Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Cavs Make their Moves

Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Cavs Make their Moves

[Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. [Applause] Heat [Music] up [Music] here. [Music] [Music] Hey. Hey. Hey. [Music] [Music] down. [Music] [Music] Heat. This crowd rises to his feet. Picaro slammed it home. Garland left wing three ball. Perfect. Garland of the lane lock the pop and Allen blocked the shot at the rim. Oh, with the left hand and a foul.
Welcome to the Chaseown podcast, part of the Cavs Media family. I’m your host, Justin Rowan. The Chaseown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Cavs. Watch over 350 channels of live sports and TV, including FanDuel Sports Network without cable. There’s no cost and no commitment. Try for free at fubotv.com/cavs. The free agency moratorum is finally over. All the transactions you’ve been hearing about for the last week finally were able to be finalized, which means it was a busy day for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Officially trading Isaac Ooro for Lonzo Ball, signing Larry Nance Jr. and signing Sam Merrill to a contract extension. Joining me today to discuss all of this and more is my co-host Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, buddy?
I’m doing good. Uh, you know, it’s nice to uh finally get to talk about some of this stuff. Uh uh it’s always a double-edged sword being uh being affiliated where you want to weigh in, you want to start talking right away, and part of the fun is weighing in right away. Um and you don’t get to do that. Uh, but it does give you time to really like put together some coherent thoughts um about well, I guess remains to be seen if anyone else thinks they’re coherent, but it does give you time to think about everything kind of in service of of of the of the of the greater hole and like and of like what I think the team is going for, what you know, as I like to say, what lessons I think Kobe chose to learn. uh Kobe in the front office chose to learn from uh this last season. And uh I do think the picture is clarifying if nothing else in terms of what we think they took away from last year. And I also think it’s important too because from our perspective, neither of us are journalists. We’re not someone that knows what’s going to happen before it happens. uh you know, we’re we’re reacting and finding out about this stuff in real time just like any other fan. So, when you see these transactions, actually having some time to let it breathe, get some of the reporting, what the thought process was, uh you know, learning from basically the national and local reporters on a lot of stuff. It’s important. You also get to see a more complete picture. You know, I I think the the the Lonzo Ball trade was a bit of a surprise to some extent. I know it was something that you and I had been talking about that as a potential swap for a while now. Uh but I I think once you see the Larry Nance Jr. signing all of a sudden that gives you new bit of context, new bit of clarity with what’s going on. But I do want to start things off with the trade of Isaac Cororo for Lonzo Ball. Uh obviously Okoro has played a major role for the Cavs over the last few years. uh even when his role gets shrunk at times and you know his minutes per game went down to just under uh 20 this past season, he still found a way to start over 20 games for the Cavs this season. He he was one of those guys that always seemed to find a way into that start starting lineup. Always seemed to have some contribution there. Um I I think there was reporting basically since the season ended that there’s potential that the Cavs could move on from OKR. It could be a straight up salary dump right there. There were people talking about what teams could absorb him into space for a second round pick or two. And uh this swap for Lonzo Ball, I know you and I had been talking about it for a little bit. Not not because we knew it was possible, but because this was something that I had an interest in. One of my big takeaways from the last two off seasonasons has been the Cavs need to find a way to to get more playmaking to be a little less reliant on Darius Garland when it comes to initiating the offense to to help their offense translate to the playoffs. And although this move comes with a lot of risks, this certainly does add some playmaking to the mix for the Cavs. Yeah, I mean I I think it’s important to I don’t know. I do think it’s important to acknowledge the wider uh uh reality of also the decid you know what what appears like it’s going to be you know the end of the Tai Jerome era in Cleveland as well as part of this because I do think it’s all it’s all you know it’s all tied together right it’s Lonzo fororo is a transaction that was announced today but you know to some extent it’s also a reflection of like a decision to prioritize a different style of player at the point guard at the backup uh one spot. And I it is interesting to me, Justin, that this is going to be the first year in three years uh that they have not gone into the season kind of with it with the plan to have a ball dominant kind of scoring guard carrying the load. You know, it’s been it was Caris, you know, Ricky was the playmaker. Ricky was in the the Lonzo Ball mold and we all really loved that by the way before he got hurt. Um and then you go to Caris and it’s kind of been Caris and then even after they traded Caris it was only because they had they had been able to replace Caris’s off the dribble scoring production in the form of Tai Jerome.
Yep. So, it does feel like a bit of a sea change stylistically to your point in terms of getting a table setter, getting someone who’s a pace pusher,
someone who gets off the ball um and just keeps things moving.
Uh I think that is a pretty major difference going into the year. And it seems like, you know, a lot of the press releases talked about the defense and he’s certainly a very disruptive defensive player, but like I’m more interested in the offensive side of the ball cuz it seems to me like the team decided with, you know, both, you know, picking up Lonzo and then uh choosing to retain uh Sam Merrill that they really wanted guys who move without the ball, who play both ways, and who, you know, aren’t going to pound the rock. Like it feels like they’ve kind of like they they they want to see, you know, that kind of stuff democratized a little bit. They don’t just want, you know, diet Darius or Diet Donovan with their with their backup guards. They do want to see something different. And I mean, remains to be seen if it will work, but that does seem to be like the the exclamation point takeaway from the way they’ve managed the back court going uh going into next year. Yeah. And my mind started racing when I saw this transaction initially reported because I still felt like the Cavs could go one of multiple ways because with the trade for Lonzo Ball, if you look at Lonzo, as much as he is a fantastic passer, he has kind of transitioned to more of an offg guard role. I I actually was sitting there thinking, you know, you could bring back Tai Drum in theory, have him play the same role and functionally just have Lonzo Ball play the Isaac Coral role just in a different way, right? Like all of a sudden you’re replacing those 20 minutes per game that Okoro was playing with someone that is going to still be that point of attack defender. He’s a taller player than Okoro. He’s a longer player than Okoro. uh they impact the game differently defensively as well as obviously offensively, but this could be a way that you get that point of attack defender while adding playmaking to that position. So, I was curious to see are they going to bring back Ty Drrome to be that bench scorer and really have him in that combo guard role rather than trying to, you know, have him do some of the playmaking or are they going to go the other direction? And and I remember heading into the off season I said one of the things that I felt like they had to make a decision on was they might be in a position where they had to decide between Ty Drum and Sam Merrill where I said I was comfortable if you want to go back to Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland functionally taking up all the point guard minutes. Um if that was the direction they wanted to go and bring back Sam Merrill I was comfortable with that. If you wanted to bring back Ty Jerome and not bring back Sam Merrill, I would understand that too because when you have Ty Jerome, Sam Merrill, Darius Garland, and Donovan Mitchell all playing significant roles, it was inevitable that you are going to be small. We know that the Cavs are going to be smaller because of the presence of Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell. And it just felt like it changed the rotation too much having them out there. And I think one of the interesting things about having Lonzo Ball with Sam Merrell is even if you are having these three guard lineups now all of a sudden you are taking you know a three guard combination where you had Ty Jerome, Sam Merrell and Donovan Mitchell out there. Um they played three times as many minutes as the same version with Darius instead of Donovan. But you had your three weakest perimeter defenders out there on the court at the same time. you know, none of them I think were even true negatives when you look at the tracking data. Tai in some areas was um and I think that was more apparent against tougher com uh competition, but for a seasonl long average, you just aren’t putting any pressure on teams defensively. And I think having Lonzo Ball out there where he can functionally guard those small forwards and he adds more size makes those three guard lineups more viable. Like we would have felt good if the combination was Donovan Mitchell, Sam Merrill, and Isaac Coro. And I functionally feel like that’s what we’re getting here with Lonzo Ball only with added playmaking to take pressure off of Donovan Mitchell and help get better looks for Sam Merrill.
Yeah, I mean that that’s definitely true. Uh you’re not not giving up stuff. That is important to note. Like I do think this is a calculated risk and you know I’m not sure if it’s one I would have taken you know and especially letting Tai go. I mean Tai you know I was I think I would be remiss to or you know I think it would look a little bad faith for me to be screaming about how I felt like Tai was the six man of the year last year
and be like not gonna miss it not gonna miss what he brought to the table. You know like when one of the guards is banged up it was really nice. you know, that indie series was so bad, uh, you know, at its worst that I think it really colored, I think, some people’s experience of the season, but there was no more reliable 20 points in the league than Ty Jerome when one of Darius or Donovan were out of the lineup,
right? Um, uh, and efficient too, generally, both as a scorer and as an assist to turnover guy, you know, not a pure point guard by any means. I wouldn’t view him as a table setter. Like he was a guy he wanted to get into the paint and get kick outs and things like that.
Um but like you know 50 darn near 50 40 90 on volume from a bench guard uh isn’t something you find every day. Uh, this is a Cavs team that
at its worst offensively can get a little side to sidey and it was really nice being able to go to tie and say, “Hey, just get downhill and dig an elbow into someone’s rib cage on the way there and and see see what you see what you can get up, see if you can draw a foul or two, see if you can change the rhythm or energy of the game.” And they are going to miss that. I I I do think that the burden on players like DeAndre Hunter who could kind of have games where he had low field goal attempts and just, you know, be a do my job guy.
I think the burden on him goes up.
Yeah.
Uh which I’m not necessarily unhappy about. And like that is kind of the counter. Uh, if I can argue with myself here for a minute, even though I’m a little worried about missing these things, most of the solutions aren’t things that make me feel too bad like uh like the solution one is more DeAndre Hunter uh scoring usage. It’s a very good scorer, was leading the league in points per game off the bench before the trade and his volume took a hit when he got to Cleveland.
Um, more Evan Mobley usage, alarm blaring, that’s all I want for this entire team. is the only thing I think that propels this team to true championship uh contender status is uh is proper Evan Mobley, you know, getting up those 15, 17, 18 shots a game in the postseason. So like you know this might be there might be a case where losing that very efficient usage uh from Tai Jerome uh it might be a bit of a take your medicine moment where
the first months of couple months of the season you go would be nice to have Tai here you know Darius is out tonight he’s got the flu and now a lot of our scoring punch is is is diminished you know like that kind of stuff
more immediately at the Yeah, for sure. So, like there is some some stuff that you you are giving up losing tie. I think what the Cavs are betting is that all the other stuff that Lonzo does to to be the tide that raises all boats for a team uh will kind of cover the cover the gap and and in some cases elevate other guys. You know, I mentioned Ricky Rubio. Sorry, this is a little monologuy. I mentioned I mentioned Ricky Rubio earlier
and I think it’s important to remember Ricky was not that efficient as a Cavaliier and nobody cared during that you know that that half season before he got hurt uh because of all the ancillary things he did that were so helpful for the team’s general health and functioning uh especially on the offensive side of the ball and on the defensive end. He was still a very good defender even in at his older age. And like I think at the at the end of the day, what you’re hoping for with Lonzo is that but 67 and longer. And uh and yeah, that’d be pretty cool.
Yeah. And it’s funny to me because I think there’s a really obvious parallel when you look at this trade and what happened with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Uh the the Thunder got eliminated from the playoffs and one of the things that they said was, you know, we got out rebounded like crazy. We we need uh some intensity on the inside. We need to go out and get Isaiah Hardenstein. That for the Cavs, they needed to go out and get a big wing. That the their Hardstein move was adding DeAndre Hunter. I I think, you know, if he didn’t have his shooting uh thumb dislocated in the playoffs, I I think he would have continued to make a big impact cuz he made a big impact uh basically immediately after coming over with the trade. But the other thing that the Oklahoma City Thunder did was they traded their sixth overall pick, who kind of fell on the wayside in terms of no longer having as solidified of a role uh amongst the the young core that they had amongst the players that they were developing and they traded him for Alex Caruso who I think the Cavs are hoping Lonzo Ball can have a very similar impact. And I actually expect both of those guys to be managed the same way. The the Thunder limited his games played. uh they they didn’t play Caruso in backtobacks. They they were concerned about his health and wanted to get him there to the playoffs. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Cavs take a similar approach. Heck, they did the same thing with Ty Jerome. Tai was basically on a seasonl long minutes restriction because prior to last year, he had never played 50 games in a season. Lonzo Ball has done that three times in his career. Uh I I think that the last time he had a healthy season was his rookie season. uh when it comes to Ty Jerome. So, I actually thought uh a really good catch uh from uh the folks over at Real Cass Fans was they clipped part of Kobe’s press conference uh at the end of the season where he was talking about, yeah, we we would like to have these guys back, but we also have a lot of faith in our development uh to, you know, both what we were able to do with Tai Jerome and what we’ve done with Sam Merrill and our ability to replicate that, whether it’s bringing in new people, whether it’s internal development to to count on these guys to to keep them healthy to to excel within Kenny’s system. We feel like we can do this. So that that’s going to be part of the thought process in the equation. And you know, from a personal standpoint, uh because one of my big takeaways has been playmaking, playmaking, playmaking where you we we don’t want to be in a position where we’re just relying on the guards to initiate so much. I probably would have, you know, I agree with the the Lonzo move. I probably would have brought Tai back over Sam, but it’s very clear that they’re going in a different direction here. And, you know, h have a belief that, hey, Sam is going to be able to to bring us that movement shooting. We think he can play off of these guys. He was not played off the floor in the playoffs like Ty Jerome was. Ty, you know, it it is tough when Tai was the only healthy guard and he wasn’t able to bring it up, you know, against ball pressure from Indiana where, you know, you’re getting those 8-second violations like stuff like that is going to stick out. I still would have leaned Tai Jerome out of the two of them. I think you can learn from those playoff experiences, but I understand the the risk from a health standpoint and, you know, just the the thought process of we want to feel different to play against next year and we’re just going to reconfigure how we use our guard rotation.
Yeah, I mean I I’m totally with you. Uh and I I I do feel that way. I I feel like the story of the playoffs was how many guys do you got on your team that can dribble? M and you know Tai can really dribble. Uh you know I know uh again it was a catastrophic series really and I was looking through it really it was two catastrophic games against Indie. The other ones were like blleh. I mean like by the way he got us back in the game in game five. He got benched the first half. Cavs were losing their, you know, losing their shirt and he came in and hit two threes, hit a layup and kind of got them gave them a little life. Had two assists as well. Um, but you know, it really was those games two and three where he goes uh one of 14, one of eight, you know, and like it’s a collapse. There’s no way around it. Uh uh you know, but you know, even in a game where I didn’t think he played very well in game one, he had 21 and eight. Uh yeah, like on on 20 shots, but only one turnover. So like I I don’t know. I I’m I am disappointed to to to see Tai go.
Um you know, I think uh I think he and there is also that there’s the fan base part of your brain
where I just really liked watching the guy. I thought he added an a nastiness to our team uh of nice young men that I that I definitely um think the other guys are going to have to kind of find a way to replicate elsewhere, you know, like even even when it, you know, presumably backfired like when he was talk talking to Paulo like and everyone was like don’t do that, don’t I was I loved it. I I just like I like that edge and like I don’t like situational trash talkers. It’s like one of my real pet peeves. Like, oh well, I can talk to you. I can’t talk to him. It’s like you either talk to everyone or you talk to nobody. Like that’s a a
one you’re down to. You got to be standing there saying, I didn’t hear no bell.
Yeah. And like uh and you know, so I I I definitely
had so much fun with his season and I just wanted to see what it looks like and I thought even if he went down to like 80% last season, that’s still one of the best backup guards in the league. um which he again he was last year but I don’t want to speak out of both sides of my mouth and this again this is where it helps to have a little time to process cuz I did leave last year’s playoffs going I want the team to feel different
y
and a team with Lonzo you know basically saying hey the only you know guy only bench player we’re going to play under 65 the only you know we’re going play three dudes under 6’5, Darius, Donovan, and Sam. Everyone else is going to be big. Everyone else is going to be long. And like that does mean something, you know. Um uh and it just kind of right now with the way the roster is built and again we’re going to I do want to actually talk about what these guys are going to bring to the court a little a little deeper
um once we get through some of this but right now they’ve basically taken Ty Jerome Isaac Coro and um that’s yeah that’s it that’s it right in terms of their levers and replaced them with Lonzo and uh Larry Nance. And that is
and that’s that’s just a lot bigger. It just is.
Um and
not only that, it’s a big step up in playmaking. Like Larry Nance Jr. is one of the most cerebral bigs out there. I know you and I have been enamored with him. Uh have been following closely. We were hoping and praying that he would get bought out from Atlanta just on the off chance that he would come. Uh, you know, the funny thing is I remember last offseason we were discussing when it was unsure if Okoro was going to sign an extension or not. Larry Nance was one of the guys we talked about as hey maybe you could work out a sign and trade there. And then the same thing kind of happens for Lonzo. It’s just funny that you know Okoro was on the way out and you bring in both of those guys that that we kind of talked about in that way. You’re you’re right though like I I think I I think it’s fair to to have mixed feelings and mixed emotions as fans, right? Like I it’s you look back at the last couple years and I I think sometimes people think we just default agree with everything that the Cavs do just because we happen to agree with the moves that they were making, right? Like we were preaching patience after a lot of injuries and stuff like that. They’re, you know, sometimes they’re going to take calculated risks to change up the roster and it might not be the the way that we would do things from a a basketball standpoint, but we can at least see, you know, both sides of the logic. Just like when when you know we agree with a decision, but we want to present the other side. I think the same thing’s happening here. And I I remember that happened when we traded Larry away the first time where, you know, we both had split emotions. Uh I I was in favor of bringing in Larry, but I thought you brought up a lot of valid points about how this could work and how it couldn’t work. And I think what the Cavs have done here by bringing in Larry Nance Jr. and Lonzo Ball, guys that are going to bring size. They are going to be bring playmaking, but historically have missed time. The Cavs are showing that they are okay deprioritizing the regular season to some extent because they believe that this team construction, if healthy in the playoffs, is going to give them a better chance to win in the postseason. And, you know, I I understand that as a calculated risk, and I I I see where it can go right and I can see where it can go wrong. I I just think, you know, it’s interesting to have these discussions because so much of basketball team building is subjective.
Yeah, it’s uh it’s tough. Uh and like these are, you know, those spots where you you really kind of have to rely on uh the the the Mac when a team does go on a decision. I may I might have chased this guy over this guy. You know, it it it’s it’s a challenging thing as a fan, but like I do really trust that this organization is thoughtful about what they’re doing, has a really strong point of view, and like the, you know, the the point of view thing cuts both ways. Like sometimes we’re so grateful to the org for not doing what, you know, what Twitter tells them to do. You know, I I think like in in many cases like, you know, we we’ve been very opposed to some of the some of the loudest voices on Twitter and what they what they want the team to do. But
and I think everyone listening has seen a bad idea on a trade machine once or twice before.
Sure. Uh but like you know it cuts both ways which means that their point of view sometimes means they’ll do stuff we wouldn’t do you know and uh and like uh so but ultimately I do think they’ve earned the benefit of the doubt with really strong team building with uh moves that I think are you know like all I really want at the end of the day as a fan is to be able to see the upside in the move. So, even if it’s not exactly what I have done, like I I still I still get I still see the case for what a Lonzo Larry back, you know, benchmob lineup looks like and how like and and how some of those moves really do address some things that really bothered me about this team. Uh
yeah, and it’s funny, you know, going into the offseason where I was saying, you know, I just don’t feel like you can comfortably bring back both Tai Jerome and Sam Merryill unless you got a commitment from them that said, “Yeah, I’m okay signing even though I’m going to have a market as a free agent, which, you know, there was reporting today from Terry Pluto that Sam Merrill did have a a market for, you know, the the amount that he signed with the Cavs.” That that movement shooting is big time in demand in the NBA. I think you you saw that with Duncan Robinson and other movement shooters. Um, but you know, as much as I you know what what I was saying was that if they were willing to commit to sacrificing some nights I’m not going to be in the rotation, some nights I will, even though I’m demanded on the market, I was comfortable bringing them both back, but I just didn’t think that that was realistic. I said I could see the case for bringing either of them back and I could see the case for bringing neither of them back. And in hindsight, I think I was wrong on that because the realities of the sec second apron world is we already, you know, when we discuss these potential trades and who the Cavs can swap for one-on-one, it is impossible to do so without either downgrading talent or moving on from someone within the top six of the rotation because they they all play essential parts and that’s not who you want to to move on from. This once again gives them some flexibility, too, right? I I think Sam Merrill brings a lot to the table, but I I think it’s very similar to Isaac Okoro. He’s almost functionally taking over that Okoro slot uh within the salary cap and within the rotation where yeah, they’re probably going to be able to have the flexibility now that they have some more front court depth with Larry Nance Jr. They might go a little lighter on the guard rotation in the future and he’ll fall out of the rotation. He’s going to give them some flexibility on the trademark. There’s, you know, you want to have that optionality. And if you let both of them walk, it would be really impossible to do those one for one second apron swaps without moving someone that you probably would really kind of have to think hard about moving. Not not that that isn’t the case with Sam, but it’s obviously a little different than when you’re talking about the top six within the rotation.
Yep. You’re you’re absolutely right. Let’s dive in, I think, a little bit further on the Lonzo thing. Um, cuz I I I definitely have some thoughts. There’s some stuff I’m really really excited about. There’s some stuff I’m a little angsty about. Which way would you like to start? Excited or excitement or angst?
Well, you God, you like you have to ask with me. Let’s Let’s start with the excitement with the the guy that was advocating for for this uh in our private chats. What what I like about Lonzo is I really do think that he’s rounded out his game well. Uh he’s now a career 39% three-point shooter. He plays well off ball. Obviously, you know, he had a hell of a story after not playing for two years coming back. Uh even though he did have a season ending wrist injury, I do think it’s interesting that as an expiring contract, he had a lot he had a big market at the trade deadline, right? Like there was reporting that Marcus Smart in a first round pick was offered for him. um you know the just because of that that expiring contract, but it at least gives me some encouragement that it wasn’t an issue that came up again with the knee uh after playing those 35 games that that wasn’t something that came up. It was a risk thing that sidelined him. But what I like in addition to the size and the playmaking, which we know he brings, he’s going to bring more activity on the defensive end. A and I think we both talked about how the Cavs just kind of felt like they stayed in their base a little too often and didn’t make teams feel uncomfortable. Whereas when you play Indiana, when you play Oklahoma City, they would really make you feel uncomfortable. And I think the best way to capture that is looking at the stock numbers. Lonzo had 18 games where he had at least two stocks. So for those that don’t know, that’s shorthand for steals and blocks, some combination of the two. Isaac Ooro, he played 20 games more than Lonzo and he had half as many games with multiple stocks. He he had nine games compared to Lonzo’s 18 in 55 games played versus 35 played games. Lonzo is just a more active defender. And when you look at the the synergy tracking data uh courtesy of Basketball Index, he actually rated higher in uh isolation perimeter defense. He was a 91st percentile isolation perimeter defender while Okoro was in the 89th. A bit of a step back from where he was the year prior. Uh he was worse though on ball screens. He was only 51st uh compared to 93rd for Okoro. He was terrific there. But the flip side of that is he was 89th when it came to passing lane defense, getting those deflections, getting those steals, activity in the passing lanes. While Okoro was down at the 32nd. That’s a tradeoff I’m comfortable making because I think the backline defense for the Cavs has been so consistently good that I want someone that’s going to go out there and create havoc on the perimeter. Yeah, I think it’s really interesting. Uh, one thing I’ll say is like whenever I’m looking through those, a lot of the ball screen navigation data, I wonder how much is influenced by your wider team defense. like it is just harder to navigate ball screens when you know you got Nick Vousvich on your backline and not Evan Moley or Jared Allen, you know. And and conversely, it’s just a heck of a lot easier. You can, you know, you can maybe go a little take a wider angle around the top uh if you’re trying to go over uh knowing that you’ve got someone hanging in the drop that’s going to protect you or that can switch aly. you know, you could just do riskier stuff and get burned for it less often in that in that setting. So, that’s one thing I think is notable. One thing I think, you know, and I don’t want to do like a huge eulogy of the Isaac era in Cleveland, which, you know, certainly had its ups and downs and unfortunately just never got to the heights you were hoping for it to get to. Y
um but like something I think you could really note is like the fact that you know a guy like Lonzo is right now better as an ISO defender like kind of does underscore like where the Okoro era maybe didn’t miss maybe missed the mark a little bit like he was a very good defensive isolation player. he kind of needed to be like a Dort level level defensive player given some of the shooting deficiencies and the dribbling deficiencies that we saw with him. So, the fact that you’re not really having a major drop off in in in those minutes there makes me feel good. But I think you’re spot on to say the passing lane stuff is what matters. I feel like the Cavs are just like like it it’s been time for them to become an event defending team. Uh they I mean how many times did we ding O Coral for that of like hey it’s great that you don’t foul and you try real hard and you stay in front of the guys and you always contest every shot. But you know who makes contested shots a lot? NBA players. Like like
it just wasn’t filling up the box. Sometimes you need to meaningfully mess up the rhythm of what they’re doing in the form of deflections, steals, blocks, and and not just and I think it’s not just those plays in the box score, it’s the threat of them. You know, every time a big man catches the ball on a roll against the Oklahoma City Thunder, his head is on a swivel waiting to see who’s going to dig down to try to rip the ball away. You can’t tell me that doesn’t affect finishing.
You can’t You can’t tell me that doesn’t affect the way that they see uh you know, pocket passes to a guy roaming in the dunker spot. Like,
it also just makes you more uncomfortable when you’re getting into your offensive set, right? Like if you have to if you’re not in rhythm and if you have to take a a step to the right more so than you were planning to because someone’s jumping the passing lane, all of that stuff has a compounding effect when it comes to the effectiveness of your offense. Sorry to cut you off.
No, no, it’s exactly what I was going to say. Like I’ve talked a lot about how like expected field goal percentage is great, but I care a lot more about how you know how they got to catching the ball to shoot than the contest itself sometimes. like if you’re getting bumped or you’re like having to protect the ball in a weird way on the way to the hoop because you’re because you know Lonzo’s hands are going to be in there trying to trying to rip you. Like I just think that sometimes matters more than someone riding your hip all the way to the hoop like Okoro can do. Like and there are going to be matchups like you know I’ve always felt like like Okoro was like built in a lab to guard Dame Lillard peak Dame Lillard and he did great in those matchups almost every time.
Yeah. Same goes with Brunson.
And I think you’ll lose a little bit off the top there with a guy like Lonzo who’s going to be a little bit more foulrone by comparison who’s going to take more gamles and things like that. But like I do think you’re not losing a tremendous amount for what you’re gaining.
Yeah. And you know, you you mentioned how Okoro was good but not elite when it came to perimeter defense last year. It definitely felt like he took a step back. And when you look at the prior years, like he was 99th percentile in both perimeter and ball screen in 2024. He was 99th uh the year prior in perimeter defense. I think he was 97th uh the year prior in perimeter defense. it just felt like there wasn’t the same level of impact this year. And I I know a bit of a turning point was when he got hurt against OKC. Uh the the shot kind of fell off. He was really finding a rhythm with the starters. But I I just think it the reason why the Giddy parallel is is interesting to me is not only were both of them picked high, right? Like Okoro fifth overall, Giddy was sixth overall by OKC. It just felt like both teams kind of got good quicker than expected after having them and their development consistency of role kind of fell to the wayside to some extent. Like I think ideally if you were going to optimize what Isaac or Cororo could bring to the table, I think he’d be playing more shooting guard. I I think he would be playing more guard defense, but the presence of Donovan Mitchell meant that he’s moving over to small forward a little bit more, right? And all of a sudden you have the emergence of Tai Jerome. Sam Merrill has a terrific season for the Cavs and it just it there was not that consistency of role and that just happens. That’s why you can’t have you know eight nine development projects at the same time because you have to pick and choose who you’re going to prioritize and I think the Cavs did a great job in terms of developing his outside shot. Like I I think the percentages got consistently better there. he was able to to hit those shots, but I think the lack of structure and consistency with his role contributed to the indecision. And I I think going into this year’s playoffs where you saw that indecision in the playoffs that like that’s on him. like it it really is on him because I thought why I I was confident going into this year compared to to last year why I wanted to see another year of Okoro was I wanted to see what it looked like when he wasn’t just being put in the corner when he’s not being parked in the corner and I thought throughout the year he was used a lot better you know those ball screens the passing out of the short roll we we saw more activity we saw him contribute on the boards and then that didn’t happen in the playoffs and and I think you know he has to have the majority majority of the responsibility there. I you know I I I think we’ve been pretty consistent where we don’t tend to blame the coach because I I think the majority does come on the players and when he’s turning down open shots you can’t be that way. I think some of the value of Sam Merrill compared to some of these other role players is he’s not turning down those open shots. I think he’s a little more streaky of a shooter than people acknowledge. But indecision seems to be something that the Cavs are trying to weed out. And I I think in making these moves, they are adding two players that are incredibly cerebral and incredibly decisive when it comes to Larry Nance Jr. and Lonzo Ball. And to me, you know, having not talked to anyone in the organization, that seems to be one of the takeaways uh from these transactions.
Yeah. not just indecision, but also just like dynamicism, you know, like if if guys weren’t guarding Okoro from three and he wasn’t feeling good about the jumper and it didn’t look good, like he just didn’t have the on ball juice to do a ton with it. And you know, like I think Lonzo, if he can, you know, beat a closeout or can you know, he’s going to attack and kind of keep the thing moving. We’re not gonna have the record scratches with a guy like that. Like he’s just constantly in motion. He’s getting off the ball quick. He’s not an he’s not a two fa feet in the paint kind of guy, but like even if you look at, you know, he didn’t have a great shooting season last uh last year in his comeback season, but if you look at the the diet of shots he was taking, it was a lot of lot of pull-ups,
a lot of wing and above the break threes, a lot of semicontested threes, stuff you just didn’t see a lot of from Isaac, if we’re really being honest. like the shot diet is just different. The attack diet is different. And I do think that’s where I want to go to next in terms of what I’m excited about, which is the on the offensive side of the ball, which is that he just moves, man. He’s just kind of getting the ball. He He is pushing. He gets off the ball very very quickly. And I really think a player in that mold helps against a ball pressure defense like Indie where you know something Steve Jones from the dunker spot always hits the Cavs for rightfully so is when they get pressured at their worst they’ll do the spend 7 seconds getting it across half court and once they do they go and they breathe for two to three seconds while they try to get things set up and then oh by oh all of a sudden there’s 13 seconds left before your action starts. I don’t think that’s going to be a problem with Lonzo. Uh he is a pace machine. Uh and always has been. Uh even last year he was. Uh he is a guy who pushes pushes pushes, gets off the ball quickly, gets that gets teams into their offense quickly, looks to find guys to catch with advantage early in the shot clock. So, I think that plus the more dynamic shooting profile, like is he gonna shoot like Tai Jerome shot last year? I would be I’d fall out of my chair if he shot as well as Tai shot last year, but the types of shots he takes, at least from three, are similarly audacious. Maybe not quite as audacious, but like you’re kind of getting a little
shots in the league. Like I think if you’re looking for a reason for regression, it was he wasn’t generating space on his shots all season long. He just happened to hit them and then the playoffs came and he stopped hitting them against Indie.
Yeah. But like I guess what I’m saying is like your shot diet isn’t going to doesn’t need to change that much. Like he still will take those shots when he’s playing that backup one role. He just probably won’t make as many. Um which you know again almost no one made as many as Tai last year. So that’s not uh it’s not like a black black mark on him. Anything else on offense that you’re excited about?
I just like because, you know, one of my gripes was the three guard lineup and the data never really even support that though. Like those lineups did work really well, I just felt like it wasn’t something that was sustainable for the playoffs. So even though it was something that could be a innings heater throughout the regular season, I had concerns about how it was going to translate. I like that I don’t have to worry about that with Lonzo Ball. Like if the C if if Kenny goes out there and he has Darius Donovan and Lonzo whe whether that’s with both bigs or with like DeAndre Hunter at the four, I’m comfortable with that. Lonzo’s 67, he’s dynamic. Uh if teams start to blitz Darius and Donovan and try to get the ball out of their hands, I’m okay with swinging it to Lonzo because he’s either going to find uh you know someone for a lob. He he’s going to to make the right play in those situations. He’s going to be able to take pressure off those guys. And I think that is absolutely essential. I think he’s going to help up the tempo as well with his hit ahead passes. Uh he’s someone that that always has his head up and knows where everybody is on the court and is a great communicator. Those are are things that I really really value and I’m I’m excited to see what he can bring to the table if he is healthy. But the one thing I’ll note is you said him in the backup one role. I want to go back to where we were two years ago where I think functionally it’s going to be Darius and Donovan playing point guard. I you know maybe you want to call Lonzo the the backup point guard to some extent. I would rather have Donovan being the primary ball handler there playing off of Lonzo. One, because you’re going to have games where Lonzo is out of the lineup that you you might have, you know, 30 games that he misses in the season, uh whether it’s for for rest or or maintenance playing it safe so that he’s healthy for the playoffs. You don’t want to become reliant on having Lonzo out there. I think you want to have that continuity of system no matter what. I just think, you know, having Lonzo stay in this offball role that he’s thrived in, that he’s played really, really well in, whether it was off of Drew Holiday or or whomever in New Orleans, uh, playing off of Kobe White or IO Dumo in Chicago. I I’m comfortable with him kind of being in that offg guard role. I maybe it’s, you know, semantics, but that’s just something that’s kind of come to my head as I’m thinking this through. That’s where I’ll argue a little bit because I do think this is a bit of a semantic argument because like I he’s gonna play the minutes that Darius doesn’t play. So like he’s kind of gonna be the de facto backup one. And I think that makes a lot of sense. Um, and I think that even with Donovan, I’m like, here’s no matter who if you have a Donovan Mitchell, no one if your definition is Donovan’s going to bring the ball up sometimes and run a lot of offense, well, then no one plays the one, right? Like, like I and that’s why I would argue with, you know, a little bit semantically. And I think it’s valuable to have Lonzo initiate some sets to get the Cavs into their offense sometimes even with Donovan on the floor knowing how good Donovan is when someone is setting the table for him.
How much easier Donovan’s life looks
when he’s got someone getting him the ball with advantage. And I think Lonzo is gonna be able to do that. Um, you know, maybe more often than Tai just because of the differences in style. So, in that way, I think he is going to be their backup one. So, I would argue a little bit with that semantic argument, but that does take me to some of my concerns if if that’s okay.
Well, I I just want to say there is a real value to to him being out there making things easier for people just like Zoomi companion makes things easier for us, Carter, cuz only you can do your best work. ZoomAI Companion can help you do the rest like automatically taking notes, answering meeting questions, and helping you respond to your coworker. Available at no additional cost with eligible pay plans, we’re happy with Zoomi companion. What are your concerns? All right. Well, I mean, I don’t know about concerns as much as just like I think these are like functional facts. If you are someone who really loved how Tai Jerome got downhill, got two feet in the paint, uh Lonzo ain’t doing that right now. uh both as a scorer and even as a passer.
Uh if you look at reels of his assists from last season,
almost all of them come from him behind the three-point line. Uh he is not a pick and roll. He’s not going to spam pick and roll and turn the corner, get into the teeth of the defense and drive and kick. He’s not that kind of point guard. uh even less than Ricky was uh in that half year where he was like, you know, Ricky was getting downhill. He just wasn’t finishing a ton. Like Lonzo just doesn’t really get downhill the way and he really never was. But I would say it’s even more pronounced now. Like he if he has a clear lane to the basket, he can get to the hoop and dunk. But he is most of his field goal attempts were three-point attempts. um and you know and and you know floaters and mid-rangers uh but really mostly his initiation comes from outside of that three-point arc. And knowing that DeAndre can be a little floaty, you know, he’s not a a super downhill player, I do think that the Cavs are going to need to go out of their way to be a downhill attacking team. And
whether that comes in the form of Lonzo setting up guys on the move for for clean buckets, whether that’s the form of more initiation for Evan and having him just attack mismatches and and mash in the post or use his handle to beat guys off the bounce. Like I do think they’re going to have to kind of go out of their way to get downhill because it is not just going to Lonzo isn’t going to provide that for them, right? Yeah. No, I I I think that that’s valid. And I’m really really curious to see how Kenny uses the rotation because I I think part of why we wanted Larry Nance Jr. was because we felt like a four was needed to give them lineup versatility and and Larry can play both the four and the five. I think that is the ideal fit. Uh because I don’t think you want someone you might want to have a third string five uh for emergency, but I don’t think you want to have a true backup four that expects to play and a true backup five that expects to play because then that’s going to take away from Evan Mobley playing at the five, right? Um so I like having Larry Nance Jr. here because you look at how the Cavs minutes were distributed after the All-Star break last year. Tai played 22, Sam played 21, Okoro played 19, and De played 19. If we are assuming that Sam stays, you know, basically the same at 20 minutes per game, uh, obviously Max and Hunter, uh, they’re 2625. I think those are going to be steady. I think they’ll play around the same number of minutes. You basically have those Tai Jerome, uh, Okoro and Dean Wade minutes to to play with. And that’s 60 minutes total. I think Larry and Lonzo are probably going to get 20-minute chunks of that. And that leaves you 20 minutes to basically kind of decide how you want to play. And if you want to be different than you were last year, right, you could in theory play Dean Wade with Larry Nance Jr. and just go really big. Uh if Larry’s playing those minutes consistently at packup power forward, that means DeAndre Hunter is going to be playing significantly more small forward than he did last year. Something I think both of us wanted to see, whether it was coming in off the bench or whether it was within the starting lineup. So basically, you have a decision to make. If we’re assuming Larry and Lonzo are getting two of those uh 20 minute chunks, you have 20 minutes to basically give out to either Dean Wade to Jaylen Tyson, uh Tyrese Proctor or Craig Porter Jr. If you’re giving it to like Craig Porter Jr., you’re basically doing what the rotation was last year, just Lonzo having the ooral role, Larry taking the Wade role, and then Craig would take functionally the tie role. I’m going to be interested to see does Kenny change it up depending on the matchup. Do we have kind of a base lineup? I understand all of these guys are going to get opportunities throughout the season because in all reality, guys are going to miss time, but when we’re fully healthy, are we going to see Kenny change things up a little bit more now that he has the levers to pull to change how the team feels on both ends of the floor? Yeah, it’s going to be uh a real doozy to figure out what he does cuz like again they right now you could make them look real different or you could make them look to your point very similar. Uh and I honestly think more than Lonzo. Well, as much as Lonzo. I I I wanted to go hyperbolic for the podcast, but I’ll go and this might even be hyperbole to some. I think Larry can change the feel of this team as much as Lonzo might
and given the resources, you know, reported resources to acquire both that, you know, might come as a surprise. I am Justin, I I am over the moon at this edition. Uh,
it’s not just because I think Larry’s a good dude, which I do. uh if you remember, he he supported uh a ton of local Cleveland businesses during the pandemic when things were really rough and was doing promotion and financial support and all this cool stuff. Uh not not just cuz I think he’s a good dude. Not just cuz I think he’s a fit within the locker room culture that the team has,
he came on the podcast a couple times.
Yeah. And because he’s a friend of the pod. No big deal. Uh but because I just think his skill set is exactly what this team has needed from a bench big for years. Um I have been pining for a four five. Uh and Larry fits that mold perfectly. I have been pining for more shooting uh for stretch five minutes on occasion. Larry fits that bill. He shot 44% I think from three last year on volume. like it looked really really good even though he also took you know had took his injury lumps.
Um
his defensive metrics I was wondering if maybe those took a hit. You know he’s a little older. You know he was always a bouncy kind of player and relied on that all really really good still. Uh still like a guy who helps your defense at every level of the floor. And I think the difference he provides is the is that he more than all that cuz like they had plenty of bigs with good defensive metrics. Dean’s defensive metrics were great last year.
Deans are stronger than Larry’s.
Yeah. And and but the ability to operate in the middle of the floor [Music] is so strong for Larry still. um the ability to catch the ball in the short roll and do something with it. Whether it is a or or just or like be a release valve for a trap and be able to turn face the basket and make a good decision is so strong. He’s always been a very very strong passer. A better passer than I think his assist numbers have ever reflected.
Um he’s just has really really good feel. Similar to Lonzo, he is not going to pound the rock, he’s not going to record scratch. He is going, even if he catches the ball in the middle of the floor and doesn’t have an advantage, he’s not going to sit and survey. He’s going to catch. He’s going to dribble straight into a dribble handoff.
He’s going to force the defender to make a decision. You’re going to have to come up and defend that dribble handoff. You’re going to have to defend whatever he’s doing.
Yeah. The the the time before decision uh you know uh per play for Larry is really really low. Uh, and that’s really, really exciting. Uh, he’s still got a very healthy amount of a vertical pop. Uh, he had, hold on, lost it. Lost it. Give me a second.
Uh, he had 45 dunks last year still.
In how many games?
Uh, in like 30 games or something like that.
Um, you know, like and by comparison, someone like Dean, he he had six six dunks last year. Uh 22% of Larry’s field goals were dunks. That’s 20th in the league. And that’s not because he’s a dominant role man in the pick and roll. Those are slipping into empty space, running in transition, just being a good cerebral player in playing next to a guard in Trey Young who does a great job of destabilizing defenses. Lucky for Larry, he’s got a bunch of those guys in Cleveland uh in Darius and Donovan that are going to be doing that a lot. plus a very very strong passing big in Evan Mobley. So
I’m excited for the mentorship there. I I think having Larry and Neans here is going to be really really important. I think he can give him a perspective that like someone like Tristan just can’t.
I think that pop as a finisher and and decision maker is just something they haven’t had for a long time. And he allows them to play big but have small strengths. You know, the kind of playmaking strength and to your biggest point, he makes it really easy to play DeAndre at the three.
Yeah. Um and I just I’m so excited about this. I I thought sometimes when you kind of have your eye on a guy for a while like Larry, uh you kind of go through the curve where you kind of make a you mythologize them a little bit and then when you actually dig in you go I mean he’s we’ll see, you know, like and I kind of wondered if I’d feel that way because we haven’t had Larry around for a long time. He had an injury riddled last year in Atlanta. I knew he had
You were wondering if this was your Harry Giles love affair.
Yeah, sure. I mean, maybe. I mean, I always knew that one was silly, but uh but like, you know, you never know. And I left I left this more sure that he is going to be a consistent rotation player for this team. I think he is a much better player than you know, the reported salary that he signed for. I just think he is a winning basketball player who does not suffer from the is he out there syndrome that role players can sometimes suffer from.
Yep. And I I think it’s important to note too with his games played he he did have that injury at the end of the year but he was catching some uh coaches decisions earlier on just because Atlanta had so many young guys that they were playing at the position. They were trying to make decisions in in terms of you know who they’re going to keep, who they’re going to move on for. And it was driving me nuts even then I was like he is better than some of the guys who were getting minutes in front of him.
Well because like we were watching really closely because the fact that we thought okay like you know these guys are getting play over him. Is this going to be a buyout situation? And when he went on the court I thought he was playing some of the best basketball of his career. I thought he was playing with poise and maturity that uh was exceeded what we had seen even back when he was in Cleveland. Even if you know they just taken a little bit of that athleticism away. Uh, I I just think he is a terrific fit and I think he is going to help us find out more about what Kenny values because I I think last year where DeAndre was primarily playing backup power forward. Was that because Kenny sees him as a power forward more than any other position? Or was it a hey, you know, I don’t trust Dean in these spots to the same extent that I trust Ty Drum and Sam Merrill. So, I’m going to prioritize giving the guards more minutes here because I think DeAndre can functionally play that backup power forward position and this is the way I can balance a rotation. Now that you don’t have the same depth at guard and it’s been reallocated to the front court, are we going to see Hunter play more three? Are we going to see him play four? And Larry’s, you know, uh, his role is reduced to some extent. We we know, you know, from that Atlanta experience, he is someone that is willing to sacrifice for the team if the matchup calls for it or whatever the case may be. But I I think that optionality is going to allow us to get more information on the coaching decisions that we were making assumptions on. And I think we were making assumptions on how Kenny prefer prefers to use DeAndre Hunter. I’m actually going to be really really interested to see how the the Hunter situation shakes out because I think there are merits to still bringing him in off the bench. I know that that is a zag for me because last year I really wanted to see him with the starting lineup just because Max keeps the ball moving and without Tai Jerome, you need someone to be that bench scorer and you’re going to need that pop in the bench and you want to get Evan Mobley more involved in the offense. But at the same time, if DeAndre is out there with the starters, if you want to get Evan Mobley involved, get him the damn ball. It doesn’t matter if everyone’s a great playmaker or not. You can find ways to to get the the guy the the shots. And I don’t think you have to take talent off of the floor in order to empower someone that’s as talented as Evan Mobley. So, I’m going to be interested to see how Kenny approaches that. But really, who he chooses to occupy those last kind of unspoken for 20 minutes is going to be really interesting because I could see, you know, Jaylen Tyson is actually a great example because Jaylen Tyson, I really liked him as a small ball four. I think naturally he he’s a three more than any other position, but we also saw him play in college a lot of lead guard and initiator. I think you could go either way when when you’re deciding what that role is going to be for Jaylen Tyson. Maybe he takes the icicle coral role and provides some uh you know ball handling and initiation or they use him as a hustle guy. Maybe they use Tyrese Proctor if he’s a ahead of the curve. And actually that transitions to me asking you about Tyresese Proctor because you haven’t had the opportunity to talk about
Can I Can I ask you one Larry question before we transition?
Uh which big because we talked about all the things we’re really excited about. I think it’s fair to say the one thing that um that maybe we’re a little nervous about uh our our boy DH in the Discord did did some lineup data polling and while we’re saying he’s a four five Atlanta’s offense did not look good when he played the four last year
and small sample size lineup data is always shaky until you hit a pretty mondo sample so and what I’ve watched doesn’t really track with that
however It’s uh worth noting that that’s true. Are you looking to play more of his minutes at the four next to Evan if you’re going to do it rather than playing him with Jared knowing that Evan can make up for some of the dynamicism you lose? Yeah, I I think I would. Um the thing I’ll mention at least when we’re looking at the full season sample when you look at kind of openness ratings and who got ignored most uh by defenses last year Dean Wade was more ignored than Isaac Okoro even on the perimeter and you know I know we think of him as a stretcher but I think teams were conceding a lot when it came to Dean Wade. I think Larry you have to play up on him more because of his decisiveness as a playmaker because of what he’s able to generate. Uh the the three-point numbers have been good, but I don’t think it’s at a volume that really changes how defenses defend him. But I I think the playmaking and his ability to, you know, create off the dribble is going to cause teams to not allow him to get that head of steam. So there’s nothing in the skill set that makes me think that this is going to bog down relative to what we’ve had.
Agreed. But, you know, I I think there there’s still validity in looking at those numbers. Even if it is a little wonky, even if the context of Atlanta was was a little weird, I think, you know, it’s worthwhile to worry anytime you you see an older player and there’s some sort of sign like that. So, I I think it’s absolutely a valid thing to pull up. I just I want to see him with Evan. I I just want to see what those guys are able to do. They’re both such cerebral players. Larry lurking in empty space while Evan draws two on the ball. It feels like such a win. I think we’re gonna here here’s a bold prediction.
I think we’re going to see more Evan Moy alley oops to Larry Nance Jr. than we’re going to see to Jared Allen next year. That is a bold prediction. I I
it’s based on nothing.
I was going to say I’m I’m going to disagree just because I think the games played are going to be a little different. Uh but maybe on a per game basis. I I I could see that. I I’m at least I’m excited to see Larry get some highlights in the current threads because I love our new jerseys so much more than like that the gray to land one did not land for me at all. Uh pardon the pun. That was not intentional. Um but I really like our current jersey set. I want to see some Larry highlights in it.
I was really encouraged at how many posters he still threw down last year. Uh he still gets up there. Um, and you know, I I was wondering if cuz finishing has never been his strongest suit outside of dunking. You know, it’s not the cleanest uh, you know, layup package that you’ve ever seen. Uh, but like the fact that he’s still getting up there means that
you know, your margin for error goes down when all you got to do is dunk.
Yep. It’s very, very true. I’m I’m so excited to have Larry back and, you know, we still don’t have a complete picture of what the Ross is going to look like. they still have to sign at least one more player uh before this season’s over. Uh we have the Joe Varden report that there’s a lot of teams expressing interest in Dean Wade as well on the trade market. Um so that that’s something that I’m sure that they’re going to weigh. Again, it’s tricky when you look at players that make less than Dean Wade. Uh that that would be an option in a player for player swap. It’s just difficult. And Keith Smith helped highlight how difficult it is to aggregate salaries. I don’t think that they are aggregating salaries and getting under the second apron to facilitate a Dean Wade trade. Um, so there is still work to be done. It’ll be interesting to see what direction they go, whether they try to add a combo guard to to just have some depth there or if they bring in a bigger two. Uh, that’ll be really really fascinating. But I want to get your thoughts on Tyrese Proctor Carter cuz I absolutely got sold by Steven Gillespie and and all the uh the draft experts that I’ve been binging. Sam Vini absolutely loves the addition of it. He He actually loves our off seasonason in general. He had a good segment there on game theory. Uh what are your thoughts on Tyrese Proctor?
Uh I am interested. I’m intrigued. Uh and I think uh the other the it just kind of goes to the macro theme. You know, again, you look at what lessons Kobe chose to learn. Kobe in the front office chose to learn from this this last season. does seem like they want guys to be able to do something in the middle of the floor when they have the ball, you know, no record scratches, no threes or wide open dunks or nothing like and Proctor fits that mold, you know, he is a, you know, he’s not a point guard. um you know uh like I think Duke kind of found that over time where they found him having more success as they moved him off ball, but he’s got some point guard skills uh both in the form of his pull-up three-point shooting game, but even as a pull-up mid-range shooter. Um, I I go back to like how noteworthy it felt when the Cavs signed Marcus Morris on that buyout where it was like, oh, a forward, you know, one of their role players that can pump fake a three, take a, you know, get a flyby and take a wide open midi and feels pretty good. Like, they just didn’t have a lot of that uh from their from their uh from their uh you even that’s not even something that you feel great about Merryill doing, you know? Like Merryill is a three-point guy. He takes like 15 two-point field goal attempts a year. And while Proctor is not a get to the rim and finish guy, that’s not really his game. Uh the the the being able to hit up being a really solid pull-up mid-range shooter is interesting if the three-point volume in percentages look more like they did his junior year at Duke than they did his freshman year at Duke. uh he wasn’t that great of a shooter his first year. So, I never know what to make of that. Like sometimes I wonder, well, maybe you’re working really hard, but your talent isn’t that high or, you know, or did you have something mechanical that you fixed? I’ll never know, right? And I certainly don’t know about Tyrese Proctor, who I I’ve not tracked closely enough to have that kind of opinion on, but I like that he can do a little bit of everything. I like former point guards even if you found that they, you know, same with Jaylen Tyson where it’s like we kind of learned from the tape that we don’t want Jaylen Tyson to be an everyday, you know, run 60 pick and rolls a game kind of role player at the next level, but knowing that he did it a little bit informs him being a better role player at the next level, knowing that he can make it he’s he has reps making those decisions. I kind of feel the same way about Proctor. Yeah, he he made some really impressive passes. Like I I think his playmaking is a level above what what we have with Jaylen Tyson. I want to give a shout out to Danny Cunningham who had uh a guest from Locked on Blue Devils on to kind of break down uh Proctor’s game and I thought he made a really valid point about you know that freshman year which was basically you know there’s the opportunity to come to to college a year later and if he did so and if he didn’t have that freshman year tape he that might have impacted his draft stock right because it’s not often a guy comes back goes back to school for one more year uh you look at the the big boards and stuff like that there thought that he could be a lottery pick at that point. It’s not often that a guy takes a step forward, uh, has, you know, a more efficient season, irons out the three-point shot, becomes a great three-point shooter, and doesn’t improve his draft stock. And I think some of that is the concerns about, you know, just what that ceiling is. Um, but I’m going to you you had all your fun with your spicy takes. I’m going to have a spicy take here. I I think Proctor’s going to have more impact next year than Jaylen Tyson. I was going to ask you that.
Yeah. I And the reason for that is not because I’m low on Jaylen Tyson. I think you know that I really like what he brings to the table. I just think it’s easier for guards to translate what they do to the NBA. When when you have a handle, especially ones that don’t have questions about the three-point shot, like I I think he is absolutely a shooter and he projects to be a good defensive player. I think it is easier for guards to step into the NBA and have an impact than it is for Wings. there there’s just a higher standard when it comes to wings. You’re playing against such dynamic players. You’re it’s a feeling out process. You have to modify your game, right? Like Jaylen Tyson goes from a primary initiator to playing off ball when Proctor gets his minutes cuz he’s going to have to with with guys missing time and whatnot. Like I I think he’s just going to play at some point. It’s not going to be too dissimilar to what his role is supposed to be and what his role was with Duke. And I I think that that’s going to make that transition easier. And even though, you know, he was a second round pick, we saw Craig Porter Jr. come in as an undrafted player and have be a good minute eater in his rookie year. Like I I think you can get 500 minutes from Tyrese Proctor this season and it might feel pretty decent. Like I I I think that there there’s real potential there. And um you know, I just like the fact that he is a two-way player with good size, with good length, and can shoot the hell out of the basketball. Like I I think that those are those are traits that I really do value and I I’ve seen enough
passes to think, hey, you know, may maybe that this is going to be a good fit for what the Cavs need. Uh because, you know, I’m all about the playmaking at this point. Yeah, I uh I definitely feel like, you know, I was trying to find, you know, because again, he fell to the second round for a reason. And I was trying to find like a comp, you know, just in my brain of like who’s a guy like this that like, you know, didn’t work out. And I was thinking of older older guard in college, marquee program really started to pop once he started playing with really really talented players. I was thinking about like a guy like Quinn Cook, you know, who was an older Duke player,
played with some great teams, had some pop, and had and like if that’s in like and I was like that’s probably like the floor of what I would hope for for Proctor, you know, is like a guy who maybe can play a few games every now and again. Yeah.
Uh, and overall help. But then I was thinking like Proctor is 4 in taller than Quinn Cook was, you know, a much better uh, you know, prospect in terms of just his size. You know, Quinn Cook like and and and I do think I I’m similarly dreaming some big dreams. I really need to see him at at the summer league level because
I do too. Yeah. Uh I I think we’re going to learn a little bit about where his athleticism is at the summer league level cuz he his performance like what I see from him a as a finisher and stuff is that he he doesn’t maybe finish as athletically as I think he moves, you know? Yeah. Like like when he gets in the open court, he can dunk with ease. It looks nice and easy, but then his finishing numbers don’t really reflect that. So, I want to kind of see where the functional athleticism meets meets uh you know, the basketball athleticism. It’s
one of the coolest things about basketball is those things don’t always align. And uh I want to see that. I think summer league, seeing how he looks physically out there uh will do a lot for telling me what I think he’s going to be able to contribute next year. Yeah, th that matters to me more than the the shooting splits. And I I know I brought that up in the podcast I had with Stephen where I was like it doesn’t seem like he creates space as well as his athleticism would lead you to believe. Is that something that he can build upon? And I’m I’m going to be really interested to see is there room for growth there when you get with NBA trainers, when you iron out everything with your footwork, uh you refine your skill set, are you able to build upon that? But the the skill set is really really interesting. Having that size, having that length, having good defensive instincts, having good instincts as a passer, being able to shoot, like that’s what the Cavs absolutely need. And if this is, you know, this might be part of the gamble, right? We’re we’re going to find out pretty early in the season uh what their plans are for him at least to to start the year. Is this someone that they’re going to integrate sooner than we’ve seen with some of these other young players, or is this someone that they have long-term plans with? But um you know when Kobe talks about we have faith in our development, we have faith in our system in in our scouting to identify these guys. Maybe this was part of the gamble that we just didn’t predict and he ends up being like a pods in Golden State or or some of these other guys that come in Jame Hakas young players that that step in and have an impact on good teams early on in their careers. It it certainly happens with second round picks.
Yeah. And I think the Cavs have a he’s it’s a great spot for him. Uh uh you know, I think if I’m Tyrese Proctor’s representation, I’m geeked about landing here. A place where I’m going to get a deal. Not going to get pressed into a two-way. I’m going to land on a contending team that uh you know has all the on ball juice and all the creation. And I really can kind of play the way I played at Duke last year. And like that’s a nice smooth
with four NBA players just like they will here. That’s a soft onboard as soft of an onboard as you’re going to get in into the league. So big shouts to him. Uh Justin, I’m going to do a very rare thing here uh and and suggest uh an hour 10 into the podcast that we do one more segment.
Okay. I I was going to wrap, but we we can do one more. But I just The rundown was over. So I wanted to I wanted to make sure I before you started wrapping, I wanted to throw it out there. I have one more thought on when it comes to Proctor. I like having another Australian on this team. When when I look at our downloads, Australia is the number two country behind the US. They are sickos. They love
We love Australia.
We absolutely love you guys. So, shout out to all of our Australian listeners cuz you guys are the best. Absolutely. Especially those in our Discord uh who uh who are yapping with us uh in the middle of the night their time often times. Um all right, last thing. And I was like, we don’t have it in a rundown, but I was like, we kind of probably should just because we go a week between these things. If the if the C the Cavs do have one more roster spot, um, based on the current crop of free agents, do give me a top three of guys you would be most excited to see.
I think I still want him big. I think I’ I’d want to sign like a Chris Boucher. That’s probably reflective of why you’re excited about Proctor. you know, you’re excited enough about Proctor that you go, let’s size up.
Yeah. Not not only him, but hey, let’s, you know, maybe use Jaylen Tyson in the Accora role. Like, let’s let’s use this depth. Let’s continue to make moves that are going to make us larger because, you know, you’re going to concede size when it comes to Darius Garland and Donna Mitchell. Let’s not do it with our other roster decisions is basically the the crux of of what I’m getting after. Like I I wouldn’t have minded a big combo guard uh like you know Spencer Denwitty on the market, Malcolm Brogden. I wouldn’t be opposed to those types of moves, but I I think you know what?
So So what’s what’s the list right now?
Definitely be up there.
Give me top three.
Rank them. See, I didn’t prep for this and and you know I’m I’m
Would you like me to go first?
Yes.
Would that be helpful? All right. I’m actually going to not count El Horford because I think it’s just not happening.
So that’s a I think Horford is the dream acquisition here. So, I’m just going to put him off to the side because I don’t think it’s going to happen. I’m going to go um Chris Bucher. Uh I’ve always liked him. I like the shot blocking. I I think the three-point volume has gotten up and up and up and I just I’ve always been interested in him as an archetype for this team. Nance top. Nance kind of cuts down on that a little bit because it just gets a little little tight, but I do like that. then the talent of the talent perspective of Brogden trumps any of my because like that guy is gonna be a rotation player for us. Uh I still think even in Washington last year still just a super help super helpful like grown adult. He helps insulate you. You know, it’s funny like you just have all these like layers of redundancy uh in case people get hurt and like Yeah, he’s not the picture of health health himself, but between him and Lonzo, you’re hoping to get around 82 games at minimum. Uh
can I stop you before your third because I I have the same first two and I’m worried that you’re going to have the third and it’s going to sound like a cop.
Oh, you’re not going to? No, we’re not going to have the same third. Okay, I’m I’m going to go Johnny Juang. Uh we don’t have the same third. Why? Why Juang? because he’s young, he’s tall, he can shoot, nice athlete. I I don’t understand what Utah was doing letting him go. I I would like to bring him into the mix. That’s a good grownup uh adult pick. And I’m going to undercut all that by saying I wouldn’t mind being in the Ben sevens business. I know I know you’re not a big fan uh uh to say the least. Uh, I know that’s not your uh not your preferred uh uh kind of guy, but to me it’s some very nice like if you’re if you’re looking for a point guard that uh you know to cover for Lonzo if Lonzo’s out that you know is mostly a three-point line to three-point line kind of player this point in his career. Doesn’t doesn’t really get two feet in the paint. I think he can do a lot of that kind he does a lot of those same connective things on offense. uh while also being a big defender. Still by the metrics a very good defender by the way. Um and then
I would have been good with him with if Larry wasn’t here.
Then he also provides a little Larry Nance insurance. If Larry’s hurt, he can do some of the stuff Larry does.
Play every single game. And Chris Buchet, I think you can sit. Johnny, I think you can sit. Malcolm Brogden, you probably don’t have to sit. Like there there’s a need for him to play. He’s just going to take those Proctor Tyson minutes and and he’s going to fill in when Lonzo misses time and Lonzo’s going to fill in when he misses time and you’re going to hope that both are healthy for the playoffs. I understand all these things are right. I’d still be intrigued. Say all these nice things about Australia and then you and then and then you get me to to to lash out at Ben Simmons. So, you know, this is
I don’t think it’s happening anyway, but I am intrigued.
Of course not.
Yeah. I I I think he is going to want a place where he is guaranteed minutes and Cleveland would certainly not be that. Still have love for all my Australians. I just don’t love the fit of Ben Simmons post Larry Nance Jr. signing, but that’s not going to dampen my enthusiasm over signing Larry Nance Jr. I’m so damn happy that we got him. I am excited about Proctor. I’m excited about summer league. I I want to see how those guys look. I’m going to be out of town for a little bit, so I’m going to miss the majority of summer league games, but I’m absolutely going to be tapping into the highlights and watching them after the fact. and we will be discussing it on this here podcast. Big thanks to everyone that tuned in live on YouTube. We appreciate you guys. Make sure you like and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know when we’re going live. You’re listening via podcast and you want to support us. Leave us a rating a review. Subscribe, unsubscribe, resubscribe and help cook those books. If you want to be part of Chase’s exclusive Discord chat, send a screenshot of our review to chase [email protected]. However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are staying safe out there. Until next time, go Cavs. [Music]

The NBA free agency moratorium is over and the Cavaliers have announced the additions of Lonzo Ball, Larry Nance Jr., Tyrese Proctor and the re-signing of Sam Merrill. Justin and Carter take a deep dive into the Cavaliers new-look roster and weigh in on how they felt about the moves!

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Please Note: The opinions expressed by The Chase Down podcast are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of the Cleveland Cavaliers or its Basketball Operations staff, parent company, or partners.