern Conference to still emerge as the the rightful champion at some point. And like I I don’t think you just like throw in the towel on on all the the entire blueprint just because you lost to the Pacers who have proven this postseason that they were better than people are given credit for. The Cavaliers are still I think uh the one of the best two to three teams in this conference. You know, you could argue that the Knicks are better because they advanced. Um I think you know there were certainly circumstances that that changed the Celtics outlook. Um and you know the Celtics might still be in that conversation next year even without Jason Tatum because they’re just that good. But they could be in for some changes, too. That’s the other thing. Like, they’re going to be a second apron team. Like, what does that all look like? So, I I I just think in general, like I can I can wrap my head around Kobe’s comments on, you know, we don’t have to make wholesale changes or if we were going to do that, we would have done it last year. And that patience is key while also still recognizing like, yeah, because luck is a factor, but also still recognizing that you can’t let that be your your argument for doing nothing. like your argument for doing nothing can’t just be like well hey if we get lucky next year maybe we’re in the in the in the NBA finals like it doesn’t work like that. So I I do think changes need to be made as we’ve talked about and I’m I like you still do point to Jared Allen as the main piece to move but I think what’s interesting from that is the Darius Garland part of this as well. Yeah, for sure. And being proactive is good, but you want to make sure that you’re not overdoing it because that is the most delicate part of a general manager’s job or as a team president’s job is to make sure that you don’t upset the temperature in the locker room. And I know that you can look at two second round exits and I told you already I’m not handling this team with kid gloves, but I also keep things a buck, dude. Like I’m I’m reading the comments and I love interacting with with people. But we got to probably throw some up there while we’re talking about this. I think these are very relevant to the conversation. Um my guy Rob, I really appreciate the uh the interaction. Even if we disagree sometimes on a lot of stuff, I I he’s one of my favorite uh guys on Twitter. I’m really Rob Rob I think got back to me on my comments like you’re looking to get lucky for the e in the east to be weak, but it’s not going to be weak. Like I I I I listen if you’re comparing it to the west, I think the east is going to be weaker than the than the west. the West is still going to be a gauntlet and especially if Giannis goes west. I I I I I say weak in the terms of like I think there’s less teams that you have to sort of worry about standing in your way in the East, but obviously when you got teams like Indiana, when you have teams like Boston, even without Tatum, when you have the Knicks, yes, like there are still teams that are going to challenge you and there’s teams like Orlando that are probably going to be better once Jaylen Suggs is back. There’s going to be a team like the Pistons who seem like they’re sort of on the rise here when they have some maybe moves up their sleeve. So, I’m not saying it’s going to be like, you know, uh you can just coast, but I do think like when the Cavs say these things about like not going anywhere. If they stayed exactly the same, they would still be a contending team in my eyes in this conference because there’s a lot of change that is coming. There is. And multiple comments from Rob, so I appreciate this is actually good for us because it’s giving us material. Uh, this one, we’ve talked about this before, but I do want to touch on this again because I listened back to all the press conferences from the exit interview, Spence, and I know this was a question that you had too about this squad, can toughness be learned? Can that be something that you pick up throughout your experiences or does it have to be in inside you? Do you have to have that dog in you? I think it’s a little bit of both. I feel like experience is the best teacher and that these things can give you the scars that propel you moving forward. And they have tough guys on their team. They have Max Struce. They have If you don’t think Donovan Mitchell’s tough, then you get you can you can get right out the door. That guy literally put his team on his back amongst those injuries. Does Evan have a dog in him right now? I think it’s starting to come there. I think it’s starting to come out. um especially when he was healthy, man. And and and here’s the other thing with Evan, too. You can’t scoff at all NBA second team. Like, that is an accomplishment that is insane for somebody who’s just finishing their fourth year and saw the Giannis move and all that stuff. Like, shooting is important. Like, this is this this this should be the name of the podcast today. Shooting is important. I understand that we want guys that can push people around and can set hard screens and respond and maybe throw an elbow to the throat, whatever you want. But shooting is important in today’s NBA. You know what else is important? Not having a topheavy roster. You’re supposed to be deep. You’re supposed to have guys you can depend on. The Pacers are the Pacers are doing that. The Thunder are doing that. I know we always talk about Shay, but can we talk about Alice Caruso for God’s sake? Can we talk about Isaiah Hartenstein? Can we talk about Lou Dort? One of the best defenders in the league. They have so much. Chad Holgrren has been fantastic in the conference finals. You have to have depth. Aaron Wiggins, let me go further down the list. Isaiah Joe, they’ve gone to a number of pinches. Like, they have a very deep team. The Pacers, again, N Smith and Nemhard are two of the top shooting three-pointers in the entire playoffs right now. But everyone talks about Tyrese Hallebertton. Miles Turner probably the most underrated player on that team. Pascal Seakkum is a NBA champion who is bringing that experience to this team in his second year with him. Sorry, first and a half year with him, I guess you could call it, because he was a mid-season acquisition last year. But it’s not just these big three and you’re good. It’s not that. It’s not like that anymore. The big 2025. It’s 2025. Yeah. No, the big three era, I think, is dead and gone. I’ve uh I’ve I’ve felt that way for probably a couple years now. Like that’s just not how you win in the NBA anymore. Like it it like I I think I think dating back probably to the Bucks winning the finals where it was it was very much, you know, Giannis and Chris Middleton were like the two big the two big guys. I mean, you could throw Drew Holiday in there. It’s it’s funny because you know this I guess this you you you you gripe so much about like national media narrative Spence. This is probably one of my least favorite things is when like some team makes a trade and ESPN or whoever throws out this graphic that’s like a new big three in whatever city and it’s like what? Like they did it with the Bucks when they traded for Kyle Koosma. It was like the Bucks new big three and I was like Kyle Kosma is part of a big three. Is that that’s how we feel about Kyle Koosma now? And I know how you feel about K, which makes it even which makes it even funnier. Um, but yeah, like I like I just like it’s it’s like we always try to frame it in these narratives is like you need you need another superstar on this team or you need a big three to like I think that air is dead. So that air is dead. Um, yeah. I I like the Pacers are proof that you like depth. It’s the same thing with the Thunder. The Pacers and the Thunder are are proof that depth is more important especially this time of year. like somebody like N Smith, like he’s been playing brilliant and people just kind of like nine threes for I mean game one Tyrese gets all the love for game one but that’s the guy that kept you in the damn thing. Yeah. Like like having role players like that is so valuable man and like I I agree with you. So that’s where I think the Cavs can get better if they are to trade somebody out of this core for. We both agree Jared should be first up on that that menu I guess of of options. But I do think there’s been some interesting conversations had about uh about Darius Garland in this regard as well. I know you wanted to get into this a little bit too and the idea that if if um if if they were to make a deal for DG that there would be some or if they were to trade DG that there are some interesting landing spots out there that maybe make some sense. I think you hinted at this a little bit with a couple of the teams you mentioned, but what are the things that you’re sort of picking up on or that you’re hearing in terms of, hey, like this team and maybe some of the players that they have to offer would be a fit if DG was was something that the Cavs are willing to actually part ways with. Well, you would have to get back somebody who can set the table and playmake. I know that we’re getting Evan Mobley to that echelon to where he starts having the ball in his hands more, higher usage. Yeah. But I don’t know if they’re ready to trust him full time as a playmaker like a Jokic, right? Like can he be a BAM already in terms of like the dribble handoff stuff like he has he’d have a lot of responsibility? Shangon also does stuff like that. Plays from the the high post and face up game and try to set guys up with cuts which he’s good at. But can that be your primary offense? because Donovan Mitchell dominated the ball in the second round as we saw. If he had even 60% of Darius Garland in that second round, I think we’d having a totally different conversation because what Darius does is he alleviates pressure by handling the ball, by setting his teammates up, by getting into the paint with his array of dribble moves and side to side and his no look passes. is like he can manipulate a defense with his eyes. You don’t find many of those in the league anymore because the traditional point guard, again, going back to our theme of burying things, the traditional point guard is dead pretty much. How many are left that don’t score it and set and set up teammates? You need to have someone that can set the table for you. And that’s what Donovan kind of struggled with in those last couple of games or last three games because he was exhausted because the offense was driving into the paint, driving into the paint, uh occasionally kick out to a teammate and then drive to the paint again. So, uh, the offense again was the issue of that series. I think a healthy Darius Garland makes a huge difference in that series. Do they beat the Pacers? I don’t think so. I think we cannot do that whatif scenario after we’ve seen Indiana just dominate throughout the entire postseason. But I think it changes the calculus a little bit. So Darius’s skill set also goes beyond just the playmaking too. It’s the catch shoot piece of it. He is really good at shooting the ball and he’s good at getting to his spots as well. Kenny Einson had him shooting a lot more pull-ups this year and he’s solid at getting to his spots by just kind of maneuvering his way around you. Like I I don’t know. Um the other part of this too that that I don’t appreciate and especially when we have history of this happening is Darius is 25 years old. He just finished up his sixth season in the NBA. How is that telling of who a player is going to be? How do you know? Especially when the grade card is incomplete. I know that we coming on here to talk about trade and whatnot, but I just had my wheel spinning. It it it just to me, one, development never stops. Development doesn’t stop till you retire. You’re saying how do we know he’s How do you know that’s who Darius Garland is if he hasn’t had the chance to show it while healthy? He had one playoff series, one and a half playoff series maybe. Yeah. Like you talk about luck, you can’t make that conclusion. Yeah. You talk about luck, like he’s had the worst luck when it comes to like the postseason stuff. And and I get it. Like you, you know, Rob’s throwing up. You know, Darius is not a big time performer when the lights are bright. I don’t know what you’re watching, bro. He’s a liability on defense and inconsistent. I’m sorry. Listen, like I I I get it. I get that that’s going to be the criticism when you haven’t seen a guy enough at that stage do it. But I also think to your point, Spence, like you you can’t you can’t rule out the the the context here of last year the jaw injury really hindered him and then he had lost weight and he was just kind of constantly he’s constantly playing catch-up the entire time and then by the time the playoffs rolled around he wasn’t there and then this year the fluky toe injury that clearly limited his ability. like those things matter and so yeah like as we talk about luck like he’s had some of the worst luck when it comes to his health in the in the postseason specifically. So I agree with you like there is still more of that story to be written. I I I get why people are going to be critical and say he can’t do it on that stage. I think to your point it’s it’s kind of a TBD thing for me which is disappointing but I do think it’s a TBD for Darius. We still don’t know for sure because he’s never really had a chance to do it. He’s not injuryprone Rob. He is not injuryprone. He got hit in the face. He’s got poked in the eye. He had a toe injury that came up out of nowhere on a on a closeout. Freak accidents are a real thing. These are not soft tissue. Donovan had a freak accident at the end of the season with like two weeks to go. He fell on a guy’s foot and that’s what sort of hurt his quad going into the postseason. So now, if you want me to play devil’s advocate, maybe he’s too short and that’s why he had the eye injury or why he had the sorry, the jaw injury. The eye injury was because it got gouged by Gary Trent Jr. which he apologized for. Uh you had the the close out which you what can you control with that? I I just don’t know. Like you go out to contest somebody and you land funky on your foot. Like are we really going to get mad at him for that? I I don’t know what else you can do. If it’s something to where he’s being overused or there’s uh some sort of tendonitis or whatever like that, then sure, he’d be injuryprone. But he’s not injuryprone if he gets hit in the face. He’s not injuryprone. If he lands wrong on his foot, that’s not injuryprone. That’s literally bad luck. I know that he’s not got the strongest frame, and that’s something that he has to improve at. But I I actually, this is one of the talking points that I agree with, Kobe. Steph Curry bodywise, not skill-wise, not comparing games, don’t take it that direction, but body-wise, very similar. and he had issues with injuries earlier that were injury repo injury-prone type stuff and he ended up making it out fine and look at that guy now. So, I don’t know. Forgive me for wanting to be patient with one of the most dynamic and talented point guards in the NBA. I I I just don’t see why you would give up on that right now when he’s 25. Yeah, I think that’s well said. I also think too the notion that Darius can’t play in the playoffs because he’s he’s he can’t defend um I think gets overblown to an extent. Now listen if if your argument is like him and Donovan together are both a liability. I get that one. But every team like look around every team is not like all these all these really good teams. It’s not like perfectly five guys on the floor that are both great on offense and great on defense. Like that is I don’t know. Has there ever been a team Spence that’s been like has has just five two-way players on it like on every position? Like it that just doesn’t exist in the NBA really. And then the Pacers might be close to that, but like Pascal Seakin’s like right around league average for for his defensive rating. Uh Tyrese Hallebertton I think is worse than the league average for defensive rating. These guys aren’t necessarily like elite defenders either. They just play at a style that like wears guys out and that helps on the defensive end, but also like they they get the timely the timely stops and moments. And again, going back to the Darius factor of this like you have you didn’t get a chance to see him and how effective he could or couldn’t be on defense because he was injured. So I I I think that all comes into play real quick before we wrap up off of this Darius conversation. Do you think that Donovan would be better suited to just be an offball shooting guard and not handle the ball and let Darius or if they were to trade for another person that handled the ball, be the primary guy handling the ball? Because we know Donovan is great when he handles the ball and we know that he’s, you know, mixed and matched in that way with him and Darius both kind of being the the main ball handlers. But if if they took that away from him a little bit and maybe gave it to Evan Mobley even and he took more he had more opportunities to bring the ball up the floor. Do you think that is something that would suit Donovan’s game? Is that a fit for him or does he need to have the ball in his hands more you think as the the primary guy? I’m going to go back to the word that you use balance. You can’t just make him an offball guy. Okay. But it’s something like what we just saw in the regular season and what we saw in round one against Miami. You’re not completely off the ball, but you can take possessions off and you can trust Evan Mobley to bring it up. You can trust Darius Garland to bring it up. Ty Jerome, whoever one of these point guards or guards bringing the ball up. Shoot, Max Struce in some possessions when he was using the pick and roll with with Jared Allen was handling the ball. So, you just can’t bring it up 50% of the time. That was his usage rate in that game two against the Pacers. It was above 50%. It was out of this world. Unreal. I don’t think it even happened with LeBron when he was on the Cavs. That was too much too much of a workload on Donovan Mitchell in that point. So, you obviously can’t have that, but you don’t want to completely take it out of his hands because he’s extremely effective when he drives the lane. You want to get him the ball with momentum. If he wants to break someone down in an ISO situation, go ahead. ISO is going to happen in the NBA. You can’t just have Harlem Globe Trotter ball throughout 48 minutes. It’s not going to happen. Sorry, go to your local YMCA. I’m sure that you can see some of that, too. But it’s it’s not going to happen every single time. But yes, you do want him off the ball in certain situations. You want Darius off the ball in certain situations because that means Evan has the ball in his hands. You want Max Streus curling around. You want whoever’s on your team that can play off ball with somebody else facilitating and figuring out the offense, especially in the half court because the half court’s where things slow down and you got to be able to figure it out. And that’s where I thought the Cavs had it figured out because they had every style in the book they were good at. They were good in transition. They were good at slowing it down. They were good in that middle pace area in the playoffs. Clearly when the injuries came, but also Donovan Mitchell was just way way way too ball dominant. That was where their downfall came and the rhythm was kind of gone. And if you go back and you watch Donovan Mitchell’s press conference, someone asked him about that, did you put too much on your shoulders in that series? And I just tweeted out a video of it yesterday. His quote was like, “There’s reasons. I’m not going to just abandon what I’m what we’re doing.” So, I found that really interesting because that leads me to believe I missed that real time. Yeah. That leads me to believe that Evan was more hurt than he was. That leads me to believe that Darius Garland, already knowing how hurt he was, was even worse with that foot injury. So, that tells me that Donovan is self-aware. I’ve got all the respect in knowing his knowledge of the game and what he’s capable of and he’ll admit his faults, but if he didn’t admit fault there, then that tells me that those guys really were hurt. So, that’s also part of this. I think this is a great comment from Rob to end on. We better sign Jerome back or we’ll be doomed. I think the notion that that Ty Jerome that the team was better with Ty Jerome than than Darius got put to bed in that that Pacer series because Ty Jerome was looked at as needing to to step up and be a starter in those moments and he sort of laid an egg for most of that series until the last game. And that’s no disrespect to Ty Jerome. I think he’s a fine player. If they brought him back, I think it’d be worth it. Again, we talked about depth. He’s a great piece to have in terms of depth, but uh the team the team lost in five games with Darius Garland not out there and hurt and they, you know, had Ty Jerome filling in and I think we sort of saw the evidence that like no, they’re probably not a better team with just Ty Jerome and no Darius, but just saying. I also uh was going to throw this one up there because Beast Girl says a Midwest and Southwest NBA Finals potentially on tap here. Beautiful thing. Spence and I said we’re we’re for it and I think that’s actually a good topic to get into on the next episode. We I hope we can get uh Yosi at some point because I do want to talk through some some cap stuff with him and the second apron and what this all looks like for the Cavs. So, we have that planned for an episode here coming down the pike, but I do once this finals is potentially set. We don’t know what’s going to happen between the Pacers and the Knicks tonight. Uh, I want to talk about it cuz I I have some thoughts on all these people who griped for years that the NBA has no parody and now that they have parody, they’re mad that the the New Yorks and the Bostons and the Laker and the and the the the Los Angeleses of the world aren’t actually in the NBA finals. So, uh, we’ll have that for you coming up next week on another episode of Courtet with the Cavs on SI. In the meantime, I implore you to head on over to Cavaliers on SI, the website, si.com/mbba/cavaliers. Check out any of our written content. We’ll post this podcast episode up there as well. And of course, stay locked in at the YouTube channel right here with the the Cavaliers on SI. All those press conferences that Spencer alluded to, it’s always good to go back and listen to them because sometimes you hear things that you might have missed at the in the moment. as as um Spence mentioned, as I and as I said, I I kind of caught on to a couple things as well. So, check those out. Check out other episodes of the podcast. Our last episode did pretty well in terms of people engaging because they were upset about some of our trade ideas that we threw out there. But, we appreciate you as always. Thanks for following along. Keep on following along with Courtside with the Cavs on SI and of course the Cleveland Cavaliers on SI.

There’s no denying the Cleveland Cavaliers’ early playoff departure stung, but has the Indiana Pacers’ dominance in the Eastern Conference Finals helped soften the blow? How much were the Pacers underestimated coming into the NBA Playoffs?

Meanwhile, the East’s shifting landscape may help Koby Altman’s case for standing pat this offseason. Changes may still be necessary, but this postseason has proven that luck is also key to a deep run.

Also, plenty of Darius Garland and Jarrett Allen trade scenarios are floating about on social media. Do any of them make sense? Should Cleveland give up on DG this early in his development?

Spencer German and Spencer Davies discuss all that and more on the latest episode of Courtside with Cavs on SI.
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