Can the Trail Blazers offseason already be declared a success?
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You can Venmo this or you can Venmo that. You can Venmo this. The Venmo Mastercard is issued by the Bank and AA pursuant to license by Mastercard International Incorporated. Card may be used everywhere Mastercard is accepted. Minimal purchase restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want, like that dream house or ride, is a great feeling. That’s why the State Farm personal Price Plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling just another way to save with a personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts, and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Hello and welcome to the Oregonian sports podcast. I am Bill Orum joined by Brena Green as always. Brena, I’m dealing with some something some kind of tickle in my throat. My voice isn’t uh isn’t quite where it normally is, which means that the amount of passion I want to put behind this first thing may not come across as robustly as you might normally expect. Did someone have too much fun at their uh their conference this past weekend?
No, absolutely not. Um, so we’re going to try this.
Okay. What did I tell you about DeAndre Aton? What did I say? I mean, for all intents and purposes is that he shouldn’t be on the team, which I don’t disagree. I never disagreed with that. I said,
“You say, DeAndre Aton, here is your $35 million. Enjoy a a gap year in the Bahamas and then you can be a free agent.” They took it one step further and they just paid him to go away, which is great. It’s a great day for the Blazers.
Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s been reported that it was DA’s side that asked out. I think um I personally would be pretty shocked if he goes anywhere other than the Lakers at this point who desperately need a center. Um but uh I mean it says something that the Blazers were like, “Oh, you you want to just go and oh okay, sure, great.” Like like you know, most teams would be like, “Can we try to trade you and get some sort of assets out of this?” But that was never gonna happen. Um, it was it was a very very uh it’s not it’s not a secret if it’s well known. It was very well known that the trade market for DeAndre was uh less than ideal and that was that. So, do I still think that the trade that they pulled off uh two balls ago was worth it? Yes, cuz they got Tmani. But um yeah, I mean, you know, another uh quote unquote era done. I will miss his locker room sound bites. That is the thing I will miss the most about one DeAndre Aton. Your thoughts? Um, well, one, a buyout doesn’t happen without both sides being pretty excited about it happening. So, I, you know, I I think the Blazers were one of two things.
Um, they were I I So, I didn’t see I didn’t have buyout for DA on my bingo card,
but that now that we’ve had a little time to reflect on it, it does seem like it was the obvious outcome here.
Yeah. Yeah, because even if you were committed to just writing out his contract and letting the money come off the books in 2026 and, you know, getting that $35 million in cap relief just by letting him become a free agent, you still had to deal with him for the next year. And like, what do you do with him as a member of your roster?
Yeah.
He was, for all intents and purposes, the fourth or fifth most important center on their roster.
Yep.
And the highest paid player on the team. Those things do not align. And so the other option probably would have been just to bench him and take him out of the rotation. And I don’t know how DeAndre Aton would have handled that. I don’t know how that would have gone over. And so it is possible like, oh yeah, this came from his side. That could have come after he was told that he should not expect to play
next year. I mean, I’m obviously fully speculating, but that is how these conversations go. like yes, we’ve drafted centers each of the last two years. Both of those guys are going to play next year. You are and Robert Williams is, you know, an expiring contract who needs to play. Um, you know, so our expectation going into the year is that you would play behind all three of those guys. So maybe they didn’t maybe the idea of a buyout didn’t start with the Blazers, but they I’m I I think it’s a reasonable suspicion that the Blazers made it pretty clear where he stood in the pecking order and that then he would have asked for the buyout. Um, so the buyout just, you know, the reason I think buyout wasn’t really on my radar is it’s just such a big number. You don’t see that very often with a guy that’s like $35 million. And it does tell you
26 27 years old.
Yeah.
Right. It does tell you what the trade market was for him
that you know, nobody and first of all, it’s hard to absorb a $35 million deal.
Yes. but also but also a $35 million deal for a guy who you know maybe you want playing 18 minutes off the bench and you know the lake you know there will be a team that wants DeAndre Aiden for $3 million on a on a minimum you know maybe there’s a mid-level exception out there for him but I suspect it’s going to be the minimum wherever he goes and you know sure could it be the Lakers I guess I don’t know if I think that his skill set fits I think there’s other guys on the market who fits them better in terms defense, but
my opinion of DeAndre Aton, as we’ve established in previous episodes of this podcast, is really low and not even not even really relative to his contract. I mean, especially relative to his contract,
but I don’t think he is a
he’s a player that you
can win with, you know, at least not playing, you know, a major role and probably not as a starter. So, um, you know, offensively an extremely gifted player who, you know, decides to use those tools, you know, once every few weeks. And so, you know, I think it’s pretty buyer beware, but um, certainly a chance for DeAndre Aton to, you know, hit the open market, find a team where he might be a better fit, and to rehabilitate his value, which is obviously, I mean, the the way this went down speaks for itself um, in terms of where his value was around the league. Um, so the Blazers have done two fairly cutthroat and decisive things in the last week, Brena. Obviously, buying out DA, um, not, you know, you know, avoiding, you know, going into next year and testing the trade market and hoping that there’s something at the trade deadline and and yada yada yada. Um, and trading Anthony Simons to Boston for Drew Holiday, a deal that none of us saw coming. Mhm.
And if you’ll indulge me for one more second, I have a bit of a story about how little we saw this coming.
Yeah.
Which is that trade happened on Monday of last week. Is that correct? Tuesday. Wait,
it was Monday.
No, it was Monday. It was Monday. Yep.
I got a phone call from an NBA source at 6 PM. This is somebody who does not work for the Blazers or the Boston Celtics. at 6 PM on Monday saying um saying the Blazers are being linked to Drew Holiday and I said I don’t I don’t know if I understand what you mean like that they would trade for him and like yes it doesn’t make sense to me can you help me understand why the Blazers would be interested in Drew Holiday and I couldn’t do it I was very confused and so I had that conversation went home and made my kids dinner and then I texted somebody from the Blazers And I said, “Hey, I have something to run by you.” Because it felt so far-fetched. Yeah.
And the person I texted took like 10 minutes to get back to me. And said, “What you got?” And I just sat there and looked at my phone and I was like, “This is so preposterous that if I say, “Is it true that you guys are interested in Drew Holiday?” I felt like I would show my I would be exposing myself as somebody who like is not actually sourced. Like it was so far-fetched. I thought it was going to make me look bad to ask if it was even possibly true. Um, so I said, “You know what? Let me sit on this a little longer and see if like I can figure anything out before I like actually actually share.” Um, and so, you know, whatever. Resume my evening. Basically sit on the the tip about Drew Holiday and at 9:00, you know, here comes Shams that that deal is happening. And I I don’t know if I’ve been I mean, I’ve definitely been more surprised by trades in my life. like Luca more surprised. But I was blown away by this because it did not immediately make sense to me. Yeah.
Um and so I spent some time I slept on it before I like wrote a column about it. And I’ve gotten to a point where I feel pretty good about it for the Blazers.
And I can break that I can break that down and why I think that’s true. Um, but when you combine the Anthony deal with the DeAndre Aton buyout, the Blazers are just very aggressively clearing up their like their their personnel issues.
DeAndre Aton does not make sense for this roster. Um, not a good fit, you know, really in any any regard.
Anthony Simons, you know,
you know, great offensive player, you know, longest tenur Blazer, wonderful human being, all those things. He was in the way of the development of Scoot Henderson and Shaden. Like it was really hard to make that threeman group in the back court.
Yep.
Um so they solved two of their most their two of their most glaring positional issues. The third is obviously Jeremy Grant. I’ll get into later why I think that’s going to be harder to clear up, but they have made that such a priority. And when you think back on the last several years of the Blazers, their strategyy’s been so murky and all over the place. We’re going to give Jeremy Grant $150 million. We’re going to take on these vets and then we’re also rebuilding through the draft and we’re tanking but trying to win for Dame. It’s like
I think the Blazers with these two moves in particular have shown that they really have a clear direction and are really, you know, finally handing the keys over to to their young core. Denny Avia, Tummani Kamar, Shaden Sharp, Scoo Henderson, Donovan Klingan, Young Hansen. Um, you know, the Yeah. So, I’m I’m excited for the Blazers. I have a column up on this right now that essentially they’re finally being honest with their fan base about where they’re going and who they believe is going to take them there. And I think it’s a huge It’s really refreshing after the last several years of the Blazers.
Well, yeah.
So, I’ll get off my soap box, drink some tea. Um why don’t you tell me what you thought of the Drew Holiday deal
um and where you’ve landed on it.
Yeah. Um I want to circle back to one thing that you said prior by the way. You know, you’re saying you didn’t expect the DA deal. You want to know who also didn’t expect the DA deal? Uh, Bill Simmons and Ryan Rascilo. I don’t know if you’ve had uh the honor of listening to their podcast that they put out yesterday. DeAndre comes up multiple times in the podcast. They’re like, “Yeah, like you know, like could like like Bill theorized that there could be a trade on the way with Utah, the Lakers, and Portland sending DA to the Lakers.” Uh Rillo at another point made mention he goes, “I can’t wait for the DeAndre Aton quote when Yang Hansen is takes his minutes for the first time.” Like the locker room soundbite is going to be incredible. Like they I and I haven’t even gotten all the way through it. So maybe he came up another time. I don’t know. I doubt it. But I was like, “This guy came up in at least two different parts.”
Wow. this episode that then as soon as it got posted I mean as soon as it got posted was immediately null and void when it came to that. So that was hilarious like and that just tells you how much people didn’t expect this happening. Well, you just don’t again, you just see it so infrequ infrequently at such a high dollar value. And I will
I mean, I would love to know how the backroom discussions on this went because if the Blazers were candid about with DeAndre about where he fit in, it makes total sense that he would he would want this. This is a guy who believes that he, you know, still is an all-star level talent, you know, wherever he shows up, you know, next season, assuming he find assuming he finds a home. Like I can’t imagine he agreed to a buyout without having
a team in mind or like a belief that a team is going to take him.
But DeAndre Aton is a lot closer to being out of the league than being an all-star.
Yeah.
And so but I am I fully believe that when he signs with, you know, the Hornets or whoever, if it is the Lakers, sure. But like show up, it’s gonna be the same thing. Huge smile, happy to be there. uh get back to being who I am, which is dominating. And it’s again great opportunity for him to rehabilitate his image wherever he goes. But like, you know, his belief in, you know, who he is as a player and the way he’s viewed around the league are very different things. Our friend Sean Hiken texted me and he said, “I’m so excited for the next Zachlo podcast, mostly because Zach loves the nickname dominating.” And he’s like, he’s just gonna say it as much as physically possible. Um, so I had to share that thought here cuz yeah, I might have to listen to the next Zach Low podcast just to see how many times he can fit in dominating.
It is. It’s a great It’s a great nickname. One, just at face value is a great nickname.
And two, it’s an even better nickname for a player who doesn’t dominate.
Like it’s much more hilarious that he is the selfproclaimed dominating. It would be like my It would like me naming myself uh you know, incredible, you know, and and but but being but just but just sucking.
You stay You stay ready with your puns. Good job.
You know, I’m going to get back to being who I am, you know, incredibly. Um okay, two uh in the in the list of things there. too. Um, you know, one of the things about the older players that are on this roster, older, uh, not that Aton is older. Um, you know, the more experienced, the more tenured players, you have DeAndre, you have Anthony, you have Jeremy. Okay, you could put Matise in there. Uh, but Matis is a little bit I feel a little bit different than those three. because Matise isn’t a starter. Um,
he’s not in the way.
So, yeah, he’s not in the way. So, you think of those three guys and you really need one of those three guys to be the certified leader of this team. And that is just not any of their personalities. You know, DeAndre is kind of a I’m gonna have fun guy. Anthony is a just a quiet dude and then Jeremy is more just kind of like smooth with it, you know? There’s there’s there’s no like high or low with Jeremy. He’s just very like even killed. But none of those guys have that leadership aspect to them. So there was all these young guys in a room who really desperately needed a leader and there just was no clear one on that roster. And when you when all of your older guys are not that don’t have that prototype in them, it’s it’s a really hard thing for a team to navigate, I think. So, I understand the Drew move just from the fact of bringing someone in who is a who has that quality to him already set. And now, is Drew excited to be here? That remains to be seen.
Here’s Okay, I’m gonna address that and like I don’t know. It’s possible that he’s stewing about this. Yeah.
But here’s what I would say about if if Drew Holiday is unhappy about being traded to Portland and the reporting on that,
you know, I think like you said it I don’t think we know the truth there.
Yeah, I think it’s one Drew was also like very angry to be getting moved out of Milwaukee, you know, and it’s like, you know, and you know, there were tweets at the time and it was like a whole thing. Well, he got traded to the Celtics and was able to win a championship and get a huge payday. Why? Because the Blazers worked with him on finding him a, you know, a new home and a place that was going to be the best case scenario for him. And so what I would think the conversations between the Blazers and Drew Holiday, you know, would look like going forward were, hey, you know, we helped you facilitate, you know, a really important step in your career. Um, we worked really closely with you and like, you know, didn’t we didn’t hold on to you for value. We didn’t like try to like you know complicate your life. We wanted to get you where you could you know flourish immediately and we did that. Mhm.
Now we are asking you to come back and help us. And I think that I think that any like first of all no player who likes where they are and is in a championship situation and a vital player on a championship situation is going to be happy to be traded.
Like Drew Holiday has a family. you know, he’s a, you know, he’s a, you know, he’s a very loyal person. Um, you know, I wouldn’t expect him to be happy that he’s being traded to a team that’s in a rebuild. Do I think he will buy in and be amazing in the locker room? I do. Like, I don’t I do not think this is going to be an issue. And I could be proven wrong, but it would just not be in his character to create an issue about this. I don’t see it. I don’t believe it. Um, it was the same thing when the Blazers tried to message that they were, you know, that Dame was going to be angry if he got traded anywhere other than Miami. Well, you know, he could be angry, but he’s going to show up and be a great dude because that’s who he is. And like, so there’s, you know, there’s whatever, you know,
pre pressure points you try to utilize to get to where you want to go in in a trade. But I also think that we’re talking about players of, you know, exceptionally high character. Yeah. Like Drew Holiday might be the best dude in the NBA. Yeah. Like if you asked, you know, if you asked 30 GMs, if there’s one player in the NBA, you want, you know, you could draft one player from from the NBA to be your leader in the locker room and on the floor, Drew Holiday would would get a lot of votes. And so I just I just think that this is probably overblown. I I think he makes sense for the Blazers in the locker room and on the floor. Like he doesn’t he doesn’t get in the way of Shaden and Scoot’s development in the way that Anthony Simons did. He’s more of a utility player than a pure point guard or pure two guard. Um, you know, I’m sure of course he wants to keep winning championships in Boston, but the reality of being a $35 million highlevel role player in the NBA today is you you you become an issue on the books really fast. Yeah.
And the Celtics are in a tear down because the realities of the CBA and Drew Holiday knew that. And so, you know, the Celtics, the Celtics, you know, he was a bad contract and a player the Celtics had to let go. Like his numbers were down last year as well. Um, but for is he a bad contract for the Blazers? I’m not as sure that he will be. I mean, it could it could end up being looking kind of like an albatross, but if you have a belief or if you’re if you if you have faith that he’s going to like bounce back from the year he had in Boston and that contract gets shorter and you think that he’s going to stabilize your locker room and give you something that you did not have and frankly desperately needed, then I think it makes sense for the Blazers. And you know, people look at the draft picks as sort of an indicator of like who won the trade. Like yes, the Blazers had they did a contract swap. The Blazers took on more years and the Blazers gave up the draft picks, but the Blazers also got a player they wanted on their team.
Yeah.
And I don’t think you can really overstate that piece of it. And those draft picks, you know, they were immediately replaced with, you know, a few days later in the draft when the, you know, 48 hours later in the draft when the Blazers traded down from 11 to 16, they got three draft picks. They got two firsts, excuse me, two seconds and a first. Well, that first, you know, essentially recoups the first that was lost in the trade for Denny Ovia last year that everybody lost their minds over. Like, why are the Blazers sending out draft picks? They got that pick back. It’s not the same pick, but it’s in the same draft.
Um, it could be a better pick and then they got two seconds back. Well, those essentially replace the two that you sent out in the Anthony Sims Drew Holiday deal. So, I wouldn’t freak out too much about the draft picks piece of it.
Yeah. Um, I think there’s reason to look at the Drew Holiday deal as a maybe a little bit of a lowrisk gamble. Like even if he doesn’t age well, um, and if you know, you’re in a position where it’s like, hey, we’re paying this guy $35 million and he’s not playing well. We can’t even put him on the court. Okay, that’s not ideal. But you also at least can say, but we have one of the best dudes in the NBA and one of the best leaders in the NBA in our locker room. Like the Blazers don’t have that in Jeremy Grant. They didn’t have that in DeAndre Aton. didn’t have that in um Anthony Simons. So, you just you at least are having a player who brings real value to your franchise in way in spaces that you didn’t have before. Um by the way, my uh my Anthony Simon story, Anthony Simon’s trade story is that I was on the phone with my mother sitting at work taking a dinner break and looked down at my phone, had a text that said, “Well, hello.” in all caps and went, “What?” Hm.
Immediately checked Twitter and went, “Oh my god.” I’m like, “I’m sorry, Mom. I gotta go.” I was supposed to drive down to Lake View last week. We talked about that to my mom’s hometown. Yeah. And I immediately got on the phone after that and I said I called her back like in like 10 15 minutes and I was like, “Look, I think it’s a bad idea.” Like, and I’m I’m glad that I decided to stay. And by the way, for anybody who’s like, “You should have gone seen your mom.” My mom wanted me to stay, too. So, you want to know what? Everyone was happy. Uh,
you chose you you you chose aunt over mother.
I did. I did. But it was more so like I chose the Blazers as a whole over my mother because all of a sudden it became extremely clear to me that oh, okay, they’re actually serious about doing some things this summer. Mhm.
Finally.
Yeah. And I mean listen and and listen like there are a lot of reasons that the Blazers adding a 35year-old combo guard who um you know makes more money than anybody else in the roster and you know is coming off of you know his biggest letdown season.
You know all of that all of that is like true and doesn’t quite fit. But I think for all the other reasons we mentioned there’s something to be said there. The other thing I’ll say about the players the Blazers have at the top of their payroll now in including Jeremy Grant. um sorry um including Jeremy Grant is they are players who at least you know in theory defend like Jeremy Grant I think is a little overrated as a two-way player and a defender but like he still gives you stuff defensively.
Yeah.
Drew Holiday is still going to be really um valuable on both sides of the ball.
That’s not true of Anthony Simons and DeAndre Aiden.
No. And so even if you’re they’re older and they’re, you know, overpaid, you know, relative to what they’re going to give you if they’re coming off the bench, they still do like the things that you need. They still fit the identity of the team,
you know, like they are both, you know, guys who I mean, especially Drew Holiday, you know, two-way players who are going to be awesome. Again, now I’m talking about Drew Holiday, you know, awesome defensively alongside Tumani Kamara and Denny Aia and Donovan Klingan. So, you know, they fit the identity of the team. Yeah. And
I think and I think it’s gonna be great for Scoot, by the way. I mean, I think that I think if Scoot Henderson is going to make it in the NBA, which is still a question, you know, have having Drew Holiday right there, you know, is going that’s
person to learn from.
Yeah. It’s the best person he’s had uh around him since he joined the Blazers.
Yeah. Um, and just generally my my, you know, 200 foot view from all of this is the Blazers are finally deciding to stop having their franchise have one foot in one pot and one foot in the other pot. And I’m just so excited to not have to deal with that dichotomy anymore of this team that had oddly two different timelines at the same time. And that’s what I was saying earlier. I mean, really for all, you know, all three of the, you know, years that, well, certainly I’ve been here, but since Joe Cronin became the full-time GM of the Blazers. So, you know, I think that they finally have um they finally have, you know, I mean, they they had chosen a lane. They’ve always chosen a lane. The lane was always we’re going young and we’re building through the draft, but their roster makeup didn’t reflect that. And therefore, what Chanty Phillips had to do on game night did not allow him to fully embrace the decision they had chosen to go. Now they finally have. Now he can. You know, we’re going to learn if these guys are good enough to lead the Blazers into the playoffs. You know, now or eventually. Like it was we we were not going to be able to learn that if DeAndre Aton and Anthony Simons were still playing big minutes because they, you know, were veterans and, you know, highly paid. You know, I think one of the things that is repeated again and again throughout the NBA is even if you go young, you still need vets on a team to help lead because if you go fully young, it’s a complete disaster. Um,
you need the right vets.
Yeah. The thing about the Blazers is that they had too many of the wrong vets.
Correct.
You know, it it was not it was not the type of vets that you you want. And then, you know, you had, you know, three guys right there. And if you want to count Robert Williams, it’ be four, uh, who just didn’t, you know, it was it was these guys that were just eating minutes that didn’t fit the timeline and didn’t provide any sort of foundation for the new guys.
Yeah.
And so I’m just even though, yes, obviously Drew is an older guy, as we’ve discussed, he has that leadership quality that those guys don’t have as much. Um, and and I think Rob actually is a is a great leader, but once again, it’s not like the it’s it’s just different. Jaru is just he is in the top echelon of NBA leaders. Um, and so just for that, I I understand. I was when I first saw the trade, I thought to myself, oh, there’s they’ve got to be sending him out again. But once they decide once I heard, you know, okay, they’re going to stick with this, it was like, okay, well, all right. Right. So then it took me a while to wrap that around.
You know, I’m
Yeah, that was I I mean that
seems to be like it seems to me that Drew will end up coming off the bench, which is I don’t know if that’s going to stick. We’ll see what happens. I’m I’m fascinated to see how that goes. That’s that’s my most interesting thing right now.
Yeah. So I mean I think I you know I think in my opinion it was like okay they’re they’re going out and they’re acquiring him. they are essentially buying his services because like there there wasn’t a super robust market for Drew Holidayiday. When you think when you look at like what people in Boston thought was going to have to happen, they thought that Brad Stevens was going to have to attach draft capital to incentivize somebody to take him. And so there was a lot of, you know, a lot of reaction in Boston like, oh, more Brad Stevens magic because, you know, he actually got draft picks back instead of having to attach draft picks. It just shows you how much the Blazers value what Drew Holiday is going to be able to do for them.
I think there’s some risk associated.
Y
but I don’t think
like again I think that you know I give Joe Cronin a lot of credit and I I’ve written this kind of throughout his tenure.
You know he is somewhat unorthodox as a general manager. He does things that, you know, do feel counterintuitive. Um, but he believes in them.
And I think that, you know, one of the hardest things you can do in a leadership position is make unpopular choices and and believe in them. You know, the Denny Ovia trade like nobody’s complaining now, right? right? Like Denny Oia has has validated himself, but there was still like a philosophical question that persisted throughout last season and I’m sure still to to today
about whether the it made sense for the Blazers to be surrendering assets, draft picks to acquire a really like elite role player like like if you’re if Denny Avia is your best player, you know, what is your ceiling as a team? Like, you know, on a championship team, you know, Denny Aia is probably like the third best player. So for a team that doesn’t have its first two best players, you know, does it make sense to be surrening surrendering draft picks to get Denny Oavia? That’s the that’s the the thought the thinking. But like Joe believed in it. Joe thought there was incredible value there. You know, he thought that they weren’t giving up as much as other people thought that the value of the contract. And so he pulled the trigger. You know, same thing with the Drew Holiday deal. A lot of people scratching their heads. Joe believes in it. The Hansen pick, you know, the the the young Hansen pick, you know, he believes believed in it. And like you know there’s obviously it’s come out since the draft that there were other teams it sounded like that were you know on him too. And Joe told me after the draft that you know they were sweating it from 11 to 15 that somebody else was going to swoop in and take him. You know they don’t think they were alone in the middle of the first round on Yang. um it seemed like they were and it feels like a reach and it’s one of those reaches that like you know you’re either going to end up looking like an absolute genius or it’s the you know or it’s the the lead to your obituary you know it’s like you know an unprecedented reach for a player who you know
never never made it you know it’s like so I mean there’s real risk with with a pick like that and Joe doesn’t care and so like I admire the um
the gallumption. Yeah. Just just his like just his belief in the decisions that they that they make. Like I mean
anybody who anybody who you know manages to public opinion is doomed to fail, right? But I I think that Joe um you know kind of even beyond that Joe is you know is has real like real real belief in like sort of his plan and like I think that you’re starting to see it come together more this week than at any point in his tenure. You’re seeing
you’re seeing like you’re seeing okay like it’s finally coming together. Did it take too long? Sure. Are you having to solve problems that were somewhat self-inflicted? Sure. But at least you’re getting some like real clarity that has been missing. And so I think um you know I think I I think Joe deserves a lot of credit for that. Yeah. No, I I would agree with that. Um we haven’t really talked about the draft yet. So should we should we transition to that? There’s just a few things going on in the last
I know it’s a huge it’s a huge week um in in you know really I mean and not just in in the NBA. Um, I do want to get to some things beyond the Blazers, but yeah, let’s touch on the on on the draft pick real quickly because it was like, as I just alluded to, it is it was kind of another Yeah.,
you know, out of left field, you know, Blazers, you know, front office decision.
Yeah. I mean, that was it was really wild. I think you were there.
I wasn’t there when they made the pick.
You were not there when you made the pick. Oh my goodness. So, I had just basically walked in because I went live in our four and five and supposedly six o’clock shows which they did not get to the draft pick in time. Um, boy did they take their sweet time this year because we were able to get the Donovan Cllingan pick in at 8 during our sports cast last year. We had to switch a few things around, finesse some things, but we got it done. Um, during the and that would have been around like the 550 range. uh they were not close to pick eight or they were close but it was not it would not have happened in the 550 range. So anyways um yeah I had pretty much just walked in. had maybe been there for like 10 minutes and yeah um it was silent in the room and then all of a sudden Sean Hiken belts out blurts out Yong Hansen and the whole place went what like like so many people were like well didn’t prep for that one like like nobody had any a lot of people had no clue who that guy was uh I once I was reminded of what he did at the combine, I was like, “Oh, yeah. I remember there was some Chinese guy who had a good combine, but that’s that’s about it on my my knowledge.” I mean, uh you know, it’s funny. Jamie Hudson and I uh did a show before the draft, like a preview show before the draft online, and we both had, you know, who we thought our top three picks were for the Blazers. And Jamie had what she considered a reach in uh Jacece Richardson from uh Michigan
State. And I texted her after and I go, “Man, seems like you should have gotten way more bold, girlfriend.” Like,
“Yeah, no kidding.
We both we both just had zero clue this was going to happen.” And I mean, I I thought that they were going to pick a forward to kind of back up um to back up uh Tummani and Denny since I figured that Jeremy was probably on his way out. I did not figure up until, you know, last night that uh they picked a center and DeAndre was on his way out. Did not see that one coming. So, once again, but I thought there was no way they were going to pick I thought there was I I didn’t see them picking a point guard because as we’ve discussed, uh I really think that they want to give Scoot the Keys and drafting another point guard. They they’ve they’ve got enough enough ball handling on the roster right now, I think. Um, and then and and I didn’t think they’d draft a center because hi, look at their center situation that I mean still I mean they’ve still got I mean they’ve got four centers on their roster. Like that’s that’s still crazy. Um, so I didn’t think it was going to be a center. So yeah, the whole thing was just just wild. Um, am I a fan of the pick? Uh, I guess it remains to be seen. You know, the big point that’s been put out there is that, you know, he wasn’t dominating in the CBA.
Mhm.
And normally international leagues are a pretty good indicator of how somebody is going to do in the NBA and there were a bunch of washed up NBA players who were playing better than him. Now, we have to remember the kid just turned 20.
Yeah. So that’s that’s my one kind of caveat to that. But still, I mean, you know, Luca was young and obviously it was that’s a different situation, but he was dominating in Europe. So, um it’s it’s apples to oranges there, I would say. But, um but yeah, uh personally, so you know, the thing about Yang is this, and this was this was made a point on Bill Simmons podcast last night, and I’m like, well, at least at least somebody’s saying the quiet part out loud around there. Um boy uh just drafting him does uh help with the financial bottom line I would say. Yeah. I mean so you I mean the Blazers are now like going to be one of the most popular teams in China as the team is for sale. Like whether that is the reason that they made the pick or not
I think it’s I think it’s a nice bonus. It’s a fact of it’s a fact of the situation that the Blazers now are going to be very uh closely watched by you know however many you know like what two billion people a billion people like it’s
um it’s you know that’s a huge deal you like when you consider the popularity of the NBA in China and the fact that you know there have only been a handful of players uh from China you know Yao Yei and now Yang um you know there’s going to be an opportunity for the Blazers to really you know explode in terms of their global appeal. So that is undeniable. Um as far as you know what I thought was going to happen in the draft. I mean obviously like Yong was not on my radar at all but um I was with you. I thought they were going to go like kind of I thought they were going to do the thing that you know it seems like they’re doing which is like you know who does what you know Tummani Kamar does and you know who is you know because like you watch the Pacers and it’s like they have 10 dudes who are like these two-way forces you know it’s it’s it’s Nemhard and Nmith and um you know they just have guys who play defense and so when you looked at who was left on the board or you know kind of was going to be available in their range you start thinking about, you know, Asa Newell, you think about Carter Bryant from Arizona, um, you know, uh, Derrick Queen doesn’t play the defense in that way, but like, you know, there people who like Derek Queen. Um, Asen from from France, you know, Blazers are kind of getting developing a bit of an international uh, you know, locker room. You know, a French player made some sense there. Um, and so I was kind of on that train. Like when we got to like 10 and Carter Bryant didn’t go to um to Phoenix.
Yeah.
I thought that they were going to draft Carter Bryant.
He was number one on my list for sure.
And so when they So I mean that was what I thought they were going to do. So I think you and I were of I mean obviously it sounds like we were of exactly the same mind. Yep. Um, so again like and I, you know, my opinion on this is if you make a pick like that that is seen as an incredible reach, you really have to be right. And and we’ll we’ll find out over time like how much of a reach it really was. And you know, as much as I admire the you know, the draft experts, you know, the mock draft folks, like they are not NBA executives. They’re not it. They’re no matter how much basketball they watch, no matter how much scouting they do, and like and listen, you know, like Sam Vini is a friend, John Hollinger’s a friend, like they are out on the road like watching players. They’re going to college games. They go to the international, you know, uh events that draw scouts as well. Like they are watching this as scouts as much as you know, journalists.
Um but you know, they also don’t need to make draft make actually make the draft picks at the end of the day. And so I do think at least in their current roles. Sean Hollinger’s made plenty of draft picks in his career, but um the the point, you know, is that I mean the Blazers I they were comfortable with the boomer bust sort of nature of this pick that like this, you know, has the potential to be a hugely high upside player to deliver value from the middle of the draft that generally isn’t there. and and you know I I again this goes back to Joe being willing to like you know make decisions with conviction when others don’t see it. Um you know and believing in in their scouting and you know believing in you know in in in Sergy and um and Mike and Mike Schmidz. And so I’m very intrigued by the pick. Do I like the pick? It’s not my job to you know know whether or not they’re right. Like I mean I’m I have questions like because man if it doesn’t work you know it really kind of signals because I mean I don’t think the Blazers have drafted that well
since Joe Joe’s been there and Mike Schmidz has run has run scouting like Shaden Sharp might be good but like this is kind of a make or break year. Scoop so far has underwhelmed. Um
um you know there you know the second round’s hard but Ryan pair like doesn’t really look like an NBA player. Chris Murray uh doesn’t really look like an NBA player. So, it’s like, okay, so you haven’t really nailed your draft picks. Um, you know, Klingan, okay, we we’ll see. Um, but I mean, if this pick hits, I mean, that is I think it’s an alltime, you know, it’s, you know, if he becomes a starter level player, like it’s an alltime, you know, international scouting victory. Um, but if it’s a miss, then you really kind of question what they’re doing there. So, we it’ll take time for us to figure that out, but like I mean I think it’s a huge it’s a huge indicator of how good this front office actually is.
Yeah, I’m really um I’m really interested. All All of a sudden, the Blazers summer league roster went from quite frankly completely uninteresting to extremely interesting with this pick. And I’m gonna be down there and I can’t wait to talk about it on the pod because I know what this is like to a certain extent because of Rui Hachimura at Gonzaga his senior year and that was crazy. This is going to be doubly or triply crazy at Blazers practices with him.
Yeah,
I cannot wait to just see the madness in the hoopla. And also like I just want to like you know say this as somebody who uh you know we we talked about his value to the franchise. Um I posted what one 10-second sound bite from him on my Instagram on Friday. I’m up like a hundred followers from that day.
Wow.
So like and Instagram’s like really hard to get followers on by the way. I know. Let me let me get a violin for you Brena. Um, but anyways, post it as a real. How many views did it have?
I know it has 13,000 likes right now. Um, let’s see. Let me let me let me do some real intime investigation on this pod.
It’s real real. Well, let me let me make one point. Let me make one appeal to the Portland Trailblazers. Uh, somewhat tongue and cheek, but also not as you do that. Uh, you know, we’ve talked about the we’ve talked about the um the facility or the arena and some of the areas that they need to do some upgrades and that they’re kind of, you know, they’re working on. I guess I don’t know that we’re going to get much in the way of uh structural changes while the team is for sale before a new owner comes in is able to do it themselves.
That said, boy, I would not hate if they expanded that uh that media workroom, especially if we’re going to be uh joined by some some of our new friends from China. because when you talk about already a place it’s kind of hard to find a seat to sit down and and work on deadline
um it’s going to I think that’s going to be an issue into next season. So if the Blazers haven’t thought about that yet Rossan Gathers you listening
think think about think about hiring a hiring hiring a contractor to expand that press room. Natalie King, you listening? Dwayne Henkins, let’s get some
Yeah.
Let’s get some blueprints going. A rebuild,
not just a rebuild of the team, a rebuild of the press room.
Yeah. No. Um, actually, like I cannot vouch for this more because that was the biggest issue at Gonzaga. I mean, with Ruie, they literally had to move us out of the press room and just set up tables outside in the concourse in the bowels of the arena because there was no there was no room for anybody anymore. And yeah, like it it was basically like that room was like cut off from us because there just was not enough room for everyone. Like like Mark Fuse’s press conferences that were out in a hallway afterwards became um a fight to the death to just get, you know, in position where you could point your camera to see him. So, um, yeah, I can definitely vouch that that press room that they have right now, most nights it works because there quite frankly are not a ton of people covering that team right now, but like the end of the season, you’re hardressed. Like the last game of the season, you’re normally pretty hardressed to find a a spot in there. You you probably should try to get in there early. You add the Chinese media into that, it’s going to be it’s going to be bonkers. Um, so yeah, that’s that’s a really great point. And as somebody who lived it herself, I can vouch that it can get really uh really testy. So, um, so yeah, and by the way, it has 387,366 views right now.
That’s that’s I mean that tells you a lot. Um, Brena, we got to move on from the Blazers.
We do. We’re 40 minutes in. This is going to be a longer one for us. I have a feeling there is a lot there is a lot of interesting stuff. So, we’re going to try to breeze through these other things real quickly,
but um so, uh Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, I broke the story about the Blazers or not the Blazers, the uh the presumed fire um moving on from their uh president, Inky Sun. Inky was hired at the beginning of April. Uh didn’t make it to three months there. There’s a lot um there’s a lot
within that. Yeah.
What was that?
I said consternation. Sure. And like and what I wrote too is like it raises a lot of questions kind of about, you know, how this team is being run and what
Yeah.
And and kind of what the direction is, you know, when you’re talking about, you know, we’re expecting a, you know, brand identity reveal on July 15th.
Um, unless something has changed, unless a certain columnist has really affected change, I think we know what that brand identity reveal is going to actually reveal. Um, and but also, you know, this team is 10 months out and doesn’t have a general manager, doesn’t have a front office staff.
It’s, you know, the time is ticking. Free agency for this like heralded off season, you know, where you have players including Sabrina Yianescue who are going to be free agents.
I’m not trying to say Sabrina’s going to come home, but like but certainly like there’s a great free agent class in 2026. Blazers is an expansion team. The Valkyries have kind of raised the bar of what an expansion team can do. Like, so this team needs to get to work and they in a lot of ways have been behind schedule. Now, is it too late? I I mean, first of all, I hope not. Like, I really want to stress like it’s so important to the city of Portland for this team to be a success and to like Yeah. you know, have to capture the the heart of the city because it and I’m going to write about this at some point, but I really want to emphasize that, you know, in a time when everybody’s kind of been moving out of Portland and like still the, you know, the the the outside um image of Portland is not back to where it was pre pre2020. It’s not even close. You have, you know, you have the WNBA investing in the city. You have the Bethalss investing in bringing something to the city. You are bringing eyes for something positive to the city and like I think it’s really unfortunate for their roll out that you know like I mean obviously I have been very critical of the fire branding. I think it’s a bad brand. I I accept that we’re probably stuck with it. I think it’s a miss. I think they should have done more um I think they should have invested more in in better in better marketing a better you know better marketing partner to come up with something better. I think it’s a miss, but that being what it is, but losing the the momentum of of the roll out and losing, you know, three months of work that your new president put in who was already starting late, like they had a hard time identifying candidates for that job and you get Inky in and she puts in three months of work that now it’s like, well, what did she actually get done? Like, and what, you know, what stays and what ended up not actually mattering. So now you But what I will say is they um the woman that they have hired uh Claire um
Oh my gosh, help me out. Claire, what is it? Hmel.
Yeah, Hamill. I think
Claire Hamill. Sorry, I totally had a I totally spaced out. Comes with just, you know, a wonderful reputation.
Yeah. Seems to be very highly regarded.
She’s worked on the, you know, the, you know, the apparel side with Nike, you know, for 43 years. She has worked closely with the WNBA. She is well connected. She is, you know, an incredibly high reputation. The people I heard from after reporting that she was going to be the the interim president um were, you know, one, very distinguished in their own right, and two, spoke unbelievably highly of her. So you do take a negative, right, of of you know the the um the black eye of of you know of changing presidents three months in
to a positive of bringing in somebody who people look at and say now that’s a serious that’s a serious person. Um you know Claire has still not like she is not a WNBA executive. She’s not worked on the team side which I think was one of the issues that they ran into with Inky. Like Inky had not worked in women’s sports. She had not worked in women’s basketball. She had not been on the team side. She was kind of on an island. It’s like, “Hey, here you are. Started a WNBA team from scratch with ownership that’s in Southern California and a CEO in Mike Whitehead who’s still in Sacramento.” Like, she was kind of on her own. And I think that, you know, that’s where it fell apart, you know? And one of the things I said when I was when we were talking about the fire branding, Brena, was who in the room is is representing Portland and kind of is is kind of speaking up for Portland and offering a local perspective. And yeah, you know, I failed to mention in that conversation that Karina Leblanc is obviously part of that group and she’s been here, you know, for more than a decade. So, I mean, she certainly has some perspective. Yeah.
But,
you know,
Claire is a local. She has been here for, you know, for decades and decades and decades. I actually don’t know where she’s originally from. She may not originally be from Oregon. She may be uh we’re grandfathering her in regardless. I If you’ve got 43 years here, we’re going to go ahead and and think that you’ve got some pretty good local perspective. 43 or more years here. we’re going to say you’ve got some pretty good local perspective. So, I think that’s valuable. Obviously, well connected, highly regarded. Um, I’m assuming that this is an interim job that gets, you know, through I I don’t know if this is a I I don’t get the sense that this should be a six-month interim thing like this, this is somebody who should be taking you to launch to the start of next season or through the first season.
Um, you know, people have asked if she could be the permanent person. I think that’s just a question of what
what she wants
what she wants. I mean, she’s in her early 70s, I believe. So, I mean, that’s, you know, like, you know, she retired from Nike at the end of last year. When you retire, you have visions of what your retirement is going to look like. And I don’t think most people’s retirement looks like, hey, I’m going to launch a new sports team, and that’s going to be the next 10 years of my life. So, I mean, we will find out what that ultimately looks like, but I think that the the real takeaway is that Portland WNBA, the fire or not fire, took a negative of having the what they deem to be the wrong person in that position and turn it into a positive by hiring Claire. That’s a lot from me. I’m sorry to ramble. Um, but I’m I’m curious kind of how you view the kind of those those developments from the WNBA. By the way, sorry, I’m doing it again. But WNBA is expanding again. They have three new teams as of as of today. They expanded. They announced expansion in Philadelphia, Detroit, and Cleveland. We talked about the Rockers before. Um, you know, so, you know, the WNBA is is growing. So, there’s now more mouths to feed. There’s now um you know, I mean, obviously those teams are a year further out than Portland, but you know, there are more teams that are to contend with. You know, it’s there’s one thing to be saying, “Hey, we’re going to be competing in a in a 15 team league. Now you’re competing in an 18 team league.” And, you know, it’s a lot easier to get left behind and there’s 17 other teams than when there’s, you know, 14 other teams if you’re not if you’re not on top of your game.
So,
that’s exactly where I was headed.
The pressure is on.
Yeah. Like Toronto has had it way more together.
Yep.
Now, to be fair, did they have more time? Yes, they did. four months more, like not dramatically more. It was four months. They were announced four months before the September launch of the WB team in Portland, but it is more time. I agree.
It is more time. Um, Toronto’s felt like they’ve had it more together, and now you have these three other franchises breathing down your neck.
Yeah, exactly.
So, uh, yeah, they they got to get it together. I don’t know what else to say. like this is not a fantastic look and I’m sure with this combined with the fact that there are people who agree with you about the fire. There are also people who obviously disagree with you about the fire. Um but that it was not a universal slam dunk of a name. Um that there has been some consternation about the naming. Um, so those two pieces of news coupled together and the fact that like you said, they do not have a GM, which needs to be filled like yesterday. Thank you. Uh, because you can’t you can’t hire a coach until you have a GM. So, let’s get it going, baby. Um, yeah. I mean, it’s it’s making it look I don’t think we’re at the full level where it’s unserious right now. And I don’t think that they’re unserious. I mean, they’re building a practice facility, you know, like
Yeah.
But it certainly is not in the other direction. And yeah, it’s just it’s
Yeah, that’s I think that’s I think that’s I think that’s really fair.
Yeah. And you know, as we’ve said, we both hope that this team is a rousing success. Um but right now it it rightly I think gives a lot of people some trepidation of of where things are headed and they have a very limited amount of time to write this ship. So, I’m glad that they found somebody that, you know, people have a lot of respect for. Great. Cool. Um, you got you got to keep putting the pedal to the metal and and get something going. Um, cuz right now the vibes are not as sterling as you would hope for a team that’s launching. I mean, right now we need to be in the honeymoon phase, baby. Yeah.
Like,
this is a time where everyone’s like, “Oh, yay, blah, blah, blah.” And that’s just not the vibe right now because everyone is a little anxious about where they are in this roll out.
And and also like gosh, I mean, if it is the fire, if it is the fire, why are we waiting until July 15th? Like
yeah, I don’t get that either because like there is, you know, pardon me. I’ve definitely spoken to people who, you know, can make a case for the fire and, you know, that there’s an argument that it’s sort of like, you know, the the nostalgia play is strong enough and you’ve talked about that. you you you like the nostalgia play. I get it. I don’t think there’s as much nostalgia for it as as maybe they hope, but we’ll see. But like if you’ve got kickass branding, if you think that there’s a if you think the fire tells a story that’s different than what my interpretation of it has been and I’ve written about,
you know, and and gotten a lot of feedback on in both directions as you said,
then I would want to start telling that story as fast as possible because otherwise it’s we now have another 15 days of
well
of like is it really going to be the fire? Do we like the fire? I really wonder if uh I really wonder if uh they moved that event up already because before the fire before uh before our friend Sean found that trademark uh they were they announced a conference in Portland having you know the it’s a conference like being the global epicenter of women sports you know it’s it’s all about that and one of those days was a day where it kind of felt like they had circled for announcing the team name. There was there was some event on some day that was very ambiguous during one of those during in that press release. And I thought to myself, all right, that’s naming day. Cool.
Um, so I wonder if they already moved it up to the 15th because it sure seemed like they were tipping their hand to something on I think like the 25th.
Um,
interesting, brother. We’re we we we’ve got to go fast just because there are other people who want to podcast
at the Oregonian Oregon live. I want to say I want to touch on the other kind of breaking news of the week,
which is the Pack 12 getting uh to an eighth team uh adding adding Texas State uh in all sports, right? All sports. Um
yes,
Texas State, if you remember, we’ve talked about we haven’t talked about Pack 12 expansion for a long time, but I think this was the best the best available choice, right? like you know the the Memphis two-lane thing um you know could still happen down the road um you know you don’t you’re not necessarily locked in at eight UNLV we’ll see kind of what happens with the Mountain West you know rights thing but in terms of just getting to eight Texas state location-wise regionally um a little speculative but not as speculative as Sacramento State’s trying to get into one of these leagues and like good on them but you know Texas State has done the work and the and I have it here from their press release just some of the some of the stuff that they’re sort of uh heralding and crowing about is you know you’ve got a you know not only money is being poured into Texas State. So they’ve done um you know they they have they have a new football practice facility that was $37 million. $149 million has gone into the facilities and athletic infrastructure at Texas State at Texas State since 2022. Um you know they have a $23 million naming rights deal. Like this is a school that I Yeah. Um, covered a little bit. I had an internship in Austin in 2008, Austin, Texas, and San Marcus is, you know, down the road from Austin between San Antonio and Austin, maybe 25, 30 miles south of Austin.
Um,
and kind of a non a non- entity at the time. Yeah.
You know, at least in the eyes of like the sports department at the Austin American Statesman and, you know, you know, San Marcus, Texas, you know, just wasn’t really moving the needle. and they came to Montana one year to play a playoff game. Uh, you know, obviously the Grizz Grizzlies triumphed obviously, but like you know, not a not a player on the national stage. They’ve made the steps to to change that and they are in a hot bed of recruiting. This raises their profile. They, you know, obviously, you know, that helps the rest of the league. you can go to all those high schools in central Texas and and throughout the state, especially in central Texas, and say, “Hey, you know, you we’ll get you a home game, you know, and and so I think that this is a fit, you know, it’s it’s a it’s the same kind of fit that like they’d gone and gotten UTS UTSA as well.” Um, I think this is the right choice. I’m glad they got it worked out. I think this does make the conference feel more complete. Um, it’s obviously not what the Pack 12 was and what Oregon State was and you know, all that, but like I I like the fit. I’m glad this was the eighth school. I’m glad it wasn’t something random like, you know, South Florida or something, you know. I I am I’m pleased that this is how they got to eight and how they can get to, you know, their, you know, completion.
Yes. just would like to say how crazy of a week is it that we are basically making the Pack 12 being whole as a footnote in our podcast. I think that says everything. So maybe maybe we can re revisit this. Uh
and I’m sure and I’m sure we will. And also I want to acknowledge that we’re recording this podcast on Monday about two hours before free agency opens in the NBA. Um the Blazers don’t have cap space. I wouldn’t expect, you know, a a flurry of activity from them, but, you know, they certainly, you know, have been have already kind of been ahead of the ahead of the curveball here in terms of making moves. So, um, if we miss something that happens in the early hours of free agency, which, uh, starts at 3:00 Pacific time, and you’re listening to this after the fact, and you’re, why didn’t you talk about the Blazers, you know, signing so and so, um, we’re recording.
Can’t even come up with a name because this free this this free agency class is not good. Why didn’t you write about the Blazers signing Chris Paul to a minimum contract? You know, like whatever it is. Um I I think that by the way, Chris Paul, think about what Chris Paul did for Shay Gildas Alexander in his one year in Oklahoma City.
Yep.
I think that’s the play the Blazers are making with Drew Holidayiday and Scoo and Scoo Henderson. Um that was also in my column last week.
Um but anyhow, that’s just my caveat. Um Brena, it is the it is it is the heart of summer. I don’t want to keep saying that we will be back next week with a with a podcast. We may be back next week. We’re going to figure that out. But um we will uh
I would love to be back next week. So if it works out, it works out. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I said I would love to be back next week. If it works out, it works out. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I just don’t want to overpromise and underdel. I want to underpromise and overd deliver. So um we’ll talk to you all when we talk to you. Brena, thank you so much for your insights and perspective making it happen on a Monday. Wow, we’re are like on top of it this week. On top of it. All right. Thank you for listening. Tell your friends out there or going podcast review all the things that people on other podcasts tell you to do. Do that for us too. Okay. Going to drink some more tea. Brena, thank you. Bye. [Music]
Before the NBA’s free agency period even began, the Portland Trail Blazers had already addressed two of their biggest offseason questions by jettisoning Deandre Ayton and trading away Anfernee Simons. By moving off the high-dollar contracts of two veteran players who no longer fit the team’s timeline or identity, general manager Joe Cronin has cleared the runway for the team’s young core to either sink or swim.On this week’s episode of the Oregonian Sports Podcast, hosts Bill Oram and Brenna Greene react to the Blazers flurry of swift and decisive moves.
Also discussed on the episode:• Can the Blazers complete the sweep and find a taker for Jerami Grant, as well?• Is Jrue Holiday really unhappy about being traded to Portland?• Why drafting Yang Hansen was either brilliant or brainless• How Portland’s WNBA franchise turned a negative into a positive with its front-office shakeup• Do the hosts like Texas State as the final addition to the reimagined Pac-12?
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