Orlando Gets Desmond Bane, Memphis in Limbo + KD Trades w/ Ryen Russillo | The Bill Simmons Podcast
all [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] right happy Father’s Day taping this a little after 10:00 PT we thought we might be talking about a Kevin Durant trade instead we got a bombshell rillo we got a Memphis and Orlando trade where Orlando gets Desmond Bane and they give up four firstrounders and a swap and Cole Anthony and uh Contavius Caldwell Pope and I want to talk about the Orlando stuff in a second the Memphis piece really jumped out to me because you’re basically getting three first from a team that’s going to be really good over the next five years you’re getting a swap but then you’re getting this 2026 best of a Phoenix Washington Orlando swap thing that is the be the the prize asset and yet when you have Jiren Jackson and John and Desmond Bane and you trade Bane and Jiren Jackson has a year left on his deal and John Morant has been I wouldn’t say stable over the last three years and you’re in the West with a team OKC that looks like they’re going to dominate the rest of the decade with the Spurs um with Dallas with Cooper Flag you go on down the line this feels like a possible white flag for me from Memphis and maybe not the last trade what was it what was your thought on the Memphis side no I want to stay there though white flag like that’s saying something when you start like clearly we had it with Golden State where when it was just stacked up and I remember talking to other teams and like Daryl it was like hey at least Daryl’s going for it like so many of these other teams in the West go what’s the point that might be the best starting five we’ve ever seen in the history of this game and Daryl’s like “All right well and I remember we had him on and he was saying something like I don’t know if we had it wasn’t I don’t know.” The quote came out Vegas FanDuel thing we were talking about him chasing Golden State yeah we did it then but like in the moment as it was like we had already been through a year of it because I thought the Vegas thing was after that um because it was right before yeah it was just that Daryl had figured out the math of like we have you know 41% chance of playing the Houston Rockets and or the Houston Rockets are going to play Golden State that was my Daryl impersonation sorry you you know sold that a little bit um so I know method acting like wait he’s taking night courses at MIT uh what do you like do you think that I mean do you really think that though because that’s a pretty bold statement about a team with a job with a Jiren Jackson in a city where it’s like you kind of have to feel like you’re all in all the time like you think they look around and go “Okay Dallas gets Cooper WBY’s coming and all these other things.” And of course you have OKC two games away from this whole thing which I know we’ll spend a lot of time on that’s just a massive statement for front office and ownership to get on the stage page and be like “Let’s white flag this conference for the next few years.” I don’t know any other way to take it because like I looked at my rigger 100 list and Desmond Bane I had him at you know in like the high30s somewhere in there wherever whatever list you’re having he’s one of the best 35 to 43 players in the league in a 30 team league right and you’re whatever the Memphis is trying to do to win a title you would think it would be built around those three guys now they’re saying we only need two of them one of them we can’t rely on the other one has a big contract coming up so either they didn’t want to pay all three or this is stage one of a massive blow up let’s try to emulate what Prey did you know with the Paul George Russell Westbrook that whole four-year era um which would mean the second part would be a Jiren Jackson trade i have I looked at everything i had a really good time this morning what a Father’s Day for me uh it was the perfect gift to just go in the trade machine and spot track for two hours um I I think it’s a lot harder to move Jaw than it is Jiren Jackson because the Jiren Jackson the fact that he only makes 23 million bucks makes him tradable to every team in the league not that every team would need him or want him but it’s just a completely different type of trade like you’re talking about the Lakers not that you know but they could literally get him for Reeves and Ruie and all their picks like it’s stuff like that that can’t really happen when you’re talking about a guy making $45$50 million a year um you’re a bigger I think you’re a slightly bigger fan of Jiren Jackson than I am yeah and I understand the problems you brought it up the rebounding the stupid fouls that constantly happen that makes him a cat’s foul decision seem smart and sure I mean you could get into even different playoff moments of like is he a coin toss kind of guy but I mean you’re talking about how much easier he is to trade my argument would be they don’t want to trade like you would want to stay in the Jiren Jackson business and you know as much time as we spend of trying to predict how teams will sort of manage some of this stuff with the second apron you know we’ve been on here for a while do you look at Bane’s deal with what’s left on it I mean it was a pretty big deal 5 years 197 million although I think Bane at 37 39 42 45 and he’d be 45 million in the 31 year old season as opposed to like some of these other deals where you’re like that guy’s going to be making what at 35 5 36 um with with everything in the cap being at like 195 for this year I still think that’s a fairly reasonable contract for a player that I know we both like a lot i love him i love the basketball fit for Orlando but it it might just be like if we’re all in on on Jiren and Jaw then where am I going if that’s my answer like well no this is a commitment to Jiren and J it’s like cool you’re you have no chance of being one of the five best teams in the West for the next three years if that’s your those your two guys the main thing is it’s not just getting off a contract it’s not just the assets it’s that this is a directional shift for the franchise i do i really do and I’m not saying you’re wrong i guess Well there’s two ways to perceive it either they felt like they couldn’t pay Bane Jiren Jackson and John Moreno all at the same time which as we know with this hard cap which Zach has officially named it a hard cap and I think I agree with them this hard cap you’re paying three guys 40 plus million orlando’s going to find that out when Paulo’s uh when his extension comes in all I saw like for the 26 27 season you’re all a sudden looking at like a $350 million payroll with the tax it’s just really hard to pay four guys much less three um I just feels to me like there like this is a full reboot like we gave it a whirl um maybe we should just be a bad team and let J just go nuts for a couple years everyone wear his jersey and we’ll just be one of the three worst teams in the West and by the way I support it i like especially after going to those two finals games in Indie and watching the athleticism and the depth and the youth and you just start thinking about how many teams could play at this level um that’s why I love the trade for Orlando because Bane is somebody that could have played in the two games I just went to right that’s that’s somebody who easily played 35 to 40 minutes on either team in those games yeah if he’s the 35th best player in the league which I think he’s probably in that 30 something to I you know I don’t know i don’t know if I had him 43 to mess with your cut off there yeah somewhere somewhere in that range there are some incredible numbers for him and and who he’s been i mean the minute he came into the league he’s just makes threes and there was one number I was looking at today he’s 43% on catch and shoot threes uh in all five so since he’s come to the league in five seasons on 43% shooting on catch and threes that’s third best of any player in the NBA pairing that with Orlando’s greatest need which had the worst three-point shooting percentage season since we’ve seen in the league since the 2015 16 Lakers you’re saying it was a need yeah i mean this is you know whatever you think of Orlando cuz Pal is starting to take some hits if you don’t like him he’s an inefficient hog who makes bad decisions i like him i think he’s a guy whose inefficiency speaks more to the role that he’s tasked with of solving a team that can’t shoot around him he’s 21 there’s that part too yeah but I don’t I don’t look at him as some of the other on ball guys that are really dynamic where it’s like well you just still haven’t figured out a lot of the game like I’ve seen enough from him from college and in these years in the pros where I’m like I actually think he is a willing teammate it’s just his teammates are unwilling to make any threes the Pope signing was a [ __ ] disaster i mean that guy was invisible that’s why one of these picks I think goes to making Memphis take Po take Calwell Pope right so it’s like it’s like basically four picks for Bane and then an extra pick to please take Pope with you with him in the trade I think yeah i mean the picks are 16 the Phoenix first and 26 which you know who knows what Phoenix is going to look like day by day here the unprotected 28 and 30 i mean it’s just so funny when we start looking at these picks like you’re going to be sitting here in five years being like “Oh that’s that 30 that’s the unprotected from who was in that deal be like remember Pope?” Well that’s my favorite with the Derek White trade i there so there’s one other piece of this trade that I think really hurts Memphis and really hurts or and really helps Orlando is Bane’s just a tough [ __ ] man um and when you think about like the way Prey put together that OKC team and watching them in person for a couple games where none of them talk Caruso is the only guy on the bench that talks everybody else is just like silent assassin competitive guy and it’s like clearly a prototype they’re looking for athletic silent assassin do your job keep your head down work really hard uh Banefits with with Suggs and Paulo and Fron that’s a forsome that makes sense to me from an intensity chippiness uh little aggro bane gets a little aggro from time to time like you think about him in in like round two of whatever series next year and that’s a team that’s almost like the Florida Panthers like what we’re watching you know they add Marshand to all these other guys they have who are just agitators and just this physical agitator team and Marshian’s just like perfect for that and Bane just seems like perfect for them i love the trade i also thought there was more playmaking from him last year than I thought he had in him like I his assist last season he was over five when you’re over five assists a game that’s not nothing you know true uh the true shooting percentage is around 600 for his career you look at the regular season part of this he’s 41% from three in the regular season he’s played 27 playoff games the playoffs 3% shooting is at 40% um you know I I love him because I like him as a player in a vacuum i like him for Orlando a lot because this team desperately needs some kind of spacing to make it easier on Paulo to make it easier when you’re swinging to the other side for Fron uh Suggs clearly is so important to this team because they fell off a cliff i do not understand some of the stuff that they do offensively i’ll never forget that regular season game where I think it was Tai Jerome and Sam Merrill shout out to Sam Merrill but they were at the front they were at the top of a zone that Cleveland was running and Orlando with all of their size still couldn’t figure out a way to do anything they’re just not very creative offensively so I don’t know if that’s lack of point guard or Paulo not being along can help that a little bit though because I do feel like he can initiate some offense run some pick and roll i I I really like the fit yeah cuz the catch and shoot guys usually that are this good it’s kind of like you catch you shoot muscle memory and then that’s pretty much it and he’s able to provide that with somebody that can put the ball on the ground and can probably swing it and make some decisions you know back to this kind of thunder ideal of of the ideal thunder player is the way I should say it of that once the ball’s in your hands we trust you with every decision you’re going to make after that and Bane definitely fits that now if you want to say you know I just always get annoyed when it’s like oh he only has one year left it’s like what’s he worth and then it’s like oh that contract it’s like well what do you want do you want somebody under contract or do you want the flexibility of him not being under contract because I think the headline part of it is it’s four and a swap for Desmond Bane but it’s about people to watch basketball i mean come on i would do this in a heartbeat it’s three non picks it’s the number 16th pick this year and the Phoenix pick which is a prize yeah the Phoenix pick which if Phoenix does all right on this trade and you like Paulo the most this is a bet on Paulo like this is like we have Paulo we’re going to be in the mix every year because this guy’s going to be one of the best 15 guys in the league so I think that’s when that’s when I don’t really care about the picks like if the Celtics had done this with Tatum in the early 2020s I would have been like I don’t mind it like I we have Tatum we’re going to be in the mix you And I I think Paulo is at least an in the mix guy now especially in a in a crippled East yeah I know it’s just 5 years out that’s all i mean you never know what’s going to happen we sit here all the time being like “Oh this team or this guy and all these things or like even sitting here pretending like the Thunder like no one’s going to challenge him for five years.” Uh depending on how the rest of this week goes here so it I’ I sense that there’s some resistance to like people made fun of the Bridges deal because of all the picks it’s like Bridges hasn’t even made an all-star team um but the Knicks probably felt like at that point we know we can’t pay Hardstein so we’re going to lose him and so can we reinvent this thing with another wing go all in on the picks and just go all in now because we actually like with Mitchell Robinson the other four so who’s who’s the fifth guy or with Hart that we like the five guys who’s the sixth guy so Bane fits such a desperate need for this team that it’s probably worth the extra pick you know if it had been just the 28 unprotected and not the 30 unprotected does that sound a little bit better but I don’t know who they’re bidding against i don’t know what the rest of it is and he’s a really good player he’s a really good player for a team that desperately needed to figure something else out because KCP even though he’s making it’s not half but he’s 22 million the next two years he just was such a massive disappointment which by the way should be another one of those deals where if you’re a team thinking about trading for anybody that’s not Jokic with Denver I might just if I were running a team I go even if I like this guy I don’t think I’m going to trade for anybody post Jokic because you have no idea what their actual talent is playing with Jokic that’s I like that theory so Michael Porter buyer beware um yeah I mean Aaron Gordon’s a perfect example of the other side of this which Orlando fans had to hear this [ __ ] it’s I can’t believe they traded this guy like dude what did you think the market was for him right and now he’s playing next to Joic in this awesome baseline role and now he’s become a better shooter so I mean this is a different conversation but I I think the the Senate summary is we’re aligned on this he fits such a just awful need for this team that I’m okay with the price even if it feels a little bit like man you’re throwing a lot in there yeah and who like who are the other type of people if they’re going to make a trade like this that you would want to go after it’s basically Jaylen Brown maybe Anobi right knicks aren’t trading with Orlando i don’t think the Celtics are trading with Orlando either so if you start thinking about kind of guard big guard who could also maybe guard some some small forwards like perimeter guys with size who hit threes who can play defense who are tough this is probably the number one draft pick i had two bigger reactions other than that Memphis one um this to me is a blood in the water trade for the Eastern Conference and this is why I don’t think M Milwaukee is going to trade Giannis either i think everybody who’s in the Eastern Conference has to look around and go we might be able to make the finals next year like Tatum’s going to be out look at what Indiana Indiana was 10 and 15 after 25 games i know there are real reasons for that but um and they’re they’ve won 14 playoff games who knows with the Knicks the Knicks seem like they’re a mess right now um the Knicks are going to be good i mean this whole coaching thing is funny to make fun of them but they’re going to be good i know but I’m just saying if you go down the line of who are these slam dunks like Cleveland we still don’t look like nobody’s afraid of any of them even Indiana and as good as Indiana’s been I don’t think anybody’s going Whoa like you would with OKC and I think I think that’s why Milwaukee keeps Giannis at least until the December January February range if they’re if they’re horrible and it looks bad maybe they look differently at it but um but I think with this Orlando has to be looking at this going we might make the finals next year with this team especially if we can get one smart free agent signing um you know who knows who knows um we have Paulo what if he makes a leap what if there’s like an Ian Edwards going from here to here kind of jump or Hallebert and going from here to here so that was that was one thing and then the other one um it just confirmed to me that I don’t think Milwaukee is going to trade Giannis i just think if you’re them could you could you talk yourself into can can Giannis do a 2018 LeBron and just win three rounds by himself you know maybe you scared anyone in the East i’m not so that’s it so Orlando through that who which roster would you rather have right now Orlando or New York orlando when we did when we did the next five years thing with the Pacers before I think everybody kind of fell in love with this Pacers team and I think that’s despite the loss which I know we’ll get to just I know you were in the building and after game three you’re like damn this team is just you know this team is they really are something else yeah right and I was like would I still take this roster over Cleveland’s roster i’m battling with it but when we did that exercise I thought it was worth bringing up Orlando before the Bane part of this so yeah it’s going to be expensive with Fron with Suggs with Paulo and Bane um which in a different way that that’s uh you know the Pacers kind of hit this right with the timing of a lot of these contracts too because if you were going to start resigning these guys and keep it longer term then clearly the salary would be a lot more but yeah I think you’re right and by the way like as bad as it can be in Milwaukee it can’t be that bad because of how special Giannis is so the other thing Memphis did you see that sneaky Edy injury that they announced a couple days ago where he’s out for like five to six months maybe they’re like they’re going to re-evaluate in four so they might not have him for the whole year brandon Clark’s coming back from a knee injury but I I think he’s going to be fine for the season they have no idea with job and then the Jiren Jackson piece I you know I put it this way if they decide to auction him out like I was thinking Utah is Utah pwning him up the fifth pick and Collins and more first to be in that conversation i would assume Houston a lot of the same Durant stuff with more picks detroit if it’s Tobias and Ron Holland and like all their first and swaps and they just go all in on trying to add him brooklyn Claxton here’s we have a shitload of picks how many do you want the Spurs could they could they figure out how to get him without giving up the second pick and then I I hate mentioning them but man if if the Lakers put Reeves and Ruie in their 31st and some swaps and a 32nd first like I think it’s a conversation i really like Reeves you know so I that’s one of the teams I was looking at but I mean clearly on the asset part of this it’s about the picks it’s not about Pope’s contract and Cole Anthony who we should probably mention at this point because it’s been this far in the discussion of it uh Cole’s Cole’s like a really nice off the-bench guy you probably don’t want to be in your starting point guard obviously but Cole Memphis ties too for him what’s that he’s some Memphis ties right because I remember Verno loved him was it just Verno um no in the draft he there was something with him in Memphis i can’t remember like his maybe we need to do we need to get it on this i don’t know we we can we could talk I could look at it during the break verno was like the biggest Coanthony fan um so what would you do with Jiren Jackson i like the Utah part of it because you know the whole Bane conversation is you’re sitting there going like all right but don’t we want to wait for like somebody who’s just a little bit better if we’re going to go all in with all of these picks it’s like a lot of times you’re just sitting there waiting around and you go “All right cool you waited and then no one else became that available.” uh you know it’s is is it like the Bridges conversation where you know well sure it’d be nice to have all these picks for like a top 10 guy but waiting around for this top 10 imaginary scenario where we outbid everybody else and the guy definitely wants to come here and state like that’s a really it’s probably it’s likely a stupid plan because the idea that it’s going to just follow through the way you had planned it out for this one specific guy and the certainty or it’s just chances are stacked against you that that’s going to happen so if you’re a Utah and you go “Okay we need something that’s heading in the right direction.” You know if if the draft goes the wrong way and Canipple’s gone and VJ’s gone i love it i love that you did the is Canipple gone at five because I feel the same way i think Utah would be devastated if Canipple was gone unless they want fears and they go “This is great we wanted fears the whole time.” But that’s another guard another really young guard because he cl reclassified like Cooper did and you can say whatever you want in the press conferences like there’s a lot of teams going “We are not rebuilding anymore we are going for it.” You’re like “You guys won 32.” I’m not even talking about Utah but like I’ve heard it a lot i mean it felt like the Pistons were saying that year after year after year and look then it finally happened and we all like where this Pistons team is right now so you wonder if there are teams that have been bad now for a while that would look at Jiren Jackson the same way Orlando looks at Bane and I like Jackson better than Bane but if they would look at him and go you could do a lot worse than going all in on somebody this young that’s this talented i think showed you like the full repertoire of his scoring possibilities it’d be nice if he was probably with a more athletic five um can I get like seven rebounds a game from him yeah I know i know you’re probably not going to so I yeah I but I don’t know if this means Memphis is tearing the whole thing down and that would just lead to like what’s the Jaw market or is is Jaw the best because I used to joke that like if I were Jaw market you’re you’re looking at like Brooklyn Washington teams like that part of the problem with trading a franchise point guard is that 22 of these teams have a franchise point guard or a point guard they love you know you go on if you go on trade machine and just be like oh J that’ll be easy and then you go throw for every team and it’s not nearly as easy as you think um even if you talk about like oh maybe the Clippers would take them okay well who are they giving back and why is Memphis trading Jaw for like James Harden and Zubats like not happening um I do think Brooklyn’s the most interesting summer team just because I have no idea what they’re up to they have all these picks they’re going to have potentially 100 million in cap space i don’t know if they want to be good right away maybe they want to tank one more year maybe they want to be the way station for other teams crappy contracts and do what Prey did but it also feels like there’s a way for them to just supercharge it and be like “We’ll take Jaw you’re souring on him you’re rebuilding okay we’ll put him in we’ll put him in Barclays we’ll get people excited about him.” Um there was another thing so Conspiracy Bill not quite it’s like his brother just kind of I’m mildly intrigued his cousin i’m mildly intrigued bill yeah wayne so that Phoenix pick being in the trade did make me wonder cuz they they like we’re going to talk about Durant later i like this and the Durant trade would be Jaylen Green i assume Jaylen Green Jabari maybe Cam Whitmore they give Phoenix back their 27 pick and it’s something like that right but then what does Phoenix do with Jaylen Green and Devin Booker could that then lead to they trade Jaylen Green to Memphis and get their other pick back and then it’s basically they have Booker Jabari Smith and all their picks back was just just a m Wayne my cousin Wayne just was mildly intrigued by it or that’s not what I thought you were going to do what’ you think I was going to do a booker to Memphis did Orlando do the trade because they have a good feel on what Phoenix is going to get for Durant and they go “Well look Phoenix is still going to be competitive like to a playing a playing game level where they’re I don’t see it you think they’re going to be one of the five worst teams in the NBA?” The West no I think they’re going to be one of the five worst teams in the West they’re going to trade Durant record can we both agree that if they get if Jaylen Green is the centerpiece of a Durant trade and it’s Jaylen Green and Devin Booker together that’s not a playoff team because I’m willing to sign that in ink right now you’re not making the playoffs those are your two best guys i do not like that mix that mix at all we would agree but I’m I’m wondering if they have they feel good about their intel if they have an understanding that Phoenix however they’re going to try to put the pieces together for 2526 if they’re including that pick does that mean they feel like all right well Phoenix will have you know a 6% chance at the number one pick you know they’re not going to be completely bottom and Booker’s probably too good and you probably feel like you owe it to him to be competitive i mean I guess we could pretend that Beiel’s on the team well you’re like in that Atlanta situation where it makes no sense to bottom out so you’re basically grinding your way to 39 and 43 or whatever it is that’s what I’m talking about yeah now I don’t know if there was another version of where Phoenix goes “Now we’re just going to tear the studs down around Booker.” Because you would just think as much as Booker seems to love it there and you know says all the right things and you know I I think it’s a lot easier to say those things and say that you’re on the same page until you’re actually like living in it again and I don’t know how happy he would have been long term with Sarver and all the stuff that was happening until Chris Paul comes in and saves the day and then they’re competitive they’re playing an NBA championship so now it like that window of three or four years of being competitive maybe it revives you a little bit but then if you’re going back into it but you know I could do a weekend I could do a marathon podcast on trying to figure out what we actually think the best and worst assets are of all the Durant rumors that we’ve heard because you’re right if the headline is you got you got Jaylen Green you’re like you can’t do better than that but then you’ll hear something that’s like Sohan’s untouchable you’re like Sohan we like Sohan untouchable yeah he’s he would not be untouchable for me jiren Jackson i was trying to figure out what his trade value would be knowing that you’re going to have to pay him in a year would you rather have the second pick or Jiren Jackson if you’re San Antonio yeah I think that’s a tough one right i think I would rather have the second pick because I think both of us think Harper man I I did an all day rookie deep dive yesterday in the top eight yeah I was getting the text i didn’t even know what to do you were so excited i couldn’t keep up with him yeah it was it was an all day um it would probably be the unknown of hoping like what Harper is now projecting like okay if this guy really figures it out and how seamless it feels like his college game in just one year as a freshman just all the stuff that you see with him you’re like “Okay well that’s an NBA thing that’s an NBA thing.” And the price control all that stuff you probably would rather have the number two pick with Harper but it’s not as if it’s it’s not like I would personally rather have number two pick if I if I’m San Antonio I just want Winyama and Harper and all the rest of the guys i’ll figure it out later fox you name it i I just know like give me these two i’m going to build my team around these two even Castle who I really like i would be like WBY Harper maybe Castle and I would just be watching this OKC Indiana series on a loop going what kind of team do we need to put in a game like this athletically from a playmaking standpoint from a shooting standpoint what does our team have to look like uh I would rather have the number two pick but yeah that’s the thing if if if they just go “Hey we’re going to resign Jiren Jackson we have all these picks maybe we’ll make a move maybe not and we’re going to build around John Morant a guy that everybody in Memphis loves and one of the 30 best guys in the league in Jiren Jackson that’s our team i don’t I don’t think people would be upset about that but I don’t think they’re making round two of the playoffs anytime soon do you that in the West come on no I don’t think so uh I I would think there’s a lot of teams that really like Jiren Jackson but a lot of the value of all of these picks especially when we’re talking about lottery picks it’s okay you know but if I hit it right you know the value of the unknown the value of talking yourself into like the biggest ceiling ever for a player because you haven’t seen anything yet on an NBA court that tells you that somebody can’t do it so right the unknown always feels like it’s more valuable than the known which is probably a mistake in a lot of these transactions because I love Jiren Jackson you know I I really do i if it were just in a vacuum like who would get more calls if you said “Hey Jiren Jackson or Bane’s available?” Jackson’s getting more calls right you’re not saying Wow wow the one year left on the deal makes me nervous i I love that Bane is just here’s his contract let’s say this let’s say this cuz all right fine but this kind of gets back to the whole like that’s a lot of money or oh he could leave in a year what if Jiren Jackson is telling you like the Seakum transaction with the Pacers it’s like I’m in I’m going to I’ll I’ll resign with you so if you know you can get Jiren Jackson ressigned versus like you’re going to resign me but I expect something in the high 40s low 50s and I’ll be like so 50 million a year so that’s 10 million per rebound a game that’s what that’s what we’re pricing out is it nine million per rebound a game i don’t know i just don’t think he’s a $50 million player i don’t now that doesn’t mean he’s not going to get it from somebody but um I just think with this hard cap now if you’re paying him $50 million it’s going to be really hard to put a winning team around that um let’s let’s take a break because there’s a lot more to discuss including the KD ramifications of this trade all right Russell I looked at FanDuel they have the odds for the year 2026 NBA champion okc is plus 220 cleveland is plus 850 second best odds the Knicks are plus 950 third best odds the Pacers are 12 to1 celtics are 14 to1 i’ll book that bet uh Orlando is 16 to1 denver the Celtics to be NBA champs next year no I would book if somebody was gonna bet that i’ll I’ll book that action you’ll take it yeah I’ll take that my bad my bad um Orlando 16 to1 with the with the one two three four six best odds in the conference seems kind of excessive i would I would have them I’d probably have them second behind uh Indiana right or would you have Cleveland over them they’re in the top three cleveland’s still too talented for Vegas to just completely write them off so especially after 64 wins yeah you’re right anyway 16-1 for them um I’m trying to think for them to actually win some rounds next year anthony Black would have to go to two other levels i assume he’s the fifth guy especially because now they’ve traded Cole i don’t unless there’s some free agent I’m not thinking of or maybe it’s like they get like a Luke Canar type or something but they’re still going to need that fifth guy out there in these crunch times with those four and I guess it’s going to have to be Anthony Black what you What did you see from him last year what did you like and not like i I liked him i I think there’s probably moments as a rookie where I was like “Oh this guy’s going to be pretty good.” And then there wasn’t enough progress from year one to year two with him but I still like him i like his playmaking i like his unselfishness but I mean the key for him is know you like the whole remember like two years ago we’re sitting there with Jonathan Isaac and we’re like this guy’s awesome is this Bill Russell in the time machine and you are like oh this team can’t play another nonshooter like this is a complete disaster um and that’s kind of the problem with Black at least for the second year in their regression i mean he was under 40% from three grant was only taking one and a half a game you know that’s a bit like some of these bigs it’s like that guy’s a 40% shooter from three it’s like yeah he takes like one a game so it’s not really a thing even though the number is nice and he was 32% from three this year taking two and a half a game so the minutes jumped up you know he didn’t start a lot of games he play I still think there was enough there i just feel like maybe in that rookie year I was more excited about him and then I expected a little bit more this year and it’s not just about the shooting i think he’s a smart player i think he’s competitive probably still needs to fill out a little bit more but he’s not playing he’s not closing you think he’s closing with Paulo Bane there’s probably a veteran there’s a Derek Fischer early 2010 type it’s but it’s it’s the four and then whoever the center is and Wendell is underwhelming i think it’s safe to say well so you think it’s the four guys you think it’s the four guys with a center and they don’t even play a point guard well what do you what do you think it is fron and Powell are playing sucks is playing bane is playing so then it’s who’s the center do you seriously think they’d run that i I would want somebody that I know in certain situations could play crunch time if I wanted to go small with Paulo and France basically as my quote unquote bigs i would I would want the flexibility to do either depending on who I’m playing because like what if I’m playing Indiana in game six and they just go small and put in at the five and they have three guards and I basically have no guards out there i’m in trouble you know Mo minutes I I mean Batazi’s been a nice little story remember they like spent their money last year too on Pat and then doing I thought I thought he was thought he was a little reckless in the Boston series i’m still mad about it some elbows flying around well the other part of the odds for Orlando is people are probably thinking like even with Bane it’d be nice to see him win a series right for Yeah and they’re really young so you know it’s not like they had all these massive expectations but I’m going to just say a couple teams for John Morant and you tell me when to stop okay so these are teams Memphis is calling and they’re dangling John Mar and the other team is not saying no thanks they’re saying really can we’re going to talk amongst ourselves we’ll call you back all right and and I’m not gonna say every team in the league and I’m not gonna say teams that can’t trade for him atlanta is Trey gone i think Trey has to be in the trade right what What are you doing if you’re playing Trey and Jaw next to each other no I think Trey has to be in the trade going to Memphis right but I I just wanted to be sure like what you Trey and J together would be an attempt to just completely ruin your brain during lectante thing was test driving Jaw and Trey right uh so John seems like a good fit though just in general how about Chicago i’m not totally against the You know what though you can’t because Trey is a more stable guy that you can also count on who plays you’re still thinking about the Atlanta trade yeah cuz I mean that one just I mean I was a little frazzled here when I I was so ready for you to say something positive about the Celtics i completely misinterpreted a very normal phrase of like I’ll book your bets but I just expected I was like wait you’re still it was like breaking news to me here in June of 25 i was like did Bill talk himself back into believing that they’re a sneaky ease contender and the answer is emphatic no and I’m so pre like conditioned to think that you were going to actually I got so excited i was like he actually thinks they’re going to win the East next year that I should have totally understood based on the phrasing was like “No you want people to make that bet.” All right so back to Atlanta because I can’t get over this one yet let me throw it back even if you think like Peak Jaw is better than Trey even if you don’t like Trey his stability you you would never do this even if you thought like okay but Jaw there’s like a little bit more of a I’m not even sure if there is that much more of a ceiling but like does Jaw feel like a bigger star which is kind of a dumb conversation anyway a higher ceiling because he’s um I think if his head’s on right he’s a better player and he also means more to Memphis which is the other reason why it’s tough to I mean as Verno has talked about many times everyone in Memphis owns a Jaw jersey so if you’re trading him as stupid as this sounds this does have Luca getting traded from Dallas kind of vibes where people are like “You traded J?” He’s everyone loves Jaw so if you’re going to do it you have to get a good trade back i think take out the fan base part of it too cuz that’s like the superstar conversation that’s a little different because it’s like Jaw at one point felt like he was tracking towards being one of the faces of the league i know that might not be done yet he’s only He’s only in his mid20s he’s still as a basketball player i I just I’m over his very predictable appro predictable approach to all this stuff i think he’s gonna get hurt all the time um and I think he’s delusional i think he’s a very delusional guy i would I would personally uh Chicago so I guess that would be like Kobe White i’m not done yet not done yet you’re still in Atlanta who would you just rather have like not Trey’s appeal in Atlanta not John’s appeal i would rather have Trey at least I know what I’m getting chicago I guess would be like a Kobe White some picks i I don’t know how that makes sense is your Is your pitch on this that you’re kind of if things go the right way you’re kind of getting a star a very discounted star my pitch on this is a Jaw trade is a lot harder than people think if people are like “Miff’s going to blow it up they’re going to trade Jiren.” Like we’re going through the teams now um Miami so I think Hero would have to be in that trade plus picks to get Memphis to do it i don’t know is is Miami rolling the dice with John Mar i think they’ll roll the dice on somebody that feels like a real Okay so so we finally have a guy yeah I think Miami makes sense miami first team toronto keep hearing Messiah it’s ready to do stuff it’s going to be aggressive don’t count them out don’t trade for Durant for a year they don’t even He did it with Kawawaii yeah he did it with Kawhi when he had like a 57 win team he did it with Kawaii uh he didn’t give up a lot for Kawhai you gone back and looked at that deal i mean you probably remember it d Roz right it was a top 20 protected pick that was Kell Johnson at 29 yeah you do that trade every time for one year and they also won the title ever i’m going to rule out Toronto brooklyn I’m not You’re ruling out Toronto for Jaw i just don’t think they have anything to give up they’re not trading Scotty Barnes for him and the rest of the stuff they have they’re not getting him quickly no brooklyn yes charlotte would have to be LaMelo for Jaw which I think we’ve discussed on seven podcast at this point it’s a fun one not against it it’s a good Who says no i think Charlotte probably says no ultimately but it’s a fun one who says no why you see my percolating on that one you’re just picking a lot of my favorites here you know uh and then Washington that just feels wrong it is because it is wrong yeah that just brought for them front office group i mean I know it wasn’t yesterday but I think Jaw kind of disrupts the the team that trades for Jaw and this used to be the old Westbrook thing is that I know he puts up numbers and he’s talented i personally feel this way about his approach to basketball and and the flaws and how he fits in like you have to hand the keys you give them the entire franchise and you only do that if you feel like you have been a stale franchise for a really long time without any direction or any kind of plan and before Orlando hit despate Yeah and like before Orlando had hit on you know Fron and then winning the lottery and getting Paulo and be like okay we have real building blocks here who knows how it’s going to figure out but like there was there was different years ago different landing spots of like Westbrook it’s like would Westbrook to Orlando like work you know hey just you’ve got a you got an attraction but it happened in Washington so you could argue like it kind of happened in Washington it would at least feel like there’s a 3 to fouryear plan here for the Wizards where you’re a year in and you’d be completely derailing everything you’ve been you know hypothetically mapping out here by saying like “Okay now we have Jawan here and and good luck.” It’d be the most wizardy move in a while so then you go through the West and there’s a lot less candidates um there’s really just one team that jumps out cuz I don’t think New Orleans that doesn’t make sense and I don’t think Utah would do it either um Sacramento everything you just said about a desperation a malaise um make it a big swing not being afraid they check a lot of boxes for a jaw trade i think Sabonis probably has to be in it because I don’t think otherwise uh I don’t think you’re getting him for Lavine and picks or whatever they don’t really have a lot of assets but uh maybe it’s a three-way but that’s the only other team I looked at the point is I think a job trade is hard for them yeah I think VC would do it i think he would too yeah I think that’s the kind of thing that he would want to do like I thought Mont did a really good job with that team um but I I feel like there’s like a lot of these teams like sometimes you’re like what happened there or what went on there or whatever like we always have to remind ourselves a lot of times the owners go like “Hey this is what I want to do or this is what I’m gonna do here.” They bring in Scott Perry so are Scott and VC aligned enough that it’s like “Hey we’re a little flat here we were close it was new for us.” Like light the beam all the like they had some real momentum there but you knew that that was like that’s not a high ceiling team but this is kind of fun that they’re even in the mix considering their history and where they’ve been and that now like that building towards something it’s likely like “Hey that was it that was all it was going to be and you know Fox game seven against Golden State that’s where it landed right steph had Yeah 50 one other thing I was thinking could Memphis get a little sideways frisky maybe be maybe be no man no man lands it no man’s lands it i don’t know what the phrase is kcp and Brandon Clark to Denver for Michael Porter Jr and they say “Fuck it and then if you’re Denver you save salary you get two pieces for one you get out of the last two years of Porter’s deal and if you’re Memphis you’re like “Let’s take a fire on him the guy’s talented put him in the bane spot maybe he can capture 85% of his scoring.” And then we just got all these picks cuz whoever’s trading for Porter I like what you did there he can’t ever be expected to be anything more than your third option right that’s the best case scenario and if you were to bring him in being like “We’re going to have him.” Wait he’s going to be you know you can just already see the headlines that are fake we’re going to get him more in the actions yeah right he just needs more touches he’s a feel guy and when it’s right it’s beautiful it’s It’s nuts what he can do 610 those pull-ups off the dribble when it’s right you realize why this guy for a very long time at a young age was was projected to be this dude and there’s always these glimpses but him kind of back to the other thing we were talking about him not with Jokic somewhere else if you think that you’re twomaning it and Porter’s your one or two every single night you just I don’t even know how many teams would even think that but I like what you did there for Memphis thank you well there’s a bigger picture thing that ties into um that Jaylen Greed trade I mentioned earlier um the one that didn’t happen the one that hasn’t happened yet and maybe by the time this podcast goes up Durant will get traded to somebody else and this whole section will be moot but I do think and there’s a second piece of this that I want to talk about about why I don’t think San Antonio why I think something is changing about their philosophy of what to do big picture i think it makes the most sense for Durant to go to Houston and the trade that makes sense has to have Jaylen Green in it from a salary standpoint with Jabari who I think both of us really like uh maybe Whitmore is in it and they give Phoenix back their 27 pick we like I think we like Jabari but we’re running out we realistically like him yeah yeah um but if they can then flip green to Memphis and get their other pick back and Phoenix can at least write the ship for the next two years that gives them a lot more flexibility with Booker to be a little more patient and maybe they could do what OKC did with SGA where remember SGA OKC was just sitting him for two years basically there was one year where he just after the All-Star break we just didn’t see him again um they just punted on two years i don’t know if Sar would have the patience to do that but it leads to the KD thing which I think we have to talk about um because it feels like that’s going to happen pretty imminently the the he said the three teams he would sign an extension to was reported last night were San Antonio uh Miami and Houston so the two Texas teams in Miami Minnesota I don’t think could ever figure out the Go Bear defensenzo i just don’t think they had enough the salaries were weird they’re both hardcap teams um and I thought it was gonna be San Antonio okay so where are you on that because a week ago you were heavy on San Antonio i was and I’m not calling you out for it i just want to know like tell us of your journey the last seven days let’s say we’re working for the Spurs we find out we have the number two pick harper’s clearly the second pick i think we could both agree and now we’re just crunching Harper tape for a month and at some point we look at each other and go “What are we doing this guy’s clearly should be the second pick this guy’s a potential franchise guard he looks like he’s a combination of Kate Cunningham and Jaylen Brunson and I don’t even know what else but he’s a really unique awesome athlete he’s herky jerky um he’s crafty there’s stuff he’s doing at age 19 where Moxy yeah he’s he’s got a lot of moxy and guile and you’re like “Hey the dear Fox no brainer we didn’t have to give up a lot for him we wink wink maybe we’d give him an extension but this is kind of our guy maybe the move is to just take Harper move away from Fox not do the Durant trade and maybe our window isn’t right now maybe our window is like 3 four years from now when We W’s 24 25 when this kid has been in the league a couple years castles come up maybe we could kind of emulate what OKC has and build up through this nucleus why are we trading any assets for Durant now we’re not going to win the title it just makes me I don’t think Fox and Harper make sense together i don’t get it couple things I There’s maybe nothing I hate more than this idea that everybody’s supposed to be locked into this kind of timeline right right like the Dallas Mavericks talking about a timeline is it was like we’re smarter than everybody like you know we we need to be about defense and the way AD is paired with Kyrie it’s like everybody’s supposed to be within three [ __ ] years of each other for you to be doing like like Duncan couldn’t use Genobi Tony Parker like those guys are too young you know it’s not the same timeline all this stuff is so stupid and all of us bring it up constantly about like well if you have a guy who’s like in year six but then you have a lottery pick it’s like well who knows maybe when you likely don’t win the championship your best player who’s only in year nine and likely came in after one year and is 28 or 29 years old and you pair him with a guy you’ve completely nailed and he’s terrific in his second year guess what’s good about that he’s a really good player playing next to the other guy and it doesn’t mean that they have to be 28 or 26 it drives me [ __ ] crazy cuz everybody defaults to it all the time now that makes it sound like I’m totally aligned with you and I think the Durant thing is really stupid i feel like I could be talked into this either way where if if the price on Durant is Harrison Barnes Vel who I think we all like but you know what’s the ceiling there as of this point like he probably feels a little bit more like an opportunity score than just a dynamic like nobody can do anything with this guy um if it’s Barnes and it’s like some other later pick and it’s Barnes Vel the 14th pick and some future pick that’s okay but not awesome i would I would also do that trade in 5 seconds why not it it gets me excited a little bit about all right well let’s let’s see what happens here because this is a guy you can bring in and you know he’s going to put up numbers even when he was miserable coming off of that summer going into Brooklyn he put up huge numbers until he was then pretty quickly miserable again by the trade deadline and ended up getting his way out so well he wants he wants to be there is the other piece he likes if he wants to be there he likes the Austin San Antonio area i really do i think he likes that area okay i don’t know i don’t know because you know you’re also betting on somebody who finds a way to be unhappy everywhere he goes as much as we love him as a player like that’s on him and I I see him arguing it’s only been the last seven years you’re right it has only been the last seven hasn’t been a full decade it’s only been seven years and the last three stops so you know based on pricing and hey we do this and I would think every team wants to do the two-year extension with them i don’t understand why he’d be trading kind of anything for a one-year rental of Durant uh I know the numbers at 2 years 122 million which he’s eligible for after July 6th i don’t know why you would wait another six months to do two years 124 million i hear that one talked about all the time it’s like if you’re Durant you go “It’s okay i’ll risk the other two million with my injury history at this stage of my life i’ll take the 122 now.” And I’d imagine that he would want that um it also reminds me a bit of the Jimmy Butler thing is Jimmy Butler didn’t like Golden State until Golden State was the only option and they go opt in and then we’ll tack on the next year so you’re going to get another year at like max money it’s like you know what i maybe I could do this Golden State thing the Minnesota thing minnesota’s not on my list oh you’re going to promise me two years oh now you are on my list right everybody has a million options in their head and all their preferences and the things they will do or they won’t do until it’s like okay well all those things you thought were in play you don’t get to decide you don’t have those options are not on your terms so now here are the only things that are left so now you got to pick one of these and a lot of times you’re picking one that you didn’t think you were even going to do or you’re trying to talk yourself out of it so on the other part of the Spurs part which kind of speaks to criticizing my own timeline thing here is if the Spurs if we came out although you know you don’t hear a lot from the Spurs they just went hey Durant at this stage and the two years 222 million we’re really excited about Harper we’ll see how it fix fits with Fox for a year it probably is a little redundant there there’s a lot of over overlap in their games um you know can Fox later on play off a little bit more than he did before that seems kind of stupid have Darren Fox playing off of him he already couldn’t do that with Hallebertton in Sacramento so I’m gonna guess it’s still not going to happen which would be the funniest thing for Fox it’s like you got to stay because of Hallebertton and then they got Dylan Harper which they didn’t expect clearly they didn’t think they were getting Dylan Harper when they make that trade and now you get spun out for the new young guy which was again the opposite of what happened there with Hallebertton i have now if I’ve I’ve talked about this enough this week i don’t really like it i I would say hey you know are we really solving anything here or we just more interesting for 25 yeah or and it’s also going to cost us another 122 million for a guy that does get hurt and who knows if he’s pissed off about being here in a year and goes “Oh you know I only have one year left.” Or you know he does the extension and it’s like he plays two years i don’t I don’t think it makes a ton of sense i really don’t i don’t think I don’t do it even though the price isn’t that bad we agree because the difference with them and Houston san Antonio has no reason to be desperate at all what do they care right they have this amazing roster of assets and picks and all these other things it’s not like they’re like “Oh we got to cap this off and get Durant.” Whereas I look at Houston I actually think Houston not only needs Durant but becomes a really interesting team if they can add him and all they give up is Jabari and Jaylen Green and Cam Whitmore and they give Phoenix their pickback i still really like the nucleus of their team like post trade they would have Shenun and Adams they’d have KD and Aman Thompson they’d have Een and Brooks and Whitmore they would have Van Vleet and Shepard and the 10th pick like that’s a lot to work with just to throw Durant and what was the one thing they needed last year was a guy to score at the end of games so it’s a home run across the board I think for them i uh if that was the price and I just don’t think San Antonio is going to top that from a price so well he wanted Houston apparently last year um I don’t know why Houston would be giving back that Phoenix unprotected pick that they were able to get in the Brooklyn thing which has worked out for Houston because at the time it’s like I mean I went through all the Houston Brooklyn stuff when we did the show together just almost you know almost exactly a year ago it was like what did Brooklyn do here it’s like well Brooklyn wasn’t going to do the trade for Bridges unless they knew they could get their picks back so you could sit there and say well you’re giving up these valuable Brooklyn picks it’s like well you don’t know what Brooklyn’s going to do they’re not going to get rid of Bridges unless they know they’re going to get their picks back and then you’re looking at well there’s a chance especially with Dallas winning it’s like what if they had won the lottery you’re like Houston gives that pick back but now it looks like Stone pulled off another one here because it’s going to be four picks for the two you’ve made it through the the scary part of like where’s that we like to trade for Houston though when that happened we’re like cool like they they basically leveraged they took advantage of Brooklyn kind of panicking right i think we like the trade for them well Brooklyn couldn’t tank unless they knew they were getting their picks back so they were paying a premium for that they’re paying the vig but a year ago the conversation and then in the fall was like “What if Brooklyn ends up you know they gave him that pick back but it wasn’t it wasn’t that there was clearly the thing in front of it.” So you think that’s too much for Durant to also include the Phoenix pick yeah I think Phoenix is a mess right now like not trending in the right direction so why would I help them stabilize in front of that what if Phoenix says that’s the only way you’re getting Durant then I’d be like let’s [ __ ] Jabari this up i think I agree with you although if you I wouldn’t trade I wouldn’t trade Durant to Phoenix unless I got my own pickback like if Houston’s like “How about the 10th pick?” I’d be like “No I want my pick back i need my pick back.” When the deal happened last year and they have the 27 Phoenix pick that’s unprotected I thought that was the single most valuable asset in all this stuff and I don’t know that look if you would talk to us if we were having this conversation right after game seven it’s like “Hey guess what offense wasn’t great in clutch moments?” like it was Houston’s who saw that coming right this feels like a very solvable plug-andplay throw them in there um you’d wonder if you were Houston and you’re talking to Phoenix going like “All right what’s I mean they don’t know what the hell the rest of their plan’s going to be.” I mean we got to keep reminding oursel how quickly these things change but the unknown of what that 27 pick could be i’m not interested in doing that for somebody with KD that isn’t a complete it’s a slam dunk from the scoring thing in the fourth quarter for 2526 but it’s an expensive 122 million for the years beyond that and you know his habit of you know you really wish one of these picks that they had had turned into some sort of super polished closer in the fourth quarter as much as you can love Amen Thompson it probably feels like a reach to think that he’s going to be closing playoff games and being their number one scoring option and then Durant just eases up everything else for everybody else i would be very reluctant to want to get rid of that 27 pick or could you use a lot of those assets with something else and try to get somebody younger than Durant like a Jaylen Brown who I don’t even know if is available who do you think is more valuable Jaylen Brown or Kevin Durant jaylen Brown it’s not even close he’s 10 years younger right i was looking at the Durant stuff he’s 37 years old in September he’s played 18 seasons he’s played 11 11,023 games and 170 playoff games so he’s almost at 1300 combined games he’s played 41,000 regular season minutes 7,000 playoff minutes so he’s getting close to 50,000 um if you just look at the numbers of hey 37 and over who’s averaged 20 a game it’s LeBron it’s Carl Malone it’s Kareem and it’s that one Michael Jordan Wizards season so this is like the rarest of rare territory just to be good after this age right and then you think had foot fracture uh he had the uh Achilles he’s had some knee stuff 7 feet tall you know so there’s that but then on the other hand in the 2020s just this decade he’s averaging 287 and five 53% 42% from three like he’s been pretty steady offensively um there’s been some slate athletic signs of decline that I’ve seen just from like the defense and rim protection and um I wouldn’t say he’s 2014 KD but he’s 88% there 85% I don’t know i just don’t know how many more years he has left because NBA history says this isn’t going to go in a great direction from here you know so that speaks to your Phoenix point you’re trading you’re not trading for a sure thing whereas if I’m trading for somebody like Jaylen Brown or even Desmond Bane I know I’m getting like the best years of their career right now with Durant I don’t know what I’m getting all fair i mean none of this is new to anybody that’s paying attention to the league as much as his scoring is like you’re so enamored but like run through all of the stuff and by the way I need to clean it i knew as soon as I said it Ginobi and like Duncan are the same age but he didn’t play for three years no but he came in he was in 03 he was him and Parker were young and Duncan was point still stands bad bad little tidbit on that one based on the technicality they’re the same age anyway here’s the thing go through it all like if I’m if I’m Stone in Houston I’m like “Okay so what’s your Miami offer right it’s Wiggins it’s Wiggins and where?” Well I don’t know if they’ll do where because it’s it’s Wiggins one of the young guys we don’t like and then a pick and then maybe a swap all right okay what’s Minnesota’s offer go bear and defenso or it’s Dillingham is the is the exciting thing because I mean there’s so many different problems that they have especially if they have to wait in like a signing Dillingham in that I wouldn’t put him in there would you uh I really like Durant to Minnesota i could probably live with it knowing how jammed up they are but I mean when you want to start running through like if they didn’t do I was looking at it this morning i don’t know how Minnesota like goes from how expensive is this team going to be and why they did the cat deal um knowing that his numbers at the end but I mean if you were at Ann at 49 million this is in 25 26 or maybe I did I was doing yeah um KD at 60 million Jaden at 26 million which look 5 years 130 million for him you know it’s not it’s not cheap it’s not terrible Nas has the numbers on what that could be or what he wants i’m just guessing 30 right 25 to 30 like minimum great guess nobody has cap Nobody has free agent uh I don’t know who I guess from a cap space standpoint maybe there’s not a lot of people with cap space maybe he goes for 20 25 i don’t know so it’s if it’s Devincenzo and Go Bear’s out and so that means Randall staying which now you’re like okay so who’s playing center what you didn’t mention Alexander Walker yet who’s a unrestricted free agent they’re just going to punt on him to me he’s just gone i mean I he doesn’t he doesn’t work in any of this stuff i know but that’s that’s a loss even that thought he I don’t know how they were going to redo Randall and then sign Nas and then keep Alexander W would you redo Randall i would not so you would just let him what opt in and we’ll talk to you next year yeah I would I would play chicken with him yeah I think that’s the right move there anything that has cap space so is Brooklyn going to sign Julius Randle probably not totally aligned on that one you just never know cuz sometimes they’ll be like “All right we’re going to do this.” And then you I I don’t you know again we’ve seen different versions of this anyway the point is is let’s keep Randall at that $30 million number on the player option that’s 190 million with those guys so you’re just below the first apron filled out seven spots yeah and I’m not counting the the stuff you know some of the smaller stuff that’s already on the books here with different roster stuff so again back to the exercise of that 27 pick that’s unprotected from Phoenix that Houston currently owns and what’s the Knicks deal i like OG i like Mitchell Robinson i’ve never liked Mitchell Robinson more than I do right now all right that guy was a [ __ ] in the playoffs knicks fans I get it i get it all right like him to stay healthy you can make the same health argument about Desmond Bane by the way but we’ve already done the Desmond Bane part of the pot so what’s Toronto’s deal hey do you want expensive former Knicks or expensive former Pelicans we got you all right now not impossible not impossible maybe there’s one guy in that group that the group in Phoenix actually really likes and they feel like it’s stable and then they get a center out of it and they’re like “Hey Booker we’re going to try to do this.” But what if what if whatever this is as we’re running through all these assets you know is Reed Shepard more valuable than the 27 unprotected potentially or maybe Houston still loves Reed Shepard so much they’d rather do something else and maybe they’d rather trade the pick in 27 than even Reed Shepard i feel like if I’m Houston I’m sitting on either the Shepard part of it the 27 that’s like that’s better than Goar aging out at 35 million a year that’s better than Dillingham that’s better than whatever the Heat are going to throw at you here um it’s probably better than Vel and then Harris pick they can throw it in too they don’t have they don’t have to put in number 10 or they don’t have to put in 2027 you’re right they don’t have they might have to say hey Jaylen Green is the second pick in the draft jabar have the two picks in 29 where they get the two best picks between Dallas Phoenix and I believe themselves in 29 so there’s other aven that okay but as quick as these things happen like what if what if Houston did the deal and it’s Booker’s like this Jaylen Green thing sucks right or this isn’t working out and then you start realizing that Booker’s like hey I tried it in the beginning I was patient the Chris Paul stuff was great we tried it with these three guys this sucks be still hanging he just bought another condo in Scottsdale he says “I’m never leaving.” Bill joined another golf club he’s decap four country clubs i’m not going anywhere he’s down to an handicap yeah he’s He’s never felt better about his approach short game is great right now there’s just so many unknowns where I feel like all of us could like oh just throw a pick in there throw a pick in there if you compare it and maybe there’s another secret thing out there that’s a really valuable piece i mean are you with me on this at all or do you think I’m crazy you sued me a little that the case for it would be can we actually make the finals if we make this trade right we still have an awesome nucleus green it’s basically green and jabari for Durant and then we threw some other stuff in there that we can’t use right now anyway and that’s the trade but I think you’re I think the who are we bidding against if San Antonio is like ah we’re getting Dylan Harper i don’t know and then Miami I just don’t think has the kind of assets to swim in this pool right i guess they could throw a bunch of first down the road but why are you doing that for Kevin Durant in his 19th season here’s another timeline to revisit we’ve already touched on it last year it was you were hearing Durant wanted to go to Houston so I feel good about him actually wanting to go there and I imagine his team is telling whoever it is because there’s no other option this waiting six months for the extra 2 million they’re going to want to in the beginning of July say we need that two years $122 million extension durant’s like “Cool just pocketed another.” I thought it was 112 excuse me uh no i thought I thought it was an extra 12 million if you waited six months either way I asked Bobby Marks this morning so okay well I thought it was 122 versus 124 he’s going to grab the money is you’re right why would he wait six months well I I saw it talked about a few times i was like I need to look that up i mean it’s hard to keep track of all this [ __ ] right taxes like like there’s no point and I don’t know if you’ve heard this but there’s no state income tax in Texas what did you know this oh yeah huge advantage for the Stars so he wanted Houston last year there was a TV report that said they wanted to Phoenix wanted to trade him i was lucky enough to talk to somebody we said it on the pod it was like I talked to somebody to say they’re not trading they’re not trading they didn’t trade him all right this Minnesota thing happened before the deadline supposedly Durant was kind of open to the Minnesota thing doesn’t mean I’m right and by the way all of the things I’m about to say could be completely irrelevant golden State had the deal done and then found out no I don’t want to go back there so I’ve also seen it talked about where it’s like well they want to do right by Durant this time around because he was left out of the process if anything you could argue that Golden State and Miami kind of went through the process of it all last year or I should say this year before the trade deadline and then once they had something in place instead of wasting his time and updating him and his team all the time like “Hey we could do this do you want to do it?” That’s being involved he says he didn’t want to do it so he can’t really play the card of like he was left out of this process and it was somewhat disrespectful so whether or not he wanted to play with a wanted to go to Minnesota in February I don’t even know if that’s true it appears that’s not what he wants to do now which is cool with that i heard it was like a five or six team it got too complicated was one of the issues in February in February yeah because there was no way to do it what do you believe now do you think he wants Do you think Minnesota because it’s not brought up i think he wants to go to Texas i heard Minnesota Miami and Texas are all the favorites at different points of the week i would not rule out him wanting to be in Miami but Miami feels like it’s I mean unless they love Khlo Wear which there’s a lot of nice stuff from him what’s he doing in Miami other than he gets to live in Miami what’s going to happen should we ask that question though should we I just don’t think you’re you’re even in the Eastern Finals with that nucleus nothing’s happening houston is the only team that I feel like he could elevate i even have real questions about him with Edwards that feels dueling banjos to me we’ve seen I sometimes it is and sometimes it’s an awesome feels like another another Booker situation where there’s a lot a lot of Durant standing in the corner like I guess I’m not in this one and he has that weird body language thing he gets going from time to time I’ll just be over here guys whereas Houston they’d be like please take us home here’s the ball eight minutes left do your thing like they don’t have anybody else other than Shenon but it is funny how when teams have one option as that closing scorer and it’s like Manny needs help and that’s what Ant needed looking at those possessions this is where we disagree i don’t think he needed help i think he needed a [ __ ] point guard that’s what they need i wouldn’t if if I’m going to make trades I’m not trading for Kevin Durant i want to get like a somebody who can actually handle the ball and take pressure off Edwards and get fast breaks connley was in that OKC series connley would looked like he was 50 years old that was why they lost they couldn’t bring the ball up was it it wasn’t because they didn’t have enough scoring that’s how I watched the series conley Western Conference Finals moment it was I thought it was going to be bad it was way worse and listen I just went to a second half of a game four where Lou Dort was looking at Hallelbertton who’s one of the best guards in the league and was like “You’re not dropping the ball over half court i’m not letting you do it so poor Mike Connley is 37 that was like his worst he’s probably in bed like [ __ ] seeing nightmares of Lud Dorton Caruso i think they need a point guard i don’t think Durant changes their destiny at all okay and there’s also a funny thing that we’ve already touched on here before imagine if Houston gets Durant and is ramped up and it’s 25 versus 2018 you’re like “Hey we’re the team best positioned to try to take on.” Oh it’s like we’re rebooting this yeah same situation like in 10 years from now where there’s just this epic player and he’s on another team and the guy’s like “Hey Houston do you want to be the one that goes in there first?” And he tries to give this a shot so year 19 of Durant I just don’t think gets discussed enough in all this stuff now maybe he can keep it going for two more years three more years but this is we are now at the point LeBron defied it carl Malone who even if the stats say he was still pretty awesome if you actually watch those games post the two finals he was at a slightly different point in his career jordan on the Wizards Kareem near the end like LeBron’s the only one who’s defi it and by the way LeBron hasn’t been in the final since 2020 so you know they like when you go to these games and you see how young and athletic everybody is like there’s a reason for that it’s really hard to win four rounds in a row when you’re an older player it’s almost impossible the only reason Bill Russell was able to do in 1969 was because the series were shorter and it was three rounds like he didn’t have to win 16 playoff games i just think counting on old guys is really hard we agree i mean when you run through all this stuff you don’t need to i think everybody listening for the most part but it is still Durant and whoever gets to introduce him with a brand new jersey i think you’re right if they could be Jabari and Jaylen Green some other pick that’s not the 10th pick or the Phoenix pick that’s that’s my offer and if you can top it so be it jaylen Green’s still young had some really good moments in the league and we both like Jabari uh let’s see but I’d like to see more from Jory can I end with one last thing though you just said it okay he’s been in the league this long right he hasn’t been happy the last few stops it makes sense because we think he cares about hooping so much that he would want to go someplace that at least has a chance to contend in the next year or whatever the next three if he likely I still would imagine he’s going to get the extension if teams are giving up if you’re giving up Jaylen Green and Jabari you probably still want control of the asset as opposed to like well let’s see what happens in summer 26 can’t imagine any team wanting to do that but would there be like a long form feature Brian Winhorse if he ended up on Miami where it was like the role model Kevin Durant never thought he would have the Bradley Bill story and they’re like why South Beach Kevin why the [ __ ] not we’ll take a break quickly uh San Antonio I forgot to mention one thing if they did trade Darren Fox and they just went We Wy Harper Castle let’s go i’m just going to throw a couple fake trades at you just for fun um Fox to Brooklyn for 819 and 27 does Brooklyn have a meeting yeah okay let’s say that happens could they then flip 814 and 27 and move up to four to Charlotte for for a guy Canipple basically turning Fox into Canipple with a couple other assets kind of fun that timeline would make sense much more like the analogy where I should have said Kawhi Leonard instead of Janoli for Duncan yeah would still stand yeah um is there a Trey Murphy possibility where Fox could go to Brooklyn and then you take you basically do the Bane trade with the extra picks you have more stuff and try to get Trey Murphy from New Orleans who I think is getable if you just do the Bane price maybe even more that’s the kind of trade I would rather see them do than Durant there’s one other one though and tell me what you think of this they’re keeping Fox if they just dropped from two to three and got McCain in the trade from Philly so they would still pick be picking a three and they could take Canipo or Trey Johnson what or Ace Bailey whatever they want um and they get McCain but I also don’t feel like Phillyy’s giving up quite enough what is that trade for you if it’s McCain and three plus what to move up a spot corkmos they still have his rights i don’t think they have his rights anymore or is that just a no-go you’re not you’re you’re keeping Harper no one in the NBA would trade out of the two into the three that’s how I feel too i just wanted to talk it out i don’t think so even if Utah was like “We’ll give you Mark in and five to move up to two and we’ll throw in some extra stuff.” They’re still like “No thank you.” Yes yeah that’s why I think they should trade the Aaron Fox um we got to talk finals we’re going to do a whole bunch of draft stuff but um I guess we’ll do it next Sunday i was prepped i’ll be I’ll be even more prepped next week i have some people I will say I’ll I’ll give you this I’ll leave you with this little tidbit nemhart’s in my draft prep nemhart’s brother who’s like a late second rounder i bought some stock Ryan Nemhard on Gonzaga average almost 10 assists a game last year i watched some film i like them only 5’11 you’re doing second rounders already i just he was he was I already had my sleeper um the finals what’d you see in game four you didn’t get to talk about it on pod there’s a moment in the third quarter where I was very surprised to see how just out of sorts OKC was on offense again and it was a lot of like SGA can you come back and take the ball can you come back and take the ball and it was the first moment in the entire finals where I was like maybe this is actually going to happen i mean sometimes this stuff has to happen sometimes we have to have these great stories this is why we keep coming back the sports need to be unpredictable for us to continue to be entertained because what if what if the ball just bounces the right way and in that moment I’m like what is up with this OKC offense this is awful felt the same way sitting in my seat there was it was like a five minute stretch where you’re like my god this this is going to happen right really i really did feel it it felt like they had kind of mentally broken OKC a little bit yeah it wasn’t the first quarter it wasn’t that building third quarter it was that third quarter where I went “Holy shit.” Like I had to like almost just have a moment with myself being like “This might actually happen.” And I think this is important because you didn’t catch it because I want to get to you more than me because I was at home watching it but on the broadcast it’s like a six-point game but it felt like 12 it felt like the 12 like OKC’s down six and it feels like 12 against the Pacers but that’s just how impressive the Pacers had been and on the broadcast you have Doris you have Breen you have Richard Jefferson and it’s like hey this is still a six-point game and it was like 9 minutes to go but they were right it would be easy if you didn’t experience it in real time it’d be right to be making fun of the announcers to be like why are you telling us it’s a six-point game as if anybody’s changing the channel but it the control of the game just favored the Pacers and it was so al like aligned with what we saw in game three that you’re you’re like all right I I guess they just kind of figure this team out and yet like why would I be doubting a 68 win team like OKC why would he be doubting this team that has the best point differential in NBA history and they’re down six and you’re like kind of worried about them and I thought the announcing crew did such a great job of delaying that vibe that it’s only six points it’s only six and they said it a couple different times and instead of being critical of something that would seem like almost an observational mistake it was the perfect way to sum up how the game felt and then SGA happens bunch of different stuff you were there what did you think well I remember I turned to I was sent with my friend Chen and at one point OKC was 1 for 12 from three and Indiana was 11 for 27 and they were up eight so they’re plus 10 on threes but they were up eight and we were just like this is I can’t we couldn’t believe OKC was still in the game it felt like they especially when that sequence when Toppen hit the two threes and the crowd went nuts and it just felt like OKC was dying to be knocked out for about three minutes and they couldn’t do it and they hung around and they hung around and then um the only reason not to count them out was just how crazy the defense was i said it I went on Zach’s pod Friday i was saying I I don’t think I’ve ever seen defense like that in person i’ve seen rim protection defense that was as good this was different this was attacking whoever had the ball 50 feet from the hoop and making it impossible for them to even start the offense it was like [ __ ] you would see in like a high school game where some some crazy guy is like the he’s won 500 career games in Long Island and he has this crazy press and the other team can’t get it over half court that’s what it felt like but it was Hallebertton and Nemhard like these guys are good guards that are good ball handlers and Dort was just standing there on the logo just wiping people out and then you have Caruso and then you have Jaylen Williams who I thought was really really awesome in that game and really took it to Seakkum and just athletically that that it just eventually won out and um I just I thought Dort was the MVP i said that the other day i know SJ had 15 in the fourth quarter and came through in the end but I thought what Dort did all game and the physicality and the intensity and just how he kept [ __ ] with Hallebertton um really hard to do he’s the first guy all playoffs who’s kind of slowed down Halbertton to the point where if you’re on a show going they need Halbert needs to step up it’s like you’re not watching you don’t understand what’s happening with this like Lud Door is impossible to go by so I thought that was why they won and then SGA I didn’t see so when we were sitting in the seats that after the three that pushoff shot where he traveled I I just didn’t see that angle that was uh an amazing no call it was like we didn’t cover that on the Friday night thing that was really rough because he definitely pushed off and he definitely traveled and Foster was just staring at it and didn’t do anything really tough call do you want to talk about the extender he was bad for both teams there was no I talked about it Friday night there was no rhyme or reason for the calls there were touch fouls being called there was Dort and Caruso just kind of shoving guys away at midcourt to get the ball or create steals or running through picks i just I didn’t understand what a foul was in that game they’re bad for everybody both coaches were mad both benches were mad um it was just all over the place the two SGA plays that everybody has talked about I don’t think officiating had anything to do with the game i rarely do but I don’t like rewarding the offensive player for initiating that contact on Nmith on the one at the free throw line but E Smith is also on a heater of fouling which is to be expected he’s averaging over five fouls per 36 minutes which according to NBA.com is the highest foul rate of any player who’s played 175 minutes or more but that’s how Neith plays but it’s very it’s playing out like that regular season game that I keep referencing there was there were few things that I thought okay that’s interesting that’s interesting is that whether it’s Jaylen Williams or SGA and it’s really when Jaylen Williams gets him he’s like I’m going to kill Nesmith so N Smith this hyperactive physical defender Jaylen Williams is like you have nothing for me okay and to the point where they were running that twoman game which is something that if you track it there’s not a lot of on ball screens being set by SGA over the course of the regular season and that he and Jaylen Williams started doing it for each other and the hope was to get Nesmith because they needed to get Nemhar off of Hallebertton yeah so there’s this and everybody’s been talking about this now uh yeah excuse me sga trying to get him off of SGA he’s just doing such a good job with it but they started working this like twoman thing and setting screens in ways that it’s just not something that they normally do which is you know look the Pacers would be ready for it in game five if they want to go back to that kind of stuff but the whole point of it is let’s get N Smith in the action let’s get N Smith in the action and yeah there was a lot of free throws and everything but I want to stay on this because I’ I’ve heard about it so much especially with Scott Foster being involved in it a part of this game that’s a little easier to miss is that the Thunder were called for four fouls on defensive rebounds within six minutes of the fourth quarter and there was a fifth foul on Nesmith so for the whole idea of that hey let’s extend this series let’s get OC back to 22 and all that kind of [ __ ] that’s why Foster’s on the game they called five fouls on the Thunder and got the Pacers into the bonus with over six minutes to go and again four of them i don’t know that I’ve seen that very often four fouls on the Thunder just trying to box out and I’m not arguing that they were or weren’t fouls but I think on a lot of box out stuff you can find more fouls there if you want to it’s like college officials they’ll just pick a game in the tournament decide to call all of them you’re like “How come this person?” that was on our basket and they definitely were doing this mauling technique of the rebounds but what that was that speaks to my point from earlier they started calling stuff in the fourth quarter that they didn’t call for the first three quarters i hate that the most well this game was no consistency to anything that was happening the two Pacers games or at least at Indiana it felt like there’s so much effort in that first half that and it might be even a little underplay we’ll see you know what happens here in game six in the second half but you can you can almost see the guys exhausted on both sides like I thought Chad was spent in game three i thought Chad was so good defensively he was getting into switches he was holding up against perimeter players he’s contesting shots like Hallebertton got him one side um so I look I thought that was kind of interesting in the free throw part of it it’s like okay I understand this team lost so it’s all about the free throws i hated the baseline thing with SGA i don’t like that N Smith foul but it is a foul and all that stuff but there’s another like dagnol part of this is that he he they clearly don’t like Hartinstein because he’s a target for the Pacers when he’s in he’s targeted and let’s face it he’s a nice player he’s been a [ __ ] zero on offense for this entire series and him holding the ball 30 feet away to do some sort of dribble handoff thing in a playoff game when everybody’s flying around at full speed that stuff looks all right in the regular season it’s kind of a waste of time in these playoff games it kind of slows everything down the way everybody’s hedging against all this stuff i said that to Zach on Friday night he’s become a backup center and I don’t feel like he was during this season yeah in this series and a little bit last series too you know drifted that way look at the game logs and the minutes like they they’re pulling away from it you could argue some games it’s just Chad has it going chad had the two follow dunks too on top of the really good defense because you know he closed really poorly after a great start in game three didn’t play that well but at that 609 foul the fifth team foul against OKC another defensive rebound thing Dagnel went to the double big and I was like he must like that staff has to be going can we grab a board can we grab a board in this game to close this thing out went double big for just about two minutes a little under that and I don’t know if it settled but clearly you know look Caruso is the preferable guy as opposed to the double big against this stuff because I think they worry about Hardenstein being a target but it almost felt like in those two minutes when he went double big his main concern was we got to figure out a way to try to control the defensive glass here and we’re not closing six minutes of double big but let’s just let’s try to change our physicality here for a couple minutes because our guys are getting eaten up just trying to box out i think he was trying to help out Chad too a little bit because he didn’t want to take Chad out so it was like I’ll give you a little added muscle for a couple minutes here um Jaylen Williams was the only guy on that team that didn’t look tired in that game because SGA you know they played Wednesday night and that Wednesday night game was a brutal game brutal game oh yeah so they’re 48 hours later indiana looked fresher than uh than OKC for the most part but they’re also home you get energy from home but Jaylen Williams was the one on that team that and Dort who Dort is like he’s not even human um I just thought my big takeaway from just seeing that in person for those two days is just how unique Dort is because I was thinking before the playoffs like all right if they win the title they got to pay these guys maybe they’ll trade Dort wallace can take his minutes dort is untradeable for me like it with the toughness and physicality and all the stuff he does for them i don’t think they have anyone on the roster to replace it to just have somebody who can wipe out the best guy on the other team and make it like even when Hallebertton was scoring they were like you know flying down the lane layups where he had to like throw it high off the backboard with some spin on it just to like make the shot like it was nothing was easy for them and that’s why they won the game and that’s why they’re gonna win the title i I think I just feel like Indiana missed their chance they had it they had it in that third quarter i felt that way when I left i felt that way on Friday night when we talked about it and you know it was 80 it felt like it was 86 to 76 for two three minutes there and they just couldn’t extend it to 15 it gets to 15 okc wasn’t making threes they’re not coming back from that you know but they just couldn’t get the hump high enough and I don’t know what the what the fixes are either because we we’ve seen with some of these games when you kind of unlock the other team it just kind of gets worse as the series goes along like I think the Warriors Celtics series and 22 is a good kind of parallel to that it just everything you got worried about just starts to get worse and worse as it goes i think they’ve figured out if they’re not going to call those fouls on Dort Caruso at half court with how physical they’re being it’s going to be really hard for Indiana to run offense like that remember that part where they were putting Seiakum 40T from the basket and he was trying to go one-on-one and they were OKC was like really this is you’re doing this no thanks um the only wild card is Matarin to just he seems like you know and he’s the ultimate trickor treat guy but that’s the one where I I felt like they should have thrown him in in the fourth quarter they were so stale it was so hard for them to do anything they kind of needed the wild card keycheck irrational confidence guy it feels like a quarterback avoiding pressure and then like getting back to the line of scrimmage and then thinking he has like another chance at the same play they’d be they’d be scrambling it would all get shut off and then it’d be like “All right Hallebert.” And now it’s like started all over again and I didn’t have any issues with him uh and Seakum had such a terrific game like completely well-rounded with the steals the assists the boards the shooting wasn’t great but the problem is it’s like okay but now you’re taking you’ve had this really nice game and you kind of need to be like a number two scoring option with some of this stuff and I know everybody’s gonna think that I’m just kind of on his ass again but you know the variance of of noticing him to then going “Oh did he did he take one shot in the fourth quarter in the second half?” Well that that I mean once they took away their fast breaks and slowed the pace down the pace by the way has been like a non-factor maybe you can say they pushed it a little bit more in game three but like if you look at the pace numbers game by game it’s 102 97 a half 100 that’s for the full games though the first half of game four especially for the first like quarter and a half Indie had to have been delighted cuz Okay see this is what Indie does over and over again they pull you into how they want to play and OKC is doing it and then they backed off i I think OKC’s fine playing at a pace they played at a faster pace than the Pacers have for the entire playoffs uh they’ve had a lead now going into the fourth quarter the first three games they didn’t have it they come back the story lines that I touched on after they were down 2-1 it’s like all of these storylines that are potentially in play of doing the obituary on what this Thunder team ended up being right if they had lost this series who knows they could still lose this series i’m I’m at a point now where certainly I’m not going to like change my pick or anything but this Pacers team is more real uh in this in this final series than I certainly thought a lot of us thought but you know the too young thing right or they didn’t play in enough clutch games and it’s like man if they were too young doesn’t that show up in game seven against Denver doesn’t it show up i thought that game four win against Minnesota was just a just an absolute like ballsy we’re here type of win and so you come back and you win this game four like if the Pacers were to win this are you allowed to say that it was oh because the Thunder were too young if they were too young they don’t come back in game four of this series the too young thing comes with going three for 17 from three and having 10 assists but they didn’t shoot it well some of their young guys were MIA like like people like Wiggins Wallace those are the guys that when you’re talking about too young they’re just not getting stuff from the role guys that’s why Caruso was so huge in that game i mean Caruso you know he might make the Hall of Fame now michael Cooper made it does Siana make the Hall of Fame i don’t know we The answer is yes he probably does yeah second best guy in a finals team might be on pace for like almost 20,000 points do you know where OKC is right now as far as three-point shooting in the playoffs where 13th out of 16 teams they shot it well against Minnesota they did not shoot it great the first two series and that’s another thing that’s so scary about this team is that I mean I wonder where they’ll be historically as a three-point shooting team if they stay at some of these numbers or they have another bad shooting night like they’re in that game and I’m I’m glad that you brought up that math because you’re like something feels wrong here are they going to they’re going to be one to 12 it just doesn’t resemble the basketball we watch in 2025 when somebody could be that bad from three and be in the game that’s usually a death okay another observation because when the Thunder are not talking to each other only Caruso is the guy with any energy on the bench and they’re down and they look lost in that body language doc is right there just studying everything you’re on the case it is used against them it’s like who’s you know you start thinking like hey who’s their Draymond Green like where’s their emotional leader where’s their badass is this too subdued a group of players you know that wasn’t what I was thinking i was thinking more like these guys have all the same type of personality where they’re just like they just go the only thing I really noticed would you have said that if they lost no the only thing I thought was that they seemed tired like Chad looked like he was going to keel over like for real all the young guys like people like Wallace and guys like that it just you could just tell they weren’t going to get anything from those guys but Caruso I thought was you know really seems like he’s the glue to everything and then SGA they never bailed on him he took him out for that one minute and he got the fourth foul um and he looked tired there’s no question he didn’t have a good first half they said it after so like I think Dagnald even had said you know he wasn’t having the best game and then he was going to have to work through it and we’re going to have to figure a way to get Nemhar off of him you know yeah and then Jaylen Williams I thought you know the fact that he can do what he does but that team they’re they’re just a bunch of dudes that you know they’re like an like a football team that just kind of goes out is like “You’re not getting a first down right now.” You know they just have a vibe to them it’s hard to explain i think they I think they specifically pick certain type of personality types and that’s who they look at and go after like Draymond wouldn’t make sense on that team i don’t think they would ever have a guy like like that kind of boisterous type of you know big alpha personality it’s not the kind of team they have even Dagnal when you watch him like he got mad at the refs for him at one point and mad at him in the refs is just him like making a face and putting his hands out he’s not like a screamer um everything they do and I I think they do a lot of stuff after the games which has been uh talked about about how they they constantly barrage the NBA with like clips and stuff like that but I think on the court even afterwards I thought it was interesting Dagnald said I thought they called a good game they could have called even more fouls did you hear that quote he had like they’re very careful about not pissing off the refs or showing them up halurn when he got fouled that one time and he did he was doing the holding his hands up and I don’t know refs hate that [ __ ] this has been Jason Tatum’s problem for the last three years when he does that sarcastic wave at the refs like they [ __ ] hate that okay he doesn’t do any of that stuff ant’s another one ant just every single baseline on the way up it’s like before I get my balance back I’m going to [ __ ] this guy uh Hallebertton had every right to be upset on that day but he just gets called a little differently than most stars i would I would just the default that it’s always the refs it’s always the refs it’s always the refs and you just go like “All right well you want to go through do you want you want me to file you want me to find a Nemhart foul that wasn’t called?” But you didn’t think that was a well-alled game i thought that game I thought the flow of that game was a [ __ ] mess it was really really compared to the other games that we’ve had that was like a mess on both sides i thought the game just became very different the way it was well what do you expect in game five well it was nice to see the fourth quarter defense that we’d expect from the Thunder to show up uh although I still think the Pacers defense in game three of that fourth quarter was more impressive than when they pulled that game out i thought what they were doing on defense like that was that game three thing i’m just telling you game three Pacers it changes the way I feel about them in the East okay going into next year number one we finally got there boys and girls took me three games to the NBA finals but it was it was pretty special but unfortunately for for Pacers fans not the case in game four and I the whole time the whole time going into this is like I just think that Thunder defense is going to be too hard to solve for four wins and that’s how I feel about it still i mean you know here’s the thing is going home okc just feels due to knock down like 14 15 threes here in one of these games yeah this this has a 29 point blowout vibes i also wonder like everything was going so magically for Indiana for two months there and that was the first game where like Hallebertton does the little step back when they really need it the you know the dribble dribble dribble three step back and it was an airball it was it was almost like the clock hit midnight for them in that fourth quarter in so many different ways but I do think I do think they have some moves like some things have worked okc they’ve lost some trust in a couple guys like they’re basically down to six and a half guys now that’s a good sign for Indiana um and for Indiana like they’ve had different guys play well the whole series i don’t feel like the only guy they seem like they’ve lost confidence in is Thomas Bryant everybody else is they had already lost had moments yeah i guess they re-lost it uh but they need if I was them I would have been sending uh just clips of Dort Cruso mauling my guards at midc court i would have sent a whole highlight video of like “Hey are they allowed to do this just check in because I thought that was I thought they got away with physicality which they should do because if you’re getting away with it do it you know.” But uh man that’s the story of the series is that the the Caruso trade what it did for them when you actually going against them when they ramp it up is the scariest thing in the league and that’s probably why they’re going to win the title um do you remember and I I’m not trying to like put you on this the energy that OKC came out with defensively the first touch that Hallebertton got it was just swarming i think they sent two of him and it was like intense grant it’s when your freshest games just tipped and I was like uh oh what’s going on here and then the Pacers survive it and yeah you’re going all right you know like it was so I I almost was wondering like are they just is this like blitzing on the first drop back of an NFL game and like hey let’s just do something so that they know we’re coming today and like we’re going to do this because like the first play was so much energy defensively it’s well you’re not going to be able to keep doing that kind of stuff like this is insane how hard you’re going just on this trap and Pacers feel great about themselves thunder can’t knock down a shot there’s a bunch of possessions and you’re right like Wiggins coming in isn’t pretty wallace got caught up like in between a decision there in the fourth quarter on one play we’re like okay that’s like a sign of somebody not necessarily they weren’t they weren’t guarding him either they like if he was out there they were just playing off him hartinstein he feels like he’s lost his confidence but this is what happens when we get to the finals you start guys start falling off in the battlefield and you end up with five guys six guys left i’m glad you brought up football because it really was what OKC reminded me of watching them it was like watching an awesome defense just put everyone on the line knowing that their quarterbacks could could defend any receiver and just like going and at some point you’re like “Oh my god I don’t know i like we didn’t know what Indiana should do in the fourth quarter.” It got to that point like I don’t know they can’t get within 40 feet of the basket i don’t know what the move is like checkmated on the left side because I think because he had SGA but it was like 15 feet out and then he was just kind of dribbling you’re like what the [ __ ] is this play going to be that was every play he was turned and he didn’t have enough time and it wasn’t like a straight line drive or anything he was kind of turned turner had a couple threes where it looked like he wasn’t in a hurry to get those off and then Nemhart will when Hallebertton gets stuck nemhart’s the guy it’s like I’ll shoot like I’m good to go and then usually N Smith’s good for a three or two that you’re just like okay these are he had that huge one in in game three yeah not not yesterday turner is the wild card because you know obviously they have to win one of these next two in OKC to win the title plus the one at home and the way Turner looked in those two indie games if he’s gonna play like that is just no chance because they were giving him the wide openen shots at the top they were happy with them he wasn’t making them my guess would be OKC is going to win the next two i hate counting out Indiana like that but uh I just feel like that OKC solved something in those last two and then the closer you get the more you can smell it and anything you’re doing is going to be ramped up anyway once you get like really close to the title you’re going to be it’s going to be the craziest version of yourself right and the craziest version of OKC I don’t think Indiana can can score against so I feel like they missed their shot um all right so you’re covering uh you got Tuesday Thursday this week um yeah we got a lot of stuff i don’t know what we’re going to run we got a little F1 for you um Oh Ron Chernow you excited for the movie yeah definitely i really am every time Ron Chernow movie i’m excited for the Batman movie oh cuz I haven’t seen the Chernow movie trailer yeah the F1 yeah that looks great you’re so I was thinking about you the other day how easy I am to please with a trailer that wasn’t the thought but there’s these things that you love that I’ll know that you’re going to love but then you’ll just shock the world yeah and be like it’s kind of like your Star Wars position be like you like wrestling do you like Yeah top Gun yep you know and it’s like but you don’t like Star Wars then there’s like I don’t like Star Wars i just never got into it the the one the one I can’t The line I can’t cross is Wes Anderson movies i just don’t get it not for me i watched Tenon Bombs the other night yeah not for me i’m not against them just not for me it’s a Owen Wilson fest over at this place jumping back and forth between Stick and Tannon Bombs summertime let’s go you’ve never seen uh you’ve never seen Rushmore i’ve seen Rushmore i’ve seen Tannon Bombs okay yeah so Steve Zizu when we lost you i’m not like that no uh yeah it’s just like you know I’m putting together the Blu-ray collection there’s no Wes Anderson yet you don’t think Rushmore is a rewatchable i think we did it already i don’t think I was on it good you’re going to be on one this summer hopefully we’re planning i might even go to Scot you’re a hard guy to book you know you called to see if you’re in and you’re like just on your way to some strange country it’s going to get real strange this summer can I tell you what I did in India on FanDuel a lot of Pats bets including Mike Vrabel for coach of the year at plus 750 i couldn’t resist pat’s over nine and a half sure pats 5 to1 for the division with Kansas City and Philly okay I’ll parlay that when you were hanging out with guys you’re like I have to go home and hammer this Brael bet yeah i was like “Guys it’s been great i got to go.” Uh Indie does close pretty early though it’s surprising uh I I really like Indie i There’s some things I don’t understand no it didn’t let me double check if that place is still open stanford Steve and I went to Ike and Jonesies one night i think they were like “Hey can we get a beer?” And there were just cups or like grab as many as you want i don’t think there’s a more rasillo city on the planet than indie come on yeah no for for like if you came for a game I think you’d have a great time i have i’ve been to India a million times pacers playoffs no we did uh did the Super Bowl there we did hardcore hardcore basketball fans man it’s our people they’re all there just love basketball stanford Steve and I drove over to Butler to check it out and then it was pretty obvious because there was a rack of balls and the guy was looking at us he’s like “How bad do you want to get a couple shots up?” and it was like insanely bad he’s like “Okay you’re not supposed to but like you can no problem.” Which was a lot different than when we were at UNCC and Roy Williams told me I could get shots up after the practice was over i was like “All right no problem.” And then somebody came over and screamed at me like what are you doing and I was like Roy said it was fine and she was like “Okay.” Turned around that’s all I needed to know that was like the time anytime I was at Eugene like “What are you doing in this?” And I’d be like “Chip said it was fine.” like “Okay that’s a good that’s a good thing to have.” Anyway the point is is that Indie we drove out to go see Tom Green coach uh the Hooers so Vampel and I drove out to Bloomington and we spent the afternoon there got out of there pretty quick so I can’t say that I know Bloomington super well but then I did a bunch of Big 10 championship games we did the Wisconsin win um there was another one for a Pacers playoff game a couple people mentioned it my approval rating is not very high in that state after the college football season so I think I have Indie down back the Pacers thing now that you’ve circled back with the Pacers that I think they come back i want to push back a little bit that it feels like a rillo town because I don’t why just they love sports that’s true real American people yeah no I like that salt of the earth my only criticism is the uh the seno shrimp i don’t like when you’re touting the food and it’s it’s it’s good it’s fine but if it’s going to be like uh like a marketing thing I really want to have my socks knocked off and it’s not there i’m sorry vampel hated it as much as any single person has ever hated anything the St elmo shrimp yeah he cuz I’d had it stanford Steve and I probably got in earlier van Pelt would get there when he needed to get there and then I think we went back again and it really becomes the hang too you know it’s it’s not just the restaurant it’s the hang multiple floors there’s nooks and crannies you go around and Yeah it’s good and no one loves St elmo’s more than you do so Vampel’s sitting there and he he was like we’re watching him about to eat it and he’s looking at us he’s like “What what what’s going to happen is it really hot or something it’s really hot like are you guys [ __ ] with me?” And we were like “Just eat the shrimp dude it’s not that big of a deal.” And he like kind of like halfway through a couple chomps spits it right out was like “This is what is that?” We’re like “It’s horseradish.” You know it’s it’s that’s the whole thing it’s kind of clears you out a little bit he’s like “That’s that’s the dumbest thing ever invented.” He was so mad he’s so mad about it it might have been the first time he didn’t pay for the dinner cuz his thing is he always pays for every dinner no matter what all the time um and I think that night he may have just been like protest i went for drinks there and I ordered a ranch water oh look at you is it Yellowstone it’s tequila for the people listening tequila club soda and lime they brought the ranch water they brought me a glass it was like a triple tequila with a little bottle of club soda next to it and tequila had lime in it i’m like and they’re like “Watch.” And the the waitress said “Watch out for this that’s all tequila.” And I’m like “I ordered a ranch water.” And she’s like “This is how we serve it here just make a giant glass of tequila.” Not the premium some lime in it and then I can pour the club soda in if I want yeah it’s their version of it it’s also called a tequila soda I believe in other places it’s called the don’t drive after you have this I think was the actual actual thing for it but uh it was pretty impressive anyway all right Rillo uh I’ll see you in a week we gota do uh the finals will probably be over by then there’s a chance we’ll be coming on after game seven of the NBA finals a week from now maybe can’t be ruled out you’re the biggest Pacers believe you and Winhor guys are looking at property there trying to I I don’t think it’s going to be a game five for them but it would have to be a game six uh one last awesome run you were just there two days how can you not believe after you were in that building i I Lou Dort psyched me out that’s That’s what happened but uh so we’ll be Sunday night at some point uh anyone anything offensive to you in person no people were great okay indiana’s great just want to uh All right thanks to Eduardo and everybody else behind the scenes as well don’t forget Rewatchable’s coming Tuesday and I think I’m going to have something else tomorrow night so we’ll see anyway bye Russell see you [Music]
The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to react to the Grizzlies trading away Desmond Bane to the Magic, potential Jaren Jackson Jr. and Ja Morant trades, and if this catapults Orlando as contenders in the East (03:04). Then, they delve into the best landing spots for Kevin Durant to be traded to (35:08). Finally, they recap Game 4 of the NBA Finals and if OKC has taken a hold of this series (78:50).
Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Jonathan Frias and Eduardo Ocampo
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39 Comments
Ja is definitely more important to the Grizz, but in no way is he better than Trey Young 💯😂
I was hoping Bill and Ryen would talk about the Bane trade. Great stuff as usual, fellas. Love that Bill slipped in a couple of Patriots comments, couldn't help himself!
The amount of salt and hate from Baby Billy for OKC is wild, trying his hardest to jinx Thunder. Demon work
Did Bill say Robert Sarver for the suns lol?
Bane’s in Orlando, KD’s in limbo—wild summer.
The 3 that SGA made was a direct result of getting those free throws for a touch foul on a shoulder while AC and Dort are mugging ppl at the other end and Haliburton gets smashed into.. Can we be real and admit officiating does change results..
Houston has more leverage than the Suns. No way they give up Jabari, JG and picks for a 37 year old. If they stand pat, they have another year or two to gain experience and then their core is still 24 to 26 with three years of playoff experience. They have the potential to be a top 4 team for the next decade as is. Why mortgage the future for two years max with KD? OKC is going to be great for the next ten years, Rockets need to keep building up young players to complete with OKC in the arms race.
Ja is fine in the West
Ja for Trae would work for both
bill’s camera quality getting worse and worse has to be on purpose at this point
If they didnt have AC they would not win.
Oh no Devers
Could Denver trade for JJJ?
Ringer needs to trade Russillo and four picks for KOC
These people talk about KD like he is a garbage player,
He at this age is top 10 offensive player in the league,
I remember Irvin having 10 suitors with 4 months left in his contract, injured and covid stuff didn’t want to play and still had teams begging for him,
Suns should not fall for this propaganda nonsense in the media to downgrade KD,
He is Kevin F**** Durant y’all know who he is.
Nothing is right for these guys unless it benefits Boston
I think we are all forgetting how good Ja is. KCP is a much cheaper version than Bain now they’re gonna have money to pay Jaron have draft picks for the future and they can develop out a young town other team and maybe even sign somebody else or maybe they’re making a play for Durant
Grizz not tanking, just preparing for second apron in a small market and accepting reality.
Smith green & suns pick for KD is a W for the rockets. If not the suns pick the 10th pick & 1 more rockets 1st round pick. If you’re Houston you do that move. Smith & Jalen aren’t it
The Jaren Jackson Jr. team is Golden State
There is no podcast with Simmons if it doesn't include rusillo.
Story of the playoffs: Personal fouls do not apply to Alex Caruso. He can just do whatever. So he does.
I'm mesmerized by the waves in RR's background.
Trade JJJ to Lakers for Austin Reeves and Dalton Knecht. Then trade Ja to Washington or Brooklyn for the 6th or 8th pick and draft his replacement in Fears.
I think the Lakers are the best landing spot for JJJ mainly because I believe Reddick will get the most out of his rebounding potential, especially while Lebron is there. And they got Luka who’s a rebounding machine anyway.
But Jackson has to absolutely become a better rebounder as 5 rpg for a Star Big is absolutely embarrassing.
green for Laurie
U guys are CRAZY! Still on the Dont have to give up that much for kd train?! WAKE UP dum dums! The bane trade just RAISED the cost of trading for kd! Banes vessel and the 14th pick? U guys are so loony! Also DO BETTER kd isn't wating to leave! The suns are trading him cuz they want to! Your pod is AWFUL with these TRASH takes!!!
NY over Orlando hands down! Why? Jalen Brunson.
4 first round plus cole anthony for bane…wtf..i guess most GM's on crack lol
I see Russillo took the guns out for todays pod.
These teams love paying an exorbitant amount of picks as a price for the 3rd best player on a team. Furthers proofs how rigged the Luka trade was
Forget SAS timeline rant. Just doesn't work having 7 guards with Fox, Castle, Harper all want the ball then Vassell, Branham, Wesley, Champagnie. Fox gotta go, his contract in 3 years will hurt them because any extension will be an overpay.
Ja+KCP+that Suns swap pick for Sabonis, Keegan, and Trey on an expiring?
SGA kills my parlay by 1point in game 3. Gets 2 points in the 4th. Then the bum get 15 in game 4 4th. Can't trust these bums.
Bill recording with a potato again, come on my guy 😂
I think we go after Reeves next. J3 for AR and the picks is a great option. We just need to figure out who will take Ja for a fair price.
We have to rebuild. Reeves would sell out FedEx. He's from 90 miles away. You automatically get the entire state of Arkansas with him.
We're really good at drafting outside the lottery. I'll happily take the Orlando picks. Give me AR and the picks, Ja to Charlotte for all the picks they'll give up and start over.
20 years of consistency is hard. We did that. Time to really rebuild.
Ja Morant to Minnesota 🐺
KD for Sengun 1 for 1
Sorry about Devers
“ I really like Reaves”
Oh just marry him already Bill. That way we don’t have to hear you drool all over Jud Buechler 2.0 in every Podcast.
I'm with Bill on Wes Anderson