How Cleveland Cavaliers Can Navigate NBA Second Apron | Yossi Gozlan Joins Courtside With Cavs on SI
we know that you like throwing your potential Cavaliers trades into the NBA trade machine but will they actually work yosi Goslin of the Third Apron podcast and newsletter is here to break down the Second Apron teach us about it a little bit and of course we’ll have some fun as always on the latest episode of course with the Cavs on SI Man oh man am I excited about today’s episode As always Spencer German Spencer Davies my partner in crime and our special guest today Yosi Glinin of the Third Apron podcast and newsletter Yosi cannot thank you enough for for taking some I know it’s a busy time of year especially with the draft round two today So uh thank you so much for joining us on the show man Thank you
No of course And it’s you know it’s my pleasure Especially with the Cavs we got to work a little overtime to decipher their situation because their their stuff’s confusing
It definitely is And that’s why we’re having you on because the one thing like Spence and I we go back and forth on so many different topics as far as this team is concerned but like there’s always these moments where we start talking about Cap stuff and we’re like “Well yeah they could do this.” And then even Spence who I consider like the basketball expert truly on the show he’s always like “Yeah I just don’t know if I can venture down that path because even I don’t know how that works.” So I think we’re both going to learn some things today I know we’re both very excited Spence Uh I’m glad we’re getting a chance to do this man For sure
Most definitely Especially I mean I already got things that I want to ask right off the bat to Yos But I mean feel like you know pay the favor back a little bit Went on Yosi show about a month ago and now we got him on our so it’s a good thing
Yeah No I love it We love collaborating like this And I guess I’ll start us off Yosi with like the very basic question that I think Oh real quick By the way anybody who’s watching in real time with us live especially on on whether it’s YouTube or Twitter send us questions If you have questions about the second apron if you have questions about the the Cavs Cap situation in particular Yosi will answer them while he’s with us today We’ll certainly get them in a little bit later in the show So do not hesitate to ask any questions that you might have We’re treating this kind of as a a second apron or a a an NBA cap 101 if you will So but I’ll start us off with like the real basic uh bare minimum question of just when it comes to the second apron what are like the most important things that people need to know about it and the restrictions that come with it for a team potentially like the Cleveland Cavaliers well uh let me pull it up I have them all in front of me because there’s a lot I’ve been tweeting out these graphics that I’ve made whenever a team has done a significant move uh you know once the Cavs do something I’ll probably let it out but for the most part I mean I I’ll basically list both apron restrictions since they’re restricted to both So teams over the first apron they got to do 100% salary matching which I think is the most significant thing as far as the Cavs So when you look at some of the trade rumors that they’ve been involved with in recent days like Kevin Durant you know they would have to get to that 54 million But because they’re over the second apron they’re they actually can’t really do that because they need also can’t aggregate players They can’t combine salaries to reach that 54 million which means that they would have to get below the second apron first So instead of like sending out 54 million you actually got to send out like 70 million at the end of the trade uh both to match for Drian and to get below the second apron I think the it would have because they’re like 12 or 13 million over it right now Uh they also cannot uh take uh uh acquire free agents in a sign and trade They cannot send out cash in trades They can’t sign and trade their own free agents to get players back under contract Like they could sign and trade Tai Jerome for example They just wouldn’t be able to get a player back they have to get like picks cash stuff like that instead And they have no form of the mid level So those are the major ones So basically the Cavs unless they get below start getting below these aprons they’re restricted to resigning their own free agents So Ty Jerome Sam Merrill uh their draft picks I don’t know if they I’m not sure if they have any I think they have a second round pick tonight Uh and then actually
and then just minimum signings That’s really all they can do unless they’re trading one of their players uh for cheaper players back in return Those are Yeah those are the restrictions
Okay Yeah Yeah
No Yeah No no no I was just pointing out that we had two picks tonight Uh 49 and 58 But no
I was just giving
No I was giving you the floor next cuz I was I figured we could kind of go like alternate here unless we have a followup So go ahead Yeah I know I didn’t know cuz I
tried to tried to text it I tried to text it to you So I was trying to like make it a thing without making it a thing in the pod and now here we are bringing it to the pod So it’s okay
Oh you’re good man No I just know you had like 20,000 questions for Yosi But I guess the the first thing this is kind of non-CAS related but very relevant to what’s going on in the Eastern Conference And Brad Stevens just had a press conference talking about he didn’t really know what the second apron was really going to present until it actually happened to him And as we see Boston and all the trades they’ve gotten involved in in the last 48 hours moving a ton of talent Christophs Porzingis Drew Holiday and you know kind of just reorganizing things I think a lot of people are seeing these moves and they’re saying “Oh Boston’s being active and they’re like figuring out a way to do things but it’s not necessarily improving their talent.” This is kind of just a reality of the NBA at this point when it comes to Second Apron and trying to be under that so you have more flexibility What do you think of what Boston’s done does that have anything to do with what the Cavs may see coming up and what does it mean for the league overall i think with Boston a lot of it isn’t so much about the money I think there is a like part of it is well Tatum’s now hurt so they’re not going to be back in it for like another two years How good are Porzingis Drew Holiday to an extent Dererick White are how good are these guys going to be when they come back uh so since like like this team they put together really only had like a two-year window now Tatum’s injuries hurt like it only makes sense for them to do what they’re doing So with the Cavs I think it’s different where they’re going to have a very expensive team because uh not necessarily like the aprons but now there’s a new luxury tax system It’s going to be more expensive the deeper in the tax you go Uh so now I think as I look into it I think they’re I was thinking early on they might spend they might look to save money That’s something we discussed Spencer when I had you on the show last month I was thinking maybe they look to trade Jared Allen early Maybe they look to trade a Cororo try to get below the second apron But you know as as the water you know as the smoke settled we hear more about the Cavs injuries Darius Garland was basically like playing with a major injury Everyone was hurt Like it it’s hard to they basically had no chance when everything all the injuries happened at once So I think especially now that the East is even more open than it was a month ago I think the Cavs are probably going to be motivated to spend as much as they are With Garland’s injury I would I think now there’s a better chance uh because he’s going to miss the start of the season they’ll actually bring back Jerome So I’ve kind of changed my mind on that since we last spoke And I think they’re going to look to spend as much as possible this year and next year try to win a championship within these next two years Uh maybe after that they can they might consider uh looking to take a little bit of a step back Don Donovan Mitchell will have his uh player option coming up So maybe there’s a decision to be made there Um because the roster is going to get even more and more expensive as time goes on So I think that’s kind of the way to look at it now They’re going to go for it as much as they can these next two years and figure it out later once they cross that bridge
Just to clarify we talk about this team as go as as if they’re going to be a second apron team Is that simply based on Yoshi the fact that like right now you’re still in the 2024 25 league year until the new league year officially starts like they’re not a they’re not a second apron team yet until the second until the the new league year begins Am I am I correct on that
yes and no Like right now they are like below the tax and the aprons but when if they’re trying to do a trade now it has to be something that also works next year It’s kind of complicated but they can’t circumvent the cap and do aggregation increase your salary in a in a trade anyway like that They they’ve added mechanisms I’ve explained it uh on my newsletter I did a whole Twitter thread about it in regards to the Desmond Bane trade because there was an element of that So in all like even though they’re yeah technically below the tax below the aprons uh no they are very much actually operating as if they are above the aprons right now So any trade they do has to be something that uh also fits their their salary cap structure for next year
Okay And as a as a quick followup to that because you mentioned you can’t aggregate salaries when you’re a second apron team So you can’t like if the Cavs wanted to combine Jared Allen and uh and just theoretically uh like Dean Wade or something like that you can’t do that in a trade package What are the ways around that is it simply what Boston did where it’s like you shed the guys of these guys first and then trade the one player that you’re trying to trade or are there once you get other teams involved like what could that look like as well like what are the ways you kind of work around that
i mean they just have to if they want to open up the if they want to get out of those restrictions they’re going to have to save money first Now it’s not the type of thing where they have to exclusively do two separate trades where they get under the the second apron first and then do an aggregation type trade They can do it where it’s like a maybe a big three four team trade Let’s say there’s someone they have they want to bring in that requires I don’t know just as an example combining Aoro and Wade So you know let’s say they want to bring like a $15 million player As long as they at the end of the trade get below the second apron as well which means they’re also sending out another expensive piece then they can also fulfill that trade which usually requires you know being below the second apron So it’s all about where they are at the conclusion of the trade
So along those lines sorry Spence real quick Um so the way I’m sort of picturing is like they have to they have to have both those trades already in place though It can’t be like well we’re making this trade and then we’re making this trade like three days later It kind of has to be like they all get agreed to at the same time essentially
Oh no no no I’m You could do one or the other Uh Okay I mean you could agree to a trade right now They could agree to a trade that requires them to have done you know reduce their payroll first uh they just they but I’m saying that they can either do like the salary reduction trade and then do the aggregation trade or they can kind of combine it all in once as long as at the end of the trade they are below the applicable apron that
so the only thing you can’t do is do the aggregation trade first They have to do a trade first that’s going to allow them to get under the cap and then you can do the aggregation trade essentially
or they could or they could do one mega trade that gets them under it Well they could do one that does both at the same time Yeah it’s harder but technically they could do that
I got you All right go ahead Spence
So when I heard you earlier in talking about how the Cavs are gonna
spend what they need to to get to that next level because of where the Eastern Conference is now what is your idea of them kind of going allin especially if they are kind of hampered by the Second Apron stuff
well I mean I don’t know what more allin they could do I think their roster is already pretty set They have a very I think they prove that you know winning 64 games they have a really good deep team I just think they need to the most for the most part just run it back and like I I don’t really envision them looking to save money now I so like they are already are kind of like all in in a way Now it’s more so how many you know how um will you bring back one or both of Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill uh I mean they’re already gonna spend like $350 million most likely this year if not more So I it’s just about if they keep the team that’s like as allin you could get
Okay No that makes sense And what what would you say moves on the margins and I think we talked about this at length too uh when we went on your episode Like what do those kind of constitute to you is that trying to like you said they’re not trying to save money but say they’re not happy with what their ninth and tenth man are getting them Like is that something that you could see them improving that part of their roster and maybe not necessarily the core and the top players i Yes I would guess that if like like Aoro for example let’s say they haven’t moved off from him yet and into the seeding into the season he’s more or less producing the same he was last year I would imagine they’ll try to move him not try to maybe bring in someone a little cheaper uh to so you save a lot of money there That might be it realistically Uh I think at this point I don’t really see them trading Allen unless they get a lot of positive value in return So yeah it would probably be more marginal stuff like which end of bench guys are more expendable
And it sounds like that’s something you think is fair especially after we watched Indiana and Oklahoma City get to the title game and the title series and they are boasting guys that you know are deep eight to nine to 10 guys deep And it seems like this is the direction of the NBA now whereas maybe 10 years ago it was about big three and then you could surround them with you know those minimum contracts and not have to necessarily be so into development It looks like a lot of these teams are realizing look if we’ve got young talent that we know are on rookie contracts and can contribute now that’s going to save us a lot of the time that we need and also save us uh from having to move our best players who we’re paying a ton of money to Yeah Uh and they’ve done a good job at that getting players on the margins in the past few years with Tyerum with Sam Merrill So I was thinking part uh when we spoke last month I was thinking that maybe they would let those guys go so they can elevate uh you know Jaylen Tyson Craig Porter Jr And to an extent yeah I think they will look to give those guys a bigger role but uh we’ll again we’ll see who if they keep both Tai Jerome and Samuel but I think they’re also going to look work really hard try to find more players uh on the margins for the minimum whether it’s a second round picks some guys they can get on a two-way uh they’re going to need depend they’re going to need to find a couple more rotation players to be able to uh fill in some roles as the team gets more expensive and I mean they’ve had success doing it so I’m sure they’ll find some more gems in the future you know you talked earlier about the the mid-level exception um and how the Cavs is a second apron team I believe is what you said is that they won’t have that because they’re going to be a second apron team um can you just like just start from scratch with level exception It’s it’s one of those details of the cap that I I understand like once the money’s there that they can allocate it in different ways but I I I sometimes I think I I get confused with it in terms of what qualifies the team for it the different levels to it based on where you are like if you’re a tax team an apron team etc and then how they can sort of divvy that money up if they’re using it in in in multiple transactions or just one
By the way I try I’m trying to share my screen And I want to show all the restrictions Do you guys see that
we do not
You don’t see it in the bottom So what you would have to do
Oh I I see it now Yes Yes Yes Yes
Yeah Here we go Now we’re talking All right Sorry What was the question again because I want I wanted to get this out for you guys
Yeah No this is awesome Uh we appreciate this No So my question was just about the mid-level exception in general and like walk me through like I’m a a 5-year-old I guess like where the mid-level except like how the teams qualify for the mid-level exception the different levels of the mid-level exception that you that teams can get and um also I guess like how you can allocate that money like can it be used across multiple transactions or is it just one single transaction
so the new CBA has basically implemented four different spending tiers Uh you got the lowest which is a cap space team They get the room level which is 8.8 million this year On the Nets and Grizzlies should have that Then you’ve got where most of the league is you got the teams that are below the aprons they get the full tax mid level that 14.4 And then if you’re above the first apron but below the second you get the 5.7 million So that’s teams like the Knicks most likely Uh and then you’ve got the Cavs and the Suns Only teams right now over the second apron who get no form of the mid-level which again goes back to what I was saying they’re basically restricted When you look at all these restrictions that they’ve got you very hard to pull off trades uh no mid-level exception uh or by annual You basically are limited to resigning your own guys minimum players and your draft picks That’s good to know Um I appreciate the the dumb down version for me because I like I said that one goes over my head I I think like for me so you talked a little bit about like the Kevin Durant trade earlier What would that have had to look like if the Cavs were actually going to pull something like that off like what would how would they have had to work a deal like that to to actually bring Kevin Durant to Cleveland probably Uh well first you’re going to have to for sure trade one of the top three guys which is you know between Mitchell Mobly and Garland Let’s say it was Garland Uh so they can get to um Durant’s number by doing Garland and Stru So that’s the 100% match and aggregation but then they’d still need to shed like another four like 15 million I think so they can get under the second apron as well So the aggregation would be allowed So that’s probably like Jared Allen or DeAndre Hunter just to be safe So there and also have enough space to get the roster with enough players below the second apron So I haven’t done the full math on on what the Kevin Durant two calves trade would look like but I’m guessing at a minimum it would be Garland Hunter and Stus That would probably be the easiest way for them to actually make it work Um a lot
Yeah for sure
Yeah I mean I I don’t think the Cavs would have wanted to do something like that I mean it sounded like to your point on you know doing multiple things at once multiple trades at once they would have had to find a way to package something together to get there but they also would have had to get under the cap with a couple other or under the second with a couple other trades or moves or whatever Um and I know from the conversations or the reporting that’s been had it sounds like it was actually the Suns who like called the Cavs and they were offering some maybe picks with Kevin Durant as well So that would have been interesting Maybe even the Cavs pick that they now have from the Jazz that they would have given back So that’s all very interesting obviously as well I guess I’m curious like as I like I led the show talking about like there’s so many fans out there who get excited they the off season’s here they start thinking about how they can make the team better and they just open up the NBA trade machine and start spitballing ideas of like hey let’s put Darius Garland in a package for this guy or let’s put Jared Allen and and Dean Wade or Max Truce together and get this guy and it works in the in the trade machine but with everything you’ve laid out we understand that that’s not always the case So I guess I’m curious like what are some of the most ridiculous trades that you have seen so far this off season maybe specific to the Cavs but you can even go down a path of like some other teams as well that that that would just make no no sense whatsoever would never actually work but that people were trying to sort of sell as as a possibility I don’t know I I honestly can’t remember I haven’t seen too many but I I’ve seen a lot of uh people co you know which uh who cover the calves they’ve done a pretty good job with uh you know educating each other on what can and can’t be done explaining why that trade doesn’t work So I guess just you know trading for a max level guy like a Durant or a Giannis that’s the one that where people I think haven’t fully grasp just how much money is required to come out from the Cavs not just for the salary match but because they’re above the second apron I have one thing too So as an outsider looking in and I’m always on this with Spence talking about how more of the national media and the fans that are looking from the outside in appreciate what the Cavs have going on more than what people here locally do So as just a completely innocent bystander what do you think about where the Cavs are in their steps as an organization to get towards that top tier i mean I think they’re already in that top tier I think they proved it last year They just got injured I I think there is obviously some stuff to be concerned about A lot of people point out to like you know do do they maybe they lack toughness stuff like that So there are things they could work on on the margins to address those those needs But you know winning 64 games is nothing to gloss over and they should I think in my mind even without seeing how the offseason play out played out I think they’re in a tier of their own in the East when you consider all the other injuries going on and as long as they’re healthy I think they should make the finals Um I think they got most of their work done these past few years doing the Donovan Mitchell trade uh being fortunate enough to select Deon Mobley and Darius Garland and just doing just some nice savvy moves along the way trading uh what ended up being a pretty late first for Jared Allen Uh signing Max Drew getting DeAndre Hunter for basically just uh a couple expendable role players Like they’ve done the work I think Um I think they just got to run it back really and just uh give it another go and hope for good health I think a lot of people are also just kind of overlooking the fact that they did get DeAndre Hunter at the deadline last year and they only had him for a few months and he’s going to have a full training camp a full summer with the team now
I I want to know what you think about that move because I feel like that’s being looked at as ah you know they got the wing they were looking for but he’s also just kind of this role player whereas he was a sixman of the year candidate This is a guy that can drop 20 on you any night And he also has extremely extremely long arms and a lot of length and and I feel like this guy could absolutely be one of those those those core type of players on this team in addition to the they have on the squad right now So I I just want to know your opinion on that cuz it it’s really hard getting traded mid-season and just kind of picking up and going Uh when you actually have a full off season and a full training camp with a team that really changes things And I think DeAndre especially at 27 28 years old being just getting into the prime of his career I think could be a real real big contributor
So I want to relate it to the Knicks just because the Knicks went through something similar with Carl Anthony Towns getting him on the eve of free agency really overhauling that core uh last off season and they were able to go pretty far despite all that in like a very thin bench And I just bring him up also because I think right now they’re the number two team in the East So probably biggest challenge to the Cavs at this moment But with the Cavs that’s a great point again that applies to DeAndre Hunter He’s going to have a training camp to get a little more integrated And you can also say continuity as well They have the continuity advantage in general This core has now been together for three full seasons Uh the long they’re just going to keep getting better and better the more they play together They just went through just one season with Kenny Atkinson who overhauled their offensive system Uh that’s like another big factor Continuity they’ve got that’s going to be probably like their biggest uh addition if if that makes sense to the offseason Just more time together That stuff matters
The fans aren’t going to like you for that one Yo they started out on your side They started out on your side and as soon as they heard that they’re going to be like “Oh no He’s a homer like the rest of them even though you live out in LA Um Yosi I’m curious cuz I I know you talked about running it back and and trying to re resign and bring back guys like Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill There’s been a lot said in regards to Ty Jerome specifically and how the Cavaliers would bring him back There’s not a lot of teams that can really offer him and and it’s you know Tai Jerome I don’t think is like a premier potential free agent right now Like there’s other guys that I think teams are going to prioritize first but there’s only a few teams that can really offer him more money than the Cavs Now the Cavs have the the mid-level exception the 14 what a little over 14 million whatever it is I’m assuming that is from like this past you said once you hit the second apron you don’t get that mid-level exception So that would be like next year they wouldn’t get that mid-level exception Am I reading that correctly
no Cavs don’t have any mid-level exception now
Oh okay Okay So they can’t offer him that then is what you’re saying Uh with Tai with Ty Jerome they have his bird rights
That’s what it is Okay Okay Yeah His early bird rights technically you give him up to like four for 61
Um yeah that that’s which is kind of equivalent to the mid-level Yeah
Okay That’s that makes more sense I got you now Okay Um so along those
Yeah Go I’ll just I I’ll just say like if they resign him to something in that amount like then they’re probably pushing their total roster expenses to like around450 million where their tax penalty would be even bigger than their payroll So I do feel like there is going to be somewhat of a line when it comes to this stuff uh just because at some point the you’re you’re not getting that much more value per dollar spent There’s going to be diminishing return So then I if they bring back Jerome I probably get the idea they’re going to look to save some money probably from like an Aoro salary dump or something like that Yeah Um so if they do bring back say like a a a Tai Jerome for example um I guess like I had a now I lost my trans I had a question I completely forgot what it was now I was listen I was
I can fill I can fill in if you want to think about it I can fill in if you want to think about how Tai Jerome could kind of get like the mid-level type money Actually you know what that’s what I was going to say was who are the teams that can you know compete with the amount of money that the Cavs can potentially offer with that with his early bird rights
Yes
Um so the Kings they kind of jump out They need a guard I think after last night maybe not so much I was thinking Orlando but now they drafted Jace Richardson I feel like I’m not like too deep into the draft You guys can correct me if I’m wrong Seems like kind of a similar player type So I they maybe they’re good on there Um the I mean the Troy just for the opportunity they got some money to spend if they want to bring him in especially if they lose Shrutder The Hawks um they have some trade exceptions The full mid level they can do they can bring him in Uh you know they depending on what they do if maybe they don’t bring back Carous Vert they’re going to need a guard Uh there’s there’s a couple teams uh the Hornets the Nets Bulls like they all have the full mid-level and enough space to use the whole thing The Clippers um we’ll we’ll see There’s a techn There’s theoretically a lot of teams that could make a big offer for him
Are is it a possibility for Ty Derome or Sam Merrell to be signed and traded is is that something that’s
It is Okay Yeah they just wouldn’t be able to bring a player back So if they’re signed and trading them then they’re just getting uh draft picks Now I think with Sam the only thing with Tai Jerome is because uh the cap um because he only has early bird rights he’s capped at like something around a $14 million starting salary Uh if you’re a team interested in Jerome you could probably beat that with the full midle in which case not much incentive for a team to sign and trade for Jerome So I think they might have a harder time sign and trading him because the whole point of a sign and trade is that that um one of the points of a sign and trade is then by doing that you’re able to probably beat the market on a particular free agent because by structuring a trade you could get creative with how much more money you can pay the guy With Sam Merrill he’s got full bird rights So it’s a little different They can uh I I think they might have a better chance sign and trading him Um if another team just because uh yeah if another team just wants Drew they could probably just try to sign him out right with the full mid-level
I found it interesting when you were talking earlier about the tax penalty being potentially bigger than the actual cost of the team
How beneficial is it and this might be just an obvious question but to have an owner like Dan Gilbert who’s able to foot that bill and say “Screw it You guys spend whatever you want.” And can that come back to bite you or is that something that if that continues throughout even when they have this expensive of a roster that it’s just dependent on who’s really uh in charge of your team
i I think that’s an a competitive advantage uh for the Cavs and he’s he’s proven it in the past The second time LeBron came around they were in the tax every year They had one of the biggest tax penalties of the time And I they clearly shown a willingness to spend and that’s great for the Cavs that they’re going to keep this level of depth and probably for multiple years spend whatever it takes to sustain this team that they put together I’m curious
Yeah it wouldn’t be it wouldn’t really bite them back as long it just as long as he’s okay with the money there’s it wouldn’t really bite him back in any way
Okay I was just curious because I remember seeing the stuff with Leob you know a couple years and and that was always just kind of on my mind Yeah I think that is to your point Yosi like a a pretty good advantage for the Cavs that they have an owner willing to do those things and pay into the tax and and all that I’m curious like as you think about the the second apron and we’re seeing the early effects of it and Spence you brought up you brought up the comments um from who’ you say it was that Brad Stevens Yeah Um and how he mentioned you know he wasn’t really prepared for what this was going to look like How like in the future how do you think teams are going to navigate the second apron moving forward like is it going to be what the Celtics just did where it’s like you get there and you just start shedding is it going to be people start like I guess what I’m trying to say is are people going to start to have more foresight on the second apron where they’re doing stuff in year years of advance of even getting there or do you think it’ll be like they’ll just max out their team to the point where they get to that second apron and then they have to start making decisions so with the Celtics they didn’t have the full extent of the knowledge of what this what the new CBA was going to look like as they were putting the team together Yeah It was like right as the CBA was getting put together So they didn’t really have the like no team really knew how to plan for this Um now there is it depends what the thing about the second apron It seems more like kind of like like a like a like a trendy word now where that’s kind of the word that when people hear it’s like okay this is what’s stopping this is what’s like hurting teams It’s not where it’s more so restricting teams The thing that’s like hurting teams is that the new tax penalty which is like yeah if you’re in the second apron that means you’re really deep in the tax which means now you’re going to be paying way more money than you would have in the previous tax system And that’s what’s put Boston in the situation where especially with the Tatum injury and not it going as far as they did where it just doesn’t make sense to spend all this money So that’s where it’s more applicable to the Cavs where you’ve uh one how much money do you want to spend like you’re going to spend money but is there a line you’re going to have over the years how much what level of success will justify how much you are willing to spend the other thing is the only penalty you get for being above the second apron is getting your draft pick uh seven years in the future frozen So you wouldn’t be able to trade it which is not really that big a deal because then you can uh there’s a way to get out of that if you stay out of the second apron long enough The bigger penalty is that and I might be getting the how I might be explaining it wrong I don’t have how exactly it is but I think if you are in the second apron in like three of the following four years then that original frozen pick then drops to the end of the first round So that’s where you
That’s just like a that that’s like the you’re I know you said you didn’t have the exact wording but like that’s if you’re in that span of years leading up to the year that your pick is frozen you’re saying then it would drop to the end of the first round
So So for this year the Cavs they’re probably going to be over the second apron That means their 2033 pick will be frozen So then if they’re over the second apron again next year then the 2034 pick will be frozen If they’re over the second apron a third year in a row then that 23 pick would then drop to the end of the first round
So what teams could do to try So So that might start uh force teams to kind of strategize uh their a couple years into the future of which years they’ll want to stay over the Second Apron uh how many years in a row so because if the Cavs care about that then they’ll probably want to uh get below the second apron two years from now and for the 2728 season And that’s where I was talking about Donovan Mitchell as that player option Yeah
Now OKC they’re in this fortunate position where they just won a championship without paying the tax they’re going to not pay the tax next year then they’re going to pay tax in the following years but maybe they try to stay below the second apron So that’s why they’re probably going to have a pretty long window But let’s say they do want to go over the second apron a bunch of years They have so many extra draft picks where they it might not really matter if they if their draft pick eventually drops the end of the first round but for a team like the Cavs who actually have a draft pick deficit that might matter Now there’s a little bit of a like a conflict of interest where you know like ex working in the NBA is like there’s generally it’s not on average not the longest like tenure type thing So a front office can just look at this and say “Well I’m not I’m not probably gonna have the job I don’t care about this drafting seven years from now It’s not my money I don’t give a damn.”
Uh so that’s something that could like impact like a future front office Um so that’s kind of where ownership kind of needs to step in and decide okay well what’s best for me seven eight years down the line So
Uh yeah we’ll see I I would guess for sure these next two years Cavs spend as much as possible and we’ll see after that
As as a followup um and I do want to remind people again if you have any questions for Yoshi send them in the comments We’re going to get to those here coming up momentarily But as as a followup to that point specifically the comments the other day from Josh Kroni owner of the the Nuggets who mentioned like this crazy scenario where they have they feel like they have to trade Nicola Joic because the wrong player gets hurt and they’re a second apron team and so now all of the sudden they have to make this move Um now first of all we don’t have to comment on this those comments specifically because I think it’s a little ridiculous Like if that’s your situation you’d get rid of anybody except Nicole Yogic and you just start fresh But regardless do you think the second apron in its current form is like here to stay or when the next CBA negotiations come up and I think it’s 2030 will they change it to make it less punitive or just get rid of it alto together potentially how do you see that kind of playing out
so two things to answer the basic question I think that it’s probably not going to change that much Maybe there’s some things that get modified like the future draft pick thing I think that’s kind of absurd Um but um so but you’d be surprised like a lot of the owners that like a lot of owners wanted this to happen Uh even some ones that were that have spent a lot of money in the past that are with the bigger markets
Uh like they were hoping a lot of people were hoping this kind of cur spending at the top might like kind of add more parody in regards to some of the higher spenders A lot of those higher spenders wanted this Uh now as to that Yokic comment this kind of goes back to my point where I’m saying well I think people are trying to use the second apron as a word to just it’s kind of like this boogeyman like oh the second apron And I feel like that comment about Jokic was just kind of like maybe in a way trying to let fans know hey we’re not we might not do anything this summer And it and it’s because and he’s kind of using the second apron as an exc as like a way to like
temper expectations
to kind of like justify why they might not do anything Uh because the kind the thing of the Nuggets yeah they are close to the second apron but if they go over the second apron they’re not going to force them to trade Jokic So they just don’t have any draft picks to trade They can’t really they have no flexibility They can’t really do anything So I think it’s kind of his the owner’s way of just being of saying something like well we’re not going to do anything and if we do something crazy then we get in the second apron and you know what that means So I think it would just something to kind of like
let fans know hey we’re not going to do anything this summer which I I think it’s I don’t think they’re really going to be able to do much anyways
Suspense Anything else before we get to the comments just just a general question because I think a lot of people point to the negotiations and CJ McCollum and saying how they you know killed contracts and whatnot and I I I just want to know like the aprons in general what is the motivation behind that and do you think it’s working because I feel like a lot of the the quote unquote middle class of the NBA with those like between 10 to$18 million deals you’re not seeing a whole lot of those as much and you’re seeing a lot more the super maxes and the max extensions and then kind of the lower tier um towards the the the bottom of the rosters happening a lot more frequently now And I I I just want to get your take on that because we you know we were used to seeing like guys make you know annually 12 to 14 million and they’d be like the fifth or sixth best player on the team and that’s no longer the case anymore It seems I think it’s still kind of early to tell if if the this new apron system is is uh doing its intended effect because we saw the Knicks last year get around it when they traded for CAT They weren’t in theory supposed to be able to increase their payroll because they were above the apron and then they just signed and traded a bunch of guys to inflate the outgoing amount Um so I and then so all it really has done is find make teams find another way but then to get away to get uh around the fact that like some teams can’t increase your payroll You could just get around that by making getting a third team involved So now more multi- teamam trades
So a lot of loopholes
Yeah Now so as far as like getting certain trades done I don’t think it’s it’s uh really making much of a difference I do think again because of the new the new luxury tax system how it’s gonna be even more expensive I think for uh it it’s gonna have done a good job at shortening a team’s uh championship window where this Celtics team they just put together they had two years and that’s it Uh maybe they could have had a third if Tatum was healthy If they made it to the third round they would have gone for another year of this Uh but I think now this we’re for sure going to see a lot shorter windows of like a nice core together where maybe in previous years like you could see a team uh for like three to five years You think about like the Warriors the Cavs from last decade the Heat from last decade Maybe that goes down to like two to three years unless you’re the Thunder I think they’re going to have like five years at least because they have of picks too Yeah That Knicks situation was interesting So you’re saying if it’s like if I’m a player and I’m a free agent of the Knicks and they can sign me for 12 million and nobody else can they sign me for the 12 million then flip me to somebody else so that they can bring back more salary in a trade Is that but that’s basically how they incre like they worked around increasing their their their payroll for the last season Oh so so they were able to do that with their own free agents What they what happened was they
Yeah I was using myself as an example there but I’m saying like they basically because they could offer more to their own free agents than another team They just signed them and then traded them somewhere else and that by default allowed them to increase the amount of money Am I am I understanding that correctly
only uh their own free agents They had a bunch of guys that like expired on two-way minimum guys Uh so uh yeah they’re allowed to do that uh with Yeah because it was their own free agents not they can’t just be anybody Yeah got you Okay Um all right we’ll go to the comments We have a few here Uh I did think it was funny that right as we were talking about Ty Jerome and his contract situation Ty Jerome Muse actually shared our stream So we appreciate you Ty Jerome Muse Uh but Mel Burke Jr.’s ers asked opinions on salary dump of Aoro and Wade and look to fully put Porter Tyson and maybe Ammani in the rotation I mean I think Aoro makes sense I would probably keep Wade I think he’s really good for the Cavs I don’t think you’re going to save that much I don’t think like the the cost savings that you get from uh getting off Wade is going to be worth the production that he brings I think the biggest part right now the Cav uh Wade’s extension eligible So I’m sure they’re going to be trying to negotiate that If the Cavs could get him on a number that they like then go ahead and keep him uh if I don’t really see him as good as he’s been getting that much more than what he’s making But if for whatever reason uh he’s you know he’s trying to push for more maybe you consider trading him But I think at that case just take him to free free agency and I’m sure they could bring him back for a good rate later But uh Isaac Aoro especially now that they brought in Hunter uh Strus has held up being really good for them for two years in a row Maybe Jaylen Tyson is ready to take the next step Uh yeah I think the situation with Aoro has drastically changed within the last 12 months where I would totally understand if they uh dumped him and they would save a lot of money which could offset the costs of keeping Tairo and also with Dean Wade knowing their big man situation I think is also very applicable to that because that’s probably more important and has a little bit more significance than Okoro who’s playing the two flash three where the Cavs have a ton of players So that’s also I think a big part of the difference between those two
Well Spence you know I want to see more uh more DeAndre Hunter and Dean Wade on the court together So that would uh that would get rid of that gone
Also it would not be a courtside with the Cavs on SI podcast if we did not get asked about Ammani Bates I want him to play I I would love to see him get on that floor but he was an injury issue last year had to work through that and then get through the ranks and still eligible to be a two-way player but it’d be his last year for the Cavs to be able to do that So we’ll see what happens with Ammani but I’m pulling for them Always
death taxes and Ammani Bates questions Those are always on the docket Uh last one here in the comments section What is the maximum each of you would offer Tai Jerome i think this is actually a pretty interesting question because we all know how brilliant he was during the regular season but Spence as you pointed out a number of times like he just did he wasn’t a good matchup in in certain instances with guys that were defending him in that series against the Pacers But we can go around the horn here Um whoever wants to start with what they would think is like a a reasonable offer for for Tairo 16.5 to 17.5 Next person
Okay Uh
you’re saying annually annually Yes Uh well they wouldn’t be able to give him that Um the early bird the most they can start him at is like I want to say it’s like 13.7 So it’s basically like an average of 15 a year with the raises I wouldn’t be surprised if he if the Cavs can get him back on a little less than that
Okay
Last year we saw almost no free agents get the full mid-level We saw DeAnthony Melton get it but just for one year Um I think Dvenenzo two years ago was the last free agent to get the full four-year mid-level exception with the Knicks I don’t there’s less money to go around So also for guys like Nel Alexander Walker Dennis Rutder just some of the top midlevelish guys and then Tai’s in that category as well I feel like we might get a repeat a of last summer where we saw guys like Derek Jones Naji Marshall get a little less in the full mid level Uh I could be wrong Maybe these guys do get the full amount but my instinct is that the Cavs could potentially get him back at a little less than the maximum amount he’s getting which would probably then pay him like 13 14 million a year
Yeah Yeah I mean listen I I think if if the I do think the playoffs are going to tarnish some of the way that people feel about him at least in the the eye the public or the fans um in terms of like what they think he should get I understand there’s teams out there as you laid out Yosi that can probably pay him more but I if they can get him back on like that in that 13 million range and and and who knows like he may be willing to take a little bit less and and I I I’m not saying he will because I think while you can and he had a tremendous season but maybe if he’s happy in Cleveland and he thinks there’s a chance to win a championship and he’s got a friend here in DeAndre Hunter he’s okay with that number So if they can get it back for that that amount I think that’s pretty fair and reasonable and obviously that would help the Cavs out a little bit as well with their their finances But man this was this was awesome Uh Yosi some great insight I appreciate you um you know explaining things to me like I I I have no idea what I I I’m looking at because sometimes I need that when it comes to the cap stuff in the NBA But um I I feel like I learned a lot I feel like this was an informative conversation Hopefully the listeners felt the same way because I do think the second apron and everything that comes with it and how teams navigate the cap is is a constant sort of you know it’s it’s it goes over a lot of people’s heads I think that are just casual NBA fans especially And so to get this insight and get get a better read on it all I think is is awesome So I I can’t thank you enough for joining us today man Thank you
No of course You’re welcome I I think the best way to simplify the Cavs can’t really do anything Don’t expect them to do anything I like to the point baby
I was going to say I like that as a tagline and get out of here Yosi we’ll definitely do this again sometime man Maybe if there’s a move that is made we can talk about it or something like that But in the meantime man keep up the good work Again you can follow Yosi at his handle there Yosi Goolin um or Goslin excuse me Uh he of course is the
that’s actually it’s actually more correct the way you just said it
Is it is it Goland i’m sorry I’m sorry
The Hebrew way that that’s No no it’s actually more correct than Hebrew but it’s fine I always go Oh man I’ve just butchered everything today It’s okay Um Third April podcast and of course his uh his newsletter as well so insightful when it comes to this cap stuff and and we’re so grateful he gave us some time today We hope you enjoyed today’s episode Spence any final thoughts
yeah I just wanted to give Yosi a good chance here to talk about the sports business classroom out in Las Vegas because that’s where summer league is going to be and he’s always a big part of that experience as well Yeah I will be in summer league from the 12th through the 19th for uh also to be involved with sports business classroom It’s a uh program for learning about certain aspects of the industry whether you want to be like a scout uh get into a front office or in the uh uh salary cap or be an agent or be in media Uh they have different they have people uh professionals from all different facets teaching about it I will be involved with the salary cap program So I think there’s still a couple spots available So uh you could check out sportsbusclassroom.com see if there is any Um and yeah that’s basically the program Other than that make check out my newsletter and podcast third apron A lot of salary cap analysis there I’m sure when the Cavs do if they do something I will react to it And follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky My name Yosi Goslin I am giving some instant salary cap analysis on each transaction as they happen uh best time of year to follow me and even have me on notifications I’m going to subscribe to the newsletter myself when we get done here So I can promise you that And if I was going to summer league I was I was hoping to make it work I’d be I’d be jumping in that class without without a second thought So um again big thanks to Yosi If you liked what you heard today if you like what Spence and I produce on this on this podcast regularly please hit that subscribe button wherever it is that you get your podcast And of course at the Cavaliers on SI YouTube channel we’ll continue to put out some good stuff over there during the offseason We might have some stuff as soon as tomorrow because have a couple picks tonight We’ll see what they do with them and we might be having some introductory press conferences So stay tuned for all that In the meantime we appreciate you jumping in with us We appreciate Yosi and keep on following along with all things Cleveland Cavaliers with the Cleveland Cavaliers on SI
It’s easy to throw hypothetical trades into the NBA trade machine and see if they work. In reality, though, things like the NBA’s second apron restrict what teams like the Cleveland Cavaliers can actually do this offseason.
NBA salary cap savant Yossi Gozlan joins the show to discuss the nuances of the league’s cap and second apron and how the Cavaliers can navigate some potential cap restrictions to improve the team this offseason. Are there trades available? What kind of moves may we see?
Also, with Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill’s future undecided, what salary could each be looking at, and could either end up staying with the wine-and-gold?
Don’t miss Gozlan’s incredible insight alongside Spencer German and Spencer Davies, who discuss all of that and more on the latest episode of Courtside with Cavs on SI.
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