Bucks Waive Dame, New Look Mavericks, + Michael Jordan & Kobe Blackout Moments with Jim Jackson

Bucks Waive Dame, New Look Mavericks, + Michael Jordan & Kobe Blackout Moments with Jim Jackson

Mike said, “Man, you can’t guard him.” I said, “Mike, you can’t guard me.” End of the game, I end up with 33, right? Mike had 37. We lost. We going through the handshake line and Joe went up to Mike and said, “Man, you leave my young fella alone.” He said, “Man, JJ my guy, but just tell him that’s why he wearing my shoes. [Music] Podcast fam, welcome back to another episode of Podcast P, a wave original. I’m joined by my guys Dallas Rutherford. I’m happy to be here. Let’s just move it along to Jackie now and Jackie Longa wait. [Laughter] Ladies and gentlemen, we never fail to deliver with another special guest. Our guest today is an Ohio State legend. He won UPI National Player of the Year and had his jersey retired by the school. He was selected fourth overall in the 92 NBA draft and went on to have a 14-year career as one of the smoothest scorers. Please welcome our guest, Jim Jackson. Baby, the show OG. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a story mode, but we’re going to do things a little bit different given our guest Jim Jackson is an analyst. So, with that being said, you know, a lot of stuff been going on around the week, the the league. It’s been a busy week. So, we want to get into that as well as, you know, shifting gears on your career and the stories and, you know, the times that you’ve been in the league. So, with that being said, D. Yeah. Fill us in. So, I want to talk with the Dallas Mavericks and I do want to kind of get like a player perspective and then I kind of want to hear your perspective as an analyst. And obviously, uh, the Dallas Mavericks got Cooper flag last week. They’ve put together a nice roster. They just signed DLO. Kyrie’s going to be returning in the spring. And just a couple months ago, you know, Nico was getting a ton of flak for for letting go of Luca. I mean, that was one of the craziest, you know, moves we’ve seen in a while. So, from a players perspective, Pete, with the roster that they have now, I want to know, do you do you think that the Mavericks got better? That’s that’s a tough question with what they gave up, right? like you don’t Luca has done has been for that franchise. Um but when you think about a team being constructed with what Cooper can bring with a healthy Kyrie coming back probably more later second half of the season. DLO’s pro proven to be a veteran point guard. You still got one of the best elite shooters in Clay. Um and then one of the most efficient bigs that we’ve seen in Gaffford. Um, not to mention a top five player in AD. So, um, and with that, their bench is is pretty strong with Naji, with uh, Washington, um, Lively, like they they have a really good roster when healthy and everybody is kind of clicking and I and what I love most about it is as good as Cooper is, he’s not asked to come in right away. And you know what I mean? like he gets to it’s so many like we that’s one of the best things I think a young player can have right regardless of where you’re drafted skill set is good vets around you he’s coming in with some of the best vets that that knows how to win who have won and it’s a culture I think there with Jason Kidd being the coach so man I I like I like what Dallas got they do got everything young the old everything they do I like it from this perspective is that like you said Cooper doesn’t have to come man and kind of the weight of the world is on his shoulder to have to be able to be a rookie, understand the league and win games and get this Mavericks team to a playoffs or wherever it may be. But it’s a couple things too though. If you backtrack and look at the history with Luca and the Mavericks, it always been it’s been some tension a little bit with with Nico and upstairs and when when when it hit, everybody’s like this, you can’t do that. Mhm. But you got to see you got new ownership. That’s not Mark Cuban. Mhm. Right. You know, that’s a this whole different family. Their background is is casinos. Okay. Mhm. They’re making money in a different way. They’re looking at from a holistic business side. And they they’re like, “Hold up. Are we paying 350 million for somebody we can’t trust?” Mhm. And that’s that’s their Nico can’t make that decision, you know, p in in in in his world by himself. Ownership got to sign either they go sign off on if if Nico goes to him and said, “Listen, we really need to sign sign him for 350.” They got to make a decision. Right. Right. Okay. And it goes both ways. So I think he got unfairly criticized for it, but he’s the GM. So when you made the Gaffford trade, when you made the Lively trade, when you got Clay, they patted you on the back. Mhm. When you got Kyrie, they patted you on the back. So when Luca come, you got to take that side of it, too. Mhm. Now you got a a player like I think Cooper Flat, I got a chance to cover him in college. So I got a chance when they played at uh Madison Square Garden in St. John’s and I got him in the tournament. So I got a chance to really watch him play. Mhm. Oh, bro, he nice. But you know what it is? He got a motor. Y I think that’s what separated him and Ace Bailey when they was talking about who’s like kind the best. I think skill set wise they’re right like this can go but Cooper’s motor is a different level and he don’t need to rock. Mhm. Yeah. You know he was John Shri the coach was like man he’s too unselfish. I got to gold him to have to shoot more and be selfish. Cuz he’s just his ment. So I think he his mentality is not like that which is why I think he’ll fit in perfectly with AD, with DLO, with Clay, with those guys because he’ll just add, I think, another layer of playmaking. He can shoot it, he can spread the floor, he can run, he’s athletic without trying to go out there and be rookie of the year. Right. Right. Right. So you’re because I’ve never seen Cooper Flag play, but you’re you’re No, I’ve never seen him play in person. Oh, in person. And I just think that we haven’t had, you know, maybe Zion was touted, but he was more like an athletic freak. Like, do you think when’s the last time we’ve had a player entering the draft of Cooper Flags caliber? I’m curious on your take on that. You know, it’s I I I liken him to a lot like Keith Van Horn, athleticism, size, but a lot like Jason Tatum, too. Like a combination between the two. Okay. Because the people forget how good Keith Van Horn was at Utah coming out of college. They forget about the athletics 610 can run the floor, can shoot it, and now you combine kind of footwork with Jason Tatum, step backs, pivots, and then making plays. To me, I look at that combination and I’m trying to think of who came in at his size at 610 that in the last, let’s say, 10 years. You know, Brandon Ingram is a little bit different. Brandon is not making the same kind of plays that Cooper is making. So that’s why it’s it’s really hard to compare. Jason Tatum, he’s 68. Well, Jason might be 69, right? Yeah. Yeah. T JT up there. Yeah, he up there, right? So he may be as close, you know, with regards to that. But I think the motor in which Cooper has is just different, man. And would you say he’s just as good on the defensive side of the ball? Because when I’m looking at it, it it’s it’s the NBA is a different beast. Of course, there’s there’s better athletes. Everyone more ski is more skilled. And I think the comparison or the the pros and cons of getting rid of Luca has been, look, Luca’s an offensive juggernaut. There’s no question about it, but a lot of people have their doubts on the defensive side of the ball. And here comes Cooper Flag where he’s a two-way player. Do you think that he’s going to be a two-way player in the NBA given how talented everyone in the league is? I I’ll say this, talking to John Sh, head coach at Duke, when they played St. John’s, this had to be maybe December, January, maybe. And a lot of it was him learning his defensive principles at that time as a as a you know, freshman. Okay. Learning those principles. By the time he got to the tournament, the conversation wasn’t the same. he was a better defensive player because his IQ and how he played the game, how he analyzed it and the work he put in. To answer your question, I think he’ll be just fine because he’s surrounded too. You think about it, by Gaffford, by Lively, by AD. Okay. Now, you going to have to and even Clay is not the two-way player he was, but still, it’s just not like Olay. So, he’s going to be surrounded by guys that can cover him until he gets his bearings straight on how to play deep. cuz how you play defense in this league and you were one of the best two-way players in the league. You had to figure out little nuances of how to play not just your guy but different guys you know and different and the way the league is now you’re switching everything right. So, how you guard a a power forward in the wing is going to be different how you guard a point guard. So, all those nuances he’ll learn, man. Yep. The high IQ guys usually do. Like, they figure it out. You know what I mean? Like, they got the ability, natural talent. If the IQ is there, they they going to piece all of that together. You give me a blueprint, cool, I’ll figure it out. Like, I work in between this. You got Jason. What? from a from a defensive perspect perspective. Tell me about that. No, I’m talking about they got J he got Jason kid also. Well, he’s a coach. Yeah. So, he’s he’s in good shape. He got everything. I’m going to move over to the Bucks. And recently, again, we saw Damen Lillard was stretched waved after tearing his Achilles in the playoffs. The move, you know, caught everyone offguard, including him, I’m sure. But it’s another reminder just of how ruthless the business of basketball can be. And I think Melo uh tweeted something. Um I’m not sure what the tweet exactly was, but I think it was that the NBA owners that there’s just no loyalty in the NBA from the ownership side. And just want to get both of your thoughts on, you know, Dame situation and what does the future look like for Dame moving forward after this. I think he’s in because you can look at it two ways, right? You could look at it from and I always go back to owners being smart now with this new CBA and the aprons involved, right? I keep dating back to this apron because when you see them shedding moves and shedding players around, it’s cuz they’re trying to not eat up these salaries and you got a team that no longer, in my eyes, I think are contending when you lose someone like Dame. Um, and so I’m I’m not sure what’s going to happen. We had conversations actually the other day in the gym of like, damn, do Giannis ask for a trade or like what’s the situation going on there? Um, so in one way it’s like, all right, Dame, we’re shedding this money. We’re going to pay your money, but then you get a chance to go and play somewhere and compete for a championship, right? We maybe think the window here is closed. Mhm. You get healthy, you get a chance to go pick where you want to play. But then there’s the side of, you know what I mean? We still believe in you here. We got Giannis, we got a culture, we lost Brooke, but we got a young Brooke and Miles Turner locked in. Um, we can still win here. So, like I I I think of both ways. I always play devil advocate in situations. So, so when you first heard it, when y’all first heard it, what y’all think immediate first thought? I was like, they don’t they only getting rid of him because it’s Achilles. That’s all I That’s all I was saying. And I was hot about it. I thought it was a a little crazy, but again, he’s older. He’s getting injured. Clearly, they’re trying to move on as quickly as possible. They’re trying to cut that rip the band-aid off as soon as possible and move on. That’s what I thought. So, so, and I’m going ask you this question, too. Do you think Giannis had anything to do with it? Well, I I glad you brought that up because I believe bringing in Miles Turner, they it was part of that deal and then a report came out that Giannis was aware of the Miles Turner trade, which therefore would mean that he was aware that Dame was up out of here. So, I think he did know. See, that is interesting. See, think about it. Because here’s the thing about when when you’re a Giannis, a LeBron in that situation that kind of controls the franchise of Steph. A non-answer is as bad as an answer. So if you like the coach is like if they management comes to you and says, “What do you think about coach or we we’re going to do this or we may fire him?” And and your star player is like, “Well, you know, you got to do what you got to do as as organization.” So he’s not saying he he’s not saying no that you got to fire him that you don’t have to fire him or but he’s not saying yes I advocate for so you in that so a lot of times and I’m going to get to your point about loyalty a lot of times it’s like a player being in a situation look I didn’t know I didn’t say anything I didn’t you know I’m upset but did you really advocate advocate to have this person stay or did you just kind of let or the organization when They asked you the question, do what they had to do. And you can’t play that in between. Okay. Now, loyalty ain’t never been no loyalty in the league. So, stop it. Mhm. Never has been, never will be because the bottom line is the bottom line in NBA professional sports. Now, there are outliers. Look at what the Lakers did with Kobe back end of his career. They paid him. Okay, they paid him. Genie Bus took care of him. You always gonna have an outlier in there. Did you think it was a point where we know who Mr. Miami was is DW? What happened there? He had to leave to come back. Allonzo had to leave to come back. Okay. Time and time again, you’re going to see this because I came into this league, bro. Fourth pick in the league. It was a market value. You didn’t have a rookie salary cap. Shaq was one, then Lonzo was two, then Christian Leightton was three. Guess what? I was four. Mavericks didn’t want to pay me. didn’t want to pay me because their draft picks two years before didn’t pan out. I mean, what they got to do with me, right? So, I got the longest hold out ever in the league. Only played 28 games my rookie year. They took all my rookie year, but I wasn’t going to give in. I said, because if you don’t want to pay me, just trade me. Mhm. Or I’m going back to school. So, I learned the business of basketball early. I got criticized for it. I got ostracized for it. Like, how’s this rookie coming in here demanding? And I said, “I ain’t demanding nothing.” I said, “My window of earning money is this, and I’m the fourth pick. I damn sure ain’t taking what the eighth pick got, which they wanted to offer me.” So, I said, “If you don’t want to pay me, I’m not coming.” So, that taught me the business of basketball early on, and I’ve seen it through organizations that I played at and played with where they’ll tell you one thing, okay? They’ll tell you and say one thing, but at the end of the day, it’s the bottom line and organization got to do what they got to do. The one time I would say this when I was in Miami, right, Pat Riley is the man. I was a free agent, went there and played. The next year I was a free agent and he said, he called me, I was living in Dallas. He called me said, “Jimmy, we got to make a move. I think you should be starting, but I got these two rookies we just drafted. I got to see if they can play.” Well, one of them was Dwey. Duh. You know what I’m saying? But he called me and told me, “Yeah, there was relation relationship.” You see what I’m saying? He said, “Jimmy, if you don’t find a spot you want to go, you always can come back to Miami and play, but I want you to be able to do it, but I got to play these guys.” So, it’s always outliers. But, and as far as Dame, think about it. If I’m dame, I’m like, where can I go that really? I can I do a uh a two with a one year op I mean the second year as an option option year rehab close. I’d love to see him in Minnesota actually. But I don’t know if he still want to be that far away from home rehabbing. But I think Dame would be fine. But he’s going to be on the back end. But he got to understand too when he comes back he got a different role to play too wherever he goes. What squad do you think would like to take Dame with, you know, with the situation that he has? Where you think he’ll look good at? Anywhere, bro. Like, you know, but put him with put him with Houston. I like that. That’s real nice. Now, does he play backup to Fred or does he cuz you think about it, he’s he’s out a year, he comes back with with Van Ble. I mean, little Fred. No, no, depending on how he looks, right? Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I think that’s a conversation, but you put him on that team where there is a a a KD, there is I think there’s defense around him, there’s length around him. And, you know, it’s just from a I always like, you know, if if it’s a smaller guard, pair him with bigger guy, length around him. Uh-huh. So, him being on that team, you know, you got a passing big in uh Singuan. You got KD a lethal shooter. You got uh the Thompson twin as one of the best defenders in the game. Jabari Smith length, you know, spreads the floor like that. And and there’s enough youth around him that he doesn’t have to carry load like that. You got Fred that can come off the bench or you can play him in tandem, however you want to do that. But I I like him in in Houston. And I think that’s a great fit for him in Houston. How do you It is interesting too because he’s a little bit older now coming off Achilles. We know based on KD that you can come back and really really be effective especially cuz KD didn’t rely on athleticism to kind of and Dame doesn’t either. He can just shoot it. But the mindset too, I hurt my I tore my ankle up. Now when I tore mine up, it was 800 years ago. So we didn’t have the technology. But when you got your injury and you had to rehab, how long did it take you men? Cuz that’s with with Dame, I think wherever he goes, if he does a two-year deal, at least he’s in the building with those guys. He may not be on the floor, but if he does a two-year deal with a team, at least he’s coordinated within that organization for a year. Mhm. How long did it take you like mentally once you knew you were healthy to kind of get because that’s the question Dame is gonna have, you know, that’s going to be as with Dame. Yep. So the the the crazy thing about when the injury when I had that injury, so I I came back and this was, you know, compound fracture, both the tib and fib snapped, broke skin, all of that. That happened in August, right? I came back and played April, but I was practicing in like early February. Yeah. And I was limping and hobbling around in in April, but I was practicing with the team. Like I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t a full-on hour and a half, but there was some live segments just to give me confidence that I could play through it. And a lot of it was for the the rehab part of it of, you know, that leg getting um, you know, some some type of force going through it and and learning how to cut and jump and react. So I to be honest as and and I I thought I looked bad to finish that season out, but it gave me confidence going into that summer that like all right, if I got NBA games under my belt, I can attack this summer, you know, 100%. So all in all, I think it was a good year turnaround for me to be completely, you know, and and mine is different, right? Like dame is, you know, that’s a that’s a tendon, right? That’s a, you know, that’s a different type of, you know, if I step this way, mine is like if something hit it, am I going to be good? His is if I take a step, is it going to snap? Is it going to, you know, if I jump? You know, can I be explosive? So my my process was a little different. I don’t know how you kind of can cope or get on the floor and kind of tune tune that out as far as you know just playing basketball because it happens from a non- basketball or a non-cont you know uh injury. So yeah, I don’t know how you get over that one. I ain’t going to lie cuz it took me a year but that was that was for me that year it was if I get hit or something hit it there’s a potential chance for it to snap. Well, I was just saying but it but you were around the team you were in the facility. You were all that. So Dame, wherever he goes, you know, they got to look at it like I know Rob Dillingham is young rookie that’s up there in Minnesota. He got to be able to have some runway next year to see if he can really beat his first round pick. If he can be their future, but it’s some teams I think strategically out there that with Dame, does he go back to Portland and finish it? Mhm. because now he’s back home, family there, rehabbing, come back, swan story, finish a career there. You know, I know it affects Scoot Henderson, but you know, I think it’s some avenues for Dame. And think about it, he getting it now, it’s an offset with his contract. Y, you know, he get his money over five years, but whatever kind of deal he signed, it ain’t like he getting 22 plus the new deal, right? It’s an offset of salaries within there. I was going to ask that. Yeah. Just like coaches, it’s an offset. So if he get 10 from the new team, then the Bucks only own 12, not the whole 22, right? 225. You see what I’m saying? Yeah. That’s why it makes a ton of flexibility there. But that’s a bold move that that’s the f that’s the longest stretch wave and stretch that we’ve seen. But that just tells the mindset of an organization and what they think. Mhm. Okay. Seriously, because they thought it was How many people Come on. You when you said Dame going to Milwaukee, first thoughts was what? I was loving that. Oh, I was loving it cuz he was going to play with Yiannis. I was loving it. But I didn’t see P and you were there cuz I always thought he needed help. But I didn’t see any real coordination between them in a twoman game. Offside pin downs between the two movement. It was either Giannis had it or Dame had it. M and how do you really exploit that and utilize that if you don’t use them the right way to really force the defense in these precarious situations where you got to guard both of them at the same time. Yeah. And I think that was a big flaw in why a lot of the success with Milwaukee was fleeting cuz I don’t think those two really offensively I’m a Drew Holiday loyalist so I thought I thought it was they they wanted offense. You think you think Giannis wanted something to do with that? I I don’t think so. I don’t think so after, man. But Giannis, he said he was upset. Yeah, he knew about it. He wanted game. Hey, I’m just saying. Well, man, you can still be upset and like said, it depends on that conversation. If he knew, maybe he did go to bat for Drew, but at the end of the day, it’s not his call. I mean, as much as you want to say Giannis runs the organization, those owners are going to do what they want to do. They might come ask you for your opinion, but that doesn’t mean they’re gonna roll with you like it. It depends. It depends, bro. It It really It really does. Especially in a small market. In a small market, because you’re not going to get free agents. And I’m not saying that Giannis did it. I’m not saying that. But I think in that playoff series when they lost and they couldn’t find offense, that was a big reason why Drew ended up being traded. But you you go you you going to your star player whether you want to make the decision or not and he going to have to voice an opinion one way or another. LeBron was out too. He’s the key to not I can’t play. it he posted like a meme uh that on the report that Giannis knew that in the Miles Turner trade and he posted I think it was uh was that Nacho Libre? Yeah, you got to pull it up. They’re talking about how Miles Turner Giannis knew and then Dame posted this. Oh, I love it, man. All right. Okay. Looks like he’s taking it with a He’s having fun. But for him, he probably like, “Listen, I’m getting paid. I’m rehabbing anyway. Make another go where I want to go. Make another album. I’m not losing no money. Yeah. Yeah. He’s in the driver’s seat. In the driver seat. He’s in the driver seat. Good. If you like having guests over during the summertime or need ways to entertain the kids while they’re out of school, Wayfair has you covered. Wayfair is your one-stop shop for outdoor entertaining. Now is the best time to get large outdoor items from Wayfair. There are plenty of options for outdoor entertainment. 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This is when we talk to the OGs of the game and their insight on those classic moments and memories from their playing days. So you mentioned earlier about the situation of your hold out, right? And this was at a time there was no rookie scale and so you know you basically were given or kind of negotiating with what the team thought was your worth. You gave a little insight about how that was, but from when you got finally got a chance to get back into the to the game, you played 28 games, you said. What was how awkward was that situation going back into the locker room now after being drafted and then you’re you’re coming in later into the season? Well, it’s funny because I never got a chance to be in Dallas, period. I got the press conference after I got drafted and uh Donald Carter was the owner at the time. and Norm Saju was the general manager. But after that, I was back in Columbus, you know, back in Ohio training. So, as we got closer to trying to get the the deal done, nothing was getting done. So, I was doing all my I never was there. Mhm. So, I never established a relationship with any of the players, the coaches or anything. So, basically, I’m I’m running five on five at home just trying to stay in shape, you know. But here’s the thing that I learned, man, about that time and it was hard. It was extremely difficult cuz I’m 22 at the time and uh your dream is to go play in the NBA. Okay? It’s right there at your fingertips. I the line is right there, but I can’t get to the line. I’m close to the I can’t get over it because this is But I had to make a decision. And my agent was really good. Mark Terminy was really good. Said, “Jimmy, here is what’s going on. Here’s how it will affect you if you sign the deal they want down the line. Not just today, but how it affects you down the line and how it affects next year’s fourth pick, which which was Jamal Mashber because the market is thrown off. So, I’m going to give you all these scenarios, but ultimately you got to be comfortable with what’s going on because they they can come at me as an agent, but they gonna come at you as a player. Mhm. Are you going to be I said, “Man, I can handle it. I I can handle the criticism. I can handle all the negative comments cuz I know I’m right. And if I know I’m right, I know I’m not trying to take advantage situation, I can sleep at night.” Mhm. So, bro, when I Now, here’s a caveat. The reason why I came in in game 28 is because I was about to have a lawsuit against the NBA. So, it’s deep because there’s a word called collusion. And what happened was at the time we found out that David Stern had talked to these owners about paying rookies these high term contracts. You can’t you can’t tell an owner what to pay. So, we got wind of it. Yeah. Because there was some trade scenarios in which Dallas could have traded me. Then they didn’t. So we got wind of and went to the players association and said we want to file this lawsuit against the NBA. So my deal at the time would have been I got an offer from Cleveland. I think it was 6 years 21. Okay. If I won my lawsuit, Mavericks would owe me double. What do you think happened? I signed. Yeah. I signed. So did they match it? No. So they just came in with my original market rate which was seven years 21 right under for the fourth pick. Right. Right under for the fourth pick. Okay. Got it. Okay. So, but I got all my money in 28 games. See, this is why I tell people to be careful when you hear stuff in the news. Like your negotiations, you know this firsthand with the Clippers. Mhm. Things that were being said were sometimes not actually what the conversation in that room was. Mhm. So you got to be very careful when you regurgitate regurgitate information that people are saying cuz you don’t know those intimate conversations that I had in the room with ownership that in the public’s eyes they said with all this you got offered the Lakers why you didn’t none of that stuff happened but I knew inside what happened nobody knew about that lawsuit then I finally signed and I’m with the Mavericks and Quinn Buckner is there and and management is there and everybody’s patting me on the back and we so happy to have you. I mean, what do you think I’m thinking? Real talk, right? I’m in my mind, I’m like, man, I’ll still be at home if I didn’t have this lawsuit, right? That’s crazy. So, think about it. So, now going into it, I have no training camp, no nothing. You know, the first game we played against, defended champs was the Houston Rockets. It was a Keem. It was Vernon Maxwell. It was Kenny Smith. It was my boy Sam Cassell. It was Robert Ory. That was my first game. Yeah. I had like two or three days of practice, right? Played had signs in there, some booze, some Cheers. Next game I played, we had back, we had two games at home, Phoenix Suns, Charles Barkley, we got Dan Marty, we got Kevin John. Those were my first two introductory games in the league. Awesome. I did better from game to game though. Tell you that. But it was just but it was the surreal moment was this. I don’t know what it was like for you the first time you got on the court. At least you got to go you got a chance to go through training camp then go through preeason and then play your first game. I ain’t had none of that. Mhm. I go from practice to put on a Mavericks uniform to walking out to booze and some cheers playing against those guys. Man, you talking about a head rush. Yeah. But I think my maturity at the time helped me handle what was coming at me because at the end of the day once you get settled in is this is this basketball right at the end of the day even though I didn’t have camp you figure it out and I I got a chance to figure it out my rookie year. I mean I a 17 18 points a game 17 points a game and I had no training camp had no nothing and no against those guys. But you figure it out. But you talking about a story, bro. That one right there. But it it cost me, I think, a little bit longterm cuz I fought the league. Yeah. Yeah. But it was worth it long term for me to do it. Mhm. So I wouldn’t change it. Mhm. And the NBA still needs you now. You dig? But so so that was in 92. Do you think that kind of had a part to do with them eventually coming to a rookie scale in 95? Yeah, I do. I do because when C Web signed the big deal, they was like, “Hold up.” And I think right after that, Glenn Robinson did. Mhm. Okay. And then it was KG that might have been the last one that did, but a lot of it too was through the union. Now, I’m part of the union. I was a VP of the union back in the day. It was preserving salaries and spots kind of like what they did with the salary cap for rookies now that veterans would still be able to earn. So that had a lot to do with it too. And again, back then you wasn’t making the TV money either. Right. Right. Right. That’s a whole new So it was a little push back from the vets that the rookies can come in and make this big money right away. Think about it. When I came in, bro, I was making three million a year. Michael Jordan was making 2.6. 2.6. That’s crazy. That’s real crazy on his deal. He got his big money on the back end when he got, you know, 36 million. But at that time, Mike was making 2.6. Yeah, that’s crazy. They giving that to We were just talking about this the other day. Where do you think with these contracts? Like what what where do you see the NBA contracts going? Like sh What were we talking about? Like 250 million in two year like the billion was way too much. But it’s obvious. I mean, look at your contract. Look at these guys contracts are going to get what SJ just got. How much of an incline do you think? Do you think this is just going to keep going up as the years go on? It depends on TV. Yeah, cuz you look at soccer. Some of those That’s what $100 million because But now you talking about globally. Mhm. Why you think NBA is in China? Why you think they’re in Brazil? Why you think they’re in Africa? Why you think they’re in India? because marketwise now that’s a whole different TV market. Okay, that’s part of the CBA, but still merchandise, all of that, the business of basketball. So, if you got NBC paying 2.2 billion, okay, you got ESPN paying 2.2 billion, now you got Amazon paying 1.8 billion to the TV rights. That’s not counting what they’re getting overseas in Europe. That’s not counting that. That’s just domestically. Mhm. Yeah. So, as those numbers increase, the salary cap increases, players salary is going to increase. Now, you think franchises Boston sells for six million. Well, six million. Lakers just over 10 billion. Billion. They say million. No, billion. So, um Boston’s over six billion. So you think that somewhere but the Lakers are so much more valuable but not how much more valuable are they than than the Celtics. It’s who want to pay it. So you keep asking like how big you we thought we we thought it was a big jump from when when when Mr. Balmer bought it for 2.3 billion. But that’s a $4 billion difference between the Celtics and the Lakers. Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy to think. But I don’t know that you think it’ be capped out one day. I don’t think so. Hell no. I don’t think so. Because now I think we know enough that if the TV ratings are continuing to rise, like why won’t the salaries rise, right? Like if if we’re all in for everybody making money here, owners is for sure making their money. Why can’t we make ours too? You know what I mean? We growing the game, you know? I think that the the with the social media now, like the players have even more power with their brands. And what I’m trying to say like with the social media people like we can see what he’s doing. We can see what they’re doing. I think that was what was limiting the game back then, right? You got big personalities. You got MJ. Like just imagine if MJ if social media was present in MJ days, how much that would have drove the game that much more. But do you think that takes away the nostalgia? Because what made MJ and those guys special was that you didn’t get a chance to see you didn’t you couldn’t dig in their life. So when they came to a city it was I spent time with them my fifth year on or the second three with Ron Harour. So I would go to the playoff games with him. Bro was nothing like it. Yeah. No. No. It was nothing like it because of the nostalgia because you didn’t you knew Scotty. You knew Rodman, you knew Harp, you knew Mike, but you didn’t. Mhm. So when they when you saw him and they came out and they came to a city, it was like this is my one opportunity. Now, man, if I don’t holl at P, I just hit him on Twitter. I just hit him on Instagram. He may respond to me or he may not. Right. Right. But now I got a chance to kind of get close to him. You couldn’t do that. Right. So that fed to the aura of that player at that time because it kind of lended itself to legendary status which I think we do miss. Mhm. Sometimes you can give too much to people and they take it for granted. You know it’s just like you know picture on the wall. I love that picture when I got it but you know five years later you don’t even know it’s still there cuz you take it for granted. That is true. That is true. That’s a good That’s That’s a good comeback right there. Yeah, that’s a good comeback. Speaking of the playoffs, uh I want to ask you about your time when when you was in two uh 2003 playoffs and you played tremendously against the team that drafted you and but the only thing is y’all lost your boy C Web that series. And I’m looking back, I wanted to ask you, how talented was Chris Weber at during the time together y’all played with the Kings? And is he a player who gets overlooked sometimes? First question, yes. I mean, second question, yes, he gets overlooked when you talk about power forwards, because of Timmy, because of I think Carl Malone, a lot of times O2, KG, right? Um because those are the three you kind of talk about a lot and you forget about Chris. I’ll take it back. I grew up in Toledo, so I’m 45 minutes an hour from Detroit. So, I used to go play and hoop in Detroit. I met Chris when he was a sophomore in high school. and we’re hoping in the summer league and I was like, man, who’s this dude? Right. Then I played against them, of course, in college when they were freshman Fab Five. They beat us in the Elite 8 in. But I I’ve watched them and then to finally get a chance to play with them and play with that Sacramento team. And I think Paul can attest to this, it’s rare that you get a team where you do everything together. We kicked it. We on Matine Cleaves, Damon Jones was on the squad with us. Um, we would kick it. I mean, go to a city, all of us go out to eat or we’ll connect and Chris was a big part of that because Chris was the superstar, but he wasn’t the egoomaniac superstar. He was inclusive. Okay. and playing with him. I thought that was the year. Mike Bby, Bobby Jackson, Doug Christie, Pasia Soy Alavich, Hedo was a rookie at the time. Gerald Wallace was a rookie. So I said, “Oh no.” I said, “Scott, my man, hope you get better. He’s dealing with some health issues.” I was like, “We going.” I mean cuz the way we play so unselfish and to have Vlad forgot about Vlad forget about and Chris anchoring everything and the way the offense ran nobody dominated the ball. I was like and we get to Dallas and Chris get hurt man. But I just tell you how volatile Hallebertton is in the play. The beautiful thing about Chris is his IQ of the game. just knowing how to pass it, how to get it to you, when to shoot it. I mean, just the little nuances of the game of basketball. I don’t think he gets the credit for, right? You know, that part because they look at how dominant he was as a player, but he dominated like this too with a lot of those power forwarders. And at the time, he was having some knee issues. you know, he wasn’t the same Chris that he was in Washington athletic wise, but up here, man, it made me enjoy really playing basketball again. Yeah. I mean, just from a pure joy perspective, that team made me do that. You were also a member of the 2005 Suns team, which some would argue, you know, that team kind of revolutionized how basketball is played. But you witnessed, you know, a young Joe Johnson up close, a young Amari, MVP, Steve Nash. When did you know that that roster that you guys had was was doing something special in basketball? So, I got there again on the back end of Funny Story. You want to hear another story? Yeah. I was with the Rockets earlier that year. I got traded. Funny story. Jeff Jeff and Gundy was the coach at the time. So, me, Ty Lou, we all the same thing. So, I that like 20 something before Christmas. Jeff calls me after Christmas and said, “We we making a trade.” Cuz Jeff and I were close. I was like, “Oh, cool. We making a trade. All right.” He’s like, “You and he said, “Bost Basha knockb bar and you getting traded to New Orleans.” I was like, “Huh?” I was like I said, “Hold up.” He said, “What?” He said, “You going to New Orleans?” I said, “Okay, that’s cool.” I said, “I ain’t going.” Yeah. He was like, “What?” I said, “I ain’t going to New Orleans.” He said, “What do you mean you got?” I said, “I don’t have to do anything. I’m not going.” Right. So, I ended up not going to New Orleans. I just stayed. Wow. What? I was like, I ain’t going. Yeah. I was like, I said, I’m tired of being traded. I said, I’m not going somewhere I don’t want to go. And it wasn’t the disrespectful thing. I wanted to take control of my career. Yeah. I was 33 at the time. I was like, man, you I told Byron Scott and those guys at New Orleans, y’all going to try to trade me or do something on offseason. Why you want a disgruntled player to come? I don’t want to come right now where I’m at in my career. If it was 5 years early, I’d love to play for you, B. I would love to play, but right now, I’m not finagled my way to get to Phoenix. Mhm. So, I got a chance to be on that team. And Steve was unreal. Joe was at 68. I mean, crazy. Amari was sick. Q. Rich was on the squad. Okay. Sick. and the way they played. Mhm. It’s hard for people to understand at that time. Pet you, you understand this. You people want to run and want to play. You got to be in shape to do that. You just can’t say I want to run. It’s all the time. Yeah. And with Steve navigating and negotiating, Amari just and Shawn Mary and just a double double. It was just I was like, “Oo, had a squad.” Fun, huh? And then guess what? Joe gets hurt in the playoffs. He had to wear the mask against San Antonio. remember and the next year Joe gets tra he he goes to Atlanta because guess what earlier in that year they could have offered and paid Joe and they didn’t they waited till the end of the year and Joe went to Atlanta yeah walked but those two teams back to back special bro cuz special people special players a special time in my career where I could appreciate it a lot more you brought up uh Joe getting injured in that playoff run but through that you kind of especially later in your career, you kind of stepped up and stepped into the role and was a big piece of that conference finals run. Talk to us a little bit about how fun that, you know, you said you spoke a little bit about playing with Steve Nash, playing with Amari, Shawn, uh, Barbosa was on that that team. Talk to us a little about just how fun that was cuz, you know, I remember that my I was young. I you know that was my days of being a big Kobe fan and Oh yeah, you know so that was you know when you guys would clash it was like oh this is good like you know my my favorite gets to go up against this. How is he going to figure this out? Like this is a juggernaut offensive juggernaut team right here. Talk to us a little bit about that run that you had with that group cuz you you mentioned how fun the Sacramento team was. It was fun man. It was fun and and it gave you here’s the challenge and I think I I kind of sympathized with Melo when he was going through it and kind of understood from a different perspective of going from being from here now I’m not the player Melo was because I got injured early. I didn’t have the run that Melo did. Mh. But to see yourself differently is a challenge for every player in the league as they get older. Okay? Because if you looking in that mirror and you see yourself at 10 years ago to you gonna have some problem because you’re not that player. You’re just not. I don’t care what it is. And that is the dynamic that a superstar player and I’m not saying I am but has been in the moment has to reconcile with himself at the end of their career. Okay. Can I still add value to my team without being the guy that I once was? And that’s the hardest thing to reconcile. You got to be comfortable. Vince Carter did a phenomenal job with that at the end of his career. Other players couldn’t handle it. So to answer your question, I had fun because I felt I had a value at that time and I brought something to the table with that experience defense. My whole thing was they got enough offense. Let me play defense. Let me get on the court. Let me end the game. How can I end the game? Forget start. How can I be in there the last two to three minutes of the game and make an impact? That was my thought process. And when I reconciled with myself that coming from Portland before, but then with Sacramento, I was like this run man, just winning. I didn’t get to the playoffs until 98 99 when I was in Portland lockout year. I didn’t know what it felt like, bro. I just watched it on TV. I saw about the excitement talking about when you get in the playoffs, it’s a different game and said, “I ain’t know cuz I didn’t I didn’t win.” When I felt that moment when I was in Portland, we beat Phoenix and Jay K was still in Phoenix playing that first playoff series. I I was emotional cuz I couldn’t believe I mean, this is what NBA is. and to get back to it with Sacramento really and then Phoenix and playing with those guys on that squad was special man. And again in our league and sports to be able to have a group of guys we did everything together. Our managers would come we would do stuff together to have that kind of camaraderie between the collective group is what makes winning special. It’s not just winning game. Right. Right. He’ll tell you that it’s what you do on the plane and you get to the hotel and before practice and you know all of that. That’s what culturally goes into winning and why it’s so special when you do it with the right group of people. Yeah. Yep. I could I I like my Indiana days, right? It wasn’t we wasn’t the best team that I’ve played for. We didn’t have the most talent that I’ve played for. But it was the best team I played for when just collectively collectively to your point it will be dinners where 14 15 guys show up. I ain’t never had that after I left Indiana. You know what I mean? Those days with Roy there, George there, Danny, uh, you know, uh, Brandon Rush. Brandon Rush. Was Tinzy with you? No, I was after. Uh, Yamahi. Like you you go down the list, man. D West, everybody was there. It didn’t matter what it was. We could go do an escape room. We could go to dinner. We’ll go out, you know what I mean? Go out to a club. Everybody’s there. So, I feel like we just got so much out of each other because of that. There was conversations we could have. Um, we could get on each other. There was a a moment of pushing each other. I say that to say that when you got obviously as talented both of those groups were, the Phoenix Suns, the 05 Suns that you had that run with or the run that you had with the Sacramento Kings. Which team would you say that was your best chance or moment that you not necessarily regret, but a moment that you think, damn, we let one get away. Sacramento. Sacramento. So we if C Web now Dallas at the time Dirk was a little younger, Nick Vanessel was playing, he had a heck of a series. Dropped 41 one game in the game that they needed. But I think we were so the roster was so balanced depthwise with Sacramento. Yep. Yep. Starting five, you had another four that could really come in and impact the game. That was and we would have played San Antonio which I thought we matched up extremely well against with Vlatty and Chris. They offset at the time with with Tim Duncan. You know what I mean? Inside. I thought that was the best chance to get to a finals. Once you get there, you don’t know what’s going to happen. Right. Right. It’s anybody’s game. But it’s anybody’s game. But that to me that that 03 team if if Chris doesn’t get hurt and we still went to game seven against Dallas. Okay. In that series that says a lot about the team but without without your main dog though without without him it’s things operate differently of course. Y when you talked about Portland and one of your teammates is Isaiah Ryder known as the great JRE writer. Man I used to love watching that boy play. He was a very outspoken guy and I want to know how wow was he really like how how how wow was this man with I love Jr. You you hear about the reputation for one of the greatest guys in the world, bro. Greatest personalities guys in the world. I first met Jr. was at Nike camp. First dude I ever saw with a ball head was JR. And Jr. almost got kicked out of Nike camp. You know what I’m saying? That’s just JR. But Jay competitive, bro. I mean cuz we competed. We’re the same high school class. We when he was at Minnesota, I’m at Dallas. You talking about two guards. It was Jay Spreewell, um, Mitch Richmond, Mike, it was Reggie. I mean, the two guard position was so strong. And playing against Jay was like kind of playing against myself, especially in the post. We posted up a lot. So tough to stop. Funny story though. So we we in Portland, but we get traded to Atlanta. Lenny Wilkins, our coach, right? So you you too young for the you too young for the next No, no. for the nexttail flip phone. Y’all too young. Jackie might be a little older than you. I’m 43. My dude. My look good, man. Drinking all that sugar though, man. Mess with you, man. You remember the next 10 flip? Yeah, I had one. Remember the next I don’t know if you remember next to church. So, we in practice. We in practice, right? Lenny Wilkins, our coach. Jay sometimes was sauntering a little late even though he stayed at the Omni and can walk right in. Sometimes he would do that. So we in there. Dude, the flip part is broke. So the speaker’s on. So we stretching. Jay in there having a conversation. Lenny don’t know what to do, bro. Cuz Lenny Wilkins show Jay just having a conversation like, “Man, whatever. Whatever.” But that was Jay. Yeah. He going to give it to you. He going to give it to you, right? But he go have the other side too and he’ll tell you he go have the other side. But I love my time uh I I got a chance to spend with him in uh Portland and we got traded together actually in Atlanta. Man, did did you hear about the story Rasheed Wallace said about him? When he was talking trash to to Mike and he went to the bench and he and when he went to the bench, Gerard said, “Hey man, quit talking smack to this dude cuz you don’t got to guard him.” So that had to be a funny moment. But I want to ask you, have you do you got any stories with, you know, the time you was in the NBA with a story with Michael Jordan or anything? Yeah. So Sam Ket Sam Cassell and I together in Jersey. Caliperry’s our coach, his rookie year. We play him in in um in Jersey and beat him. Sam like 24, I got 25. We beat him. So we go to Chicago and play him. And we know we we talking cash, right? We we we because of what happened. So at the time is a ref it was a referee called his name was Steve Jabby. Okay. So I guard Steve Jabby. I’m guarding Mike, right? And we would go at it. But I mean, come on. This Mike, but I ain’t go, you know, we still got to play the game. So we playing and Mike go to his his patented turnaround jump shot. And as we running back down the court on the left hand side, he’s yelling at Steve like, “Man, why you ain’t called a foul?” Right. Yeah. And I’m like, I f you. Steve was like, Steve Jab was like, “Well, I thought you was going to blow by him.” I said, “Blow by who?” I said, “I can play.” Yeah. Right. And Mike said, “Man, you can’t guard him.” I said, “Mike, you can’t guard me.” Yeah. So, so we start going back and forth, back and forth. I’m on the free throw line hitting shots. Dudes at home said, “Man, what was you saying?” We might just talking. I said, “Man, I’m guarding you. Won’t you guard me?” Yeah. Whatever. End of the game, I ended with 33, right? Mike had 37. We lost. Yeah. So Joe Klein, who played with us, who who played uh who played you played for the Bulls, we going through the for the handshake line and Joe went up to Mike and said, “Man, you leave my young fella alone.” He said, “Man, JJ my guy, but just tell him that’s why he wearing my shoes.” Everybody got a story about them, bro. I jumps though. I said I said tell him I ain’t taking him off either. But that but that was the thing about Mike was this. He talked cash. Yeah. They say that. No, no, bro. The king of it. Cash. I was in Philly. We in preeason playing down in North Carolina at Dean Dome. We going at it talking. I said, “Man, stop complaining so much, man. You get every foul anyway.” He said, “So, stop following me.” Yeah. Who is the worst? You think, Gary Payton or Jordan? Gary different, bro. Gary. Gary antagonist, man. Antagonist, man. Yeah. Just be an antagonist, man. Yeah. He He an antagonist, bro. Might try to go for you. GP just all up in you the whole time. Okay. Michael strategically talks you once you get GP started. Forget about it, bro. He He right here. He right here. That’s GP. He right there. Check Mike, man. Hey, can’t be calling me no hoe out here. Hold that hoe. Take that, ho. I know, bro. Take all of this. Yeah, that’s MJ [ __ ] I mean, that’s his take that hoe. Oh my god. like, “Hey, hey, hey, MJ.” He like, “Man, bro, I’m telling you.” But sur real story. I didn’t get a chance to play him because I I was a rookie and I held out. Next year, he retires. So, I didn’t get a chance to play time. I get a chance to play with him. I done tore my ankle up. Yeah. So, I ain’t the same player, right? Because I wanted to play him when I was fully fully but I didn’t. So the first time I get a chance to play against we play in Dallas. This my man I and I worked at his camp when I was coming out of college. I swear to God, man. The game started and we we’re playing it seemed like just me and him on the court like nobody else in the stands. Nobody else for about a 15second period. It was just I’m on the court with Mike. Yeah. And it was just I didn’t hear nothing. And I didn’t I just saw 23 red jersey him sweaty, you know, chewing his gum, some fresh Jay’s on. I’m like, “Yeah.” All right. Then I snapped out. But for about a 15-second period, that’s that’s that aura that Mike had. Yep. I was going to ask you that, too. Like with Cuz there there’s got to be a blackout moment of blackout, bro. That was my blackout. Y’all two drawing back and forth. You like, “Shit, I’m caught in this.” But even before that, you was ready though. But this is for the game. Jump ball. Yeah. And then I’m guarding them or I’m on the other side. It’s just I’m like like, bro, it’s it that it was a blackout. It felt like 15 probably is only five or six seconds, but it felt longer. Mhm. You know what I mean? because that was my first time to be able to play against the one of the players I looked up to growing up and had this he was he was I don’t think people understand that time period and what it meant when Mike came to town and you played against Mike just to be on the court with like your story how you blacked out. Yeah, it it was me. Yeah. I mean, well, cuz you know, I got like I got to play Cole when I was, you know, my rookie year, my second year, kind of young. So, I wasn’t really, you know, the Paul George that came to himself yet. And then when I was able to play Kobe at that moment, it was Cob’s last year. So, he was, you know, he was kind of trying to get through that last season. So, he was sitting some games off, right? or you know he was trying to manage but still finish that season. So I’m in Indie. We know Lakers coming to town but I’m I’m tracking it. Kobe missed this game. Kobe missed that game. Get to Indiana. Kobe playing tonight. Yes. So you know and and that’s it was a blackout moment. Like I knew this is my last chance I get to play against him. Um, don’t nobody I got cold like don’t nobody match up with Cob. It’s me and him tonight. Did you know the night before or just the day of the game? It was it. So he was like he was like probable the night before. I know you and then the day of the game Cole playing so I’m I’m prepared regardless like but it’s like man I hope he play and then I I I knew early that he was playing like it was it was like that shoot around. Co’s in tonight. We going through the walkth through. what you know it was it was a blackout moment like damn I get tonight and this is my last opportunity. So it was it was it was a one-on-one like it it was a one-on-one and I for sure as hell wanted to beat Cob and we was able to win. Okay. It was it was one of those iconic games, you know, for me as far as going back and forth it late in game and that’s when you had to guard up because that it wasn’t switching a lot. It was no switching. Yeah. Like that. You know what I mean? Like now it’s easy to switch. Back then 90% of the time you were guarding Kobe. Yep. Yep. And it was it was it was what was so crazy is like Cole was kind of off the whole game, but then it was like the moment. Yeah. It was the stretch where he had it was like the last three four minutes and I kid you not, he did not miss a shot. like deep threes, contested threes, coming off pindowns, threes. It was a moment and it was the flash of like, damn, this is I could only imagine if this was 5 years, 10 years before what this cuz I he was hitting me [ __ ] with like no dribbles, right? Just creating space. I’m like, god damn. And then, you know, you know how good the Lakers uh fans travel. Yeah. So, we in Indiana, it was like 50/50. So he’s getting That’s bad in Indiana. That’s bad in Indiana. It’s like 50/50 and look here. So this was No, this was when No, he it was when they came to uh Indie. Look, this one got it was it was an iconic iconic game in LA as well. Wow. So it’s actually right there too. It was actually cool. Both of them. Love him outfit. It was just a fun moment, man. It was like I didn’t get tired. There was no Look at him. Look at him. Look at that. At that point, you can’t you got the fresh. Okay, I see the part for the haircut. Yeah, but you know, at that point with with guys like that, man, what you going to do, man? Yeah. You live in a moment. You live in the moment. He laughed at that situation because we were talking defensively how to guard it. Yeah, we was we was going over that and so it was it was miscommunication. It was miscommunication which got him a little free on that and so and he you know listening to the whole conversation I’m having with my teammate stupid ass. And so I’m at the line and I and and I’m like [ __ ] And so he caught me at that moment laughing about the situation. Shout out Cole man RP to to to the lake beam. you got to, you know, be a part of uh that team with the Lakers in ‘ 05 06 after, you know, I think you were traded that year from Phoenix to to the Lakers. You got a chance to be there with Cob. And actually, fun fact, you were the last person to wear 24 before Kobe switched to to number 24. What’s your memories playing alongside Cob and on that Lakers team? It was shortlived. It was great because I got a chance to meet Kobe when he came here at 18 years old. So I used to come here to LA to work out. So he was really good friends with my guy Douggee D at the time. So he and his sisters I got pictures right now still when Cove was 18 when he first got to LA. So to to to watch him grow and I’m not saying I was best friends with him or anything like that, but and to finally be on the team with him was just like a surreal moment cuz I knew I I knew his makeup and and why he was and why he was so maniacal in my mind to to the to the Kobe Bryant and why he actually changed his number. He wanted to change it that year. Mhm. To 24, but he waited too late. you know, you got to wait, you got to you got to submit the jersey early. Y and it was too late. So, he had to wait a year. Got it. That’s how I had it. But the the the interesting part about this was Kobe and I never hung out before. We knew each other. We competed. We had respect for each other. Had mad respect for Cole. But we started to to hang out a little bit when I was on the team. I’m older. And um I knew he liked steaks before the game. So I said, “Bro, we I got I got Let me take you to a couple spots on the road that we can go to.” And we would do it a couple times. And then his security, he had two security guards. One of them came up to me one time. He said, “You know, Co don’t you don’t do this. You don’t.” I said, “What do you mean?” I said, “I go all my teammates.” He said, “Cob don’t.” Mhm. I said, “Well, I’m I’m going out. So if he want to come Yeah. you know, but I got a chance to sit during that short period of time and get behind not number 24, not number eight, but Kobe. And to me, that’s as valuable as anything in the world. You know, we got a lot of time to talk about just life and his philosophy and how he got to certain points. We even touched on Denver a little bit of how it affected him. Mhm. Okay. We didn’t go deep because that ain’t none of my business. I ain’t asking if you want to divulge it and we can talk about it fine, but it was the mindset of going through that period of uncertainty of what was going to happen, but how he still had to be a professional, how he had to deal with his family, how all of that. So to be able to at the end of my career cap it off by spending time with that man and getting to know him, not the basketball player. I knew who he was as a basketball player, but as an individual to kind of watch him work, even though it was later in the year in practice, but to watch him how he prepared for games and how he looked at things and analyzed, it was special, man. Yeah. So, you finished that season with a loss to Phoenix. Phoenix in a game seven, right? you guys up 3-1, lose a game seven, but that game seven wasn’t no regular game seven, especially for a guy like Kobe. Um talk to us a little bit about what was kind of going on because game seven Kobe him not being aggressive don’t that don’t even that’s never in the same category. He didn’t shoot for Exactly. Exactly. What was kind of from your outside perspective or maybe you knew kind of what was going on in the thick of things what Kobe mindset was in that situation? What kind of what? Cuz it had to be weird like oh gosh like like shoot the [ __ ] ball like what are you? But you got to back up because when we I I was with Phoenix earlier that year and came to the Lakers. So we go up 3-1. I’m talking to my boys in Phoenix. You know you know I’m like exit first round. Right. So it’s game five. So game five is in Phoenix and I tell the guy said, “Listen, man. We got to win game five. Okay, because we got to get this series over with. And Smoo Park had done a phenomenal job in the first four games on Steve Nash, just into him cuz the whole game plan was to make Steve work and not help as much to give up those threes, right? And it was working. Smush was all up into him. Smush was long, athletic, and but then some things changed where Smoosh started to get outside of his game and things start to change. LO was on the team at the time and surprisingly to me, Brian Shaw was assistant coach on the team with us, you know, at Clipper, feeling them, let him kind of get away with it and Kobe was pissed. That’s what really got Kobe mad. That’s what sparked it was watching that we up 3-1. We get back game six. I’m like, “Bro, we can’t go back game seven to Phoenix, cancel Christmas if we do.” Mhm. Man, we hit this, you know, you you did all, bro, we go back game seven. Aaron McKe was on the team and and ironically, here’s the thing. We noticed it, but we didn’t notice it in the fourth quarter cuz we getting drilled, too. Mhm. But it was it was a culmination of a couple things leading up to that fourth quarter to why Kobe felt like that because guys got outside of their parameters of who they were and why we were up 3-1 and nothing was being done about it. So I think Kob and I don’t want to talk for him was proving the point. Yeah. Like you got to take this and you got to get on this and and stop the bleeding early. And I was surprised that Phil let it fester. Mhm. Just based on who I thought Phil was as a coach that that would be cut off right away. Yeah. But that’s what I think led up to it because Aaron McKe and I was sitting there on the bench like we we didn’t realize it at first and then we was like, “Hold up, dude ain’t he ain’t shoot. He ain’t even looking.” Yeah. And it was it was crazy cuz before you knew the game was over and you look at the stat sheet he ain’t shooting before. We like but in real time you didn’t realize it cuz the game was going but then you knew something was off like Co ain’t really being aggressive. This ain’t game seven. Mhm. But I think it was to in my just my opinion proving the point to the coaching staff. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz that was what was so crazy about it. It wasn’t like he was It wasn’t like he was getting trapped and doubled and the ball had to get out of his hands. He was he was invitingly swinging it like Yeah. No, he was like, “Oh, you think you think you can win it? You think you can do this? Go ahead.” Y that’s what I think more of it was was that aspect of it. Yeah, bro. That’s crazy. Yeah. Crazy. I was like, “Stos people, I mean moving people, come get my stuff, man. I’m I’m heading back. Yeah. Did that end up being was that your last? Yeah, it was my last. And I hated it, too, because I got so fed up with like just like little stuff of the game of organizations of hearing one thing and saying something else. And I was just like, man, I I could have played a couple more years, but I didn’t know mentally, yeah, if I could just handle I could handle just being okay with not playing or being a supplemental player. if you just tell me the truth, if you tell me what’s going on, let me prepare my mind. That’s something that didn’t happen in Phoenix. And I told Mike Danton that I said, “Bro, you going do what you need to do, play who you need to play, but just tell me what’s going on. I’ve been in this league too long. I’m still going to come work. I’m still we still going to do all these little things.” Like I had Barbosa and Amari, different guys. We do workout sessions before practice. I said, “I’m still going to do all that. But when you tell me one thing and then you do something else or you don’t talk to me when you’ve been talking to me, now we go to have a problem.” Right. Right. And that’s the thing that and you know as as you get older and mature in this league hopefully for you you can find yourself winning a championship be in a situation and retire the way you want to but 99% of us don’t retire the way we want. We can’t just walk out the door. I think it was even hard for Kobe as as much as he accomplished to leave the game. Mhm. Let alone somebody like myself who got older, probably didn’t have a lot of options, kind of got forced out the league. And I think that’s what a lot of players post their career deal with is that they never they didn’t get a chance to leave the league the way they wanted to, which is a tough thing. Well, I don’t know if y’all seen the great Tony Parker the other day. Well, recently just said that uh this had to be the most pettiest thing I think Kobe was was doing at this point. If you can do something this petty, he went to go learn French to trash talk Tony Parker in games. And if that ain’t petty, I don’t know what is. But with that said, I want to ask you the times that when you was in the league and you knew Kobe, was there any runins you got that that you can remember or any off the court that you got like a story like that or something? No, I just in the game. I mean, Cole was just maniacal, man. We playing and uh well, I’ll tell you about competitor. Okay. Game and same thing with Mike. He want to get the I said, “Man, you getting all the calls, man. Why why are you complaining to the ref all the time and you cannot call all the time? So now here’s how competitive he is. We in practice in in LA playing a shooting game. Five spots you make three you can continue. So it’s it’s all about how many threes you can make in a row. Bottom line is Steve Nash had like 20 something. So Cob here is talking about it. Co said I want to play. I said you play 500. Yeah. You know if you want to play right. So it goes on the course of the year and he don’t he don’t really play. Then one day he come in tumbled I I can beat you. I said man just where my 500 at. Right. He said oh don’t let me get lthered up. I said man get lthered up so we can go play just I don’t care about all that other stuff. Right. Right. Co starts shooting. How many I got? I said man until you get about 15 in a row. I really ain’t counting. Right. So then start getting competitive. He started getting lthered up. But like you you can’t hold me. You can’t. I said, “Man, this ain’t got nothing to do with the shooting game, my 500.” So we get to practice and so Aaron McKe is on the sideline and cold still. I said, “All right, since you was talking all that,” I said, I said, “I take a watch this. I’m guarding Cole.” Every time he got the ball just hacking, just hacking for no reason. No reason whatsoever. Because he wanted to come take our game because he thought he could win. Yeah. I in practice, I said, “Dog, you tested me. I I I’m cool with you. But you still over me that 500, though. You still 500. Did you get it? No. I ain’t never got that money, man. But peace of the co. But that’s how he thought he could win and do everything. Everything. Yeah. Everything. Mama mentality. Yeah, bro. Before we wrap, we’re going to run a segment called Keeping It Real with Jim. OG, we know you played for a couple teams across the league. Mhm. At one point, holding a record with 12. No. That’s my man. I love Ishit. Soon as I saw his, I said, “Bro, you’re my favorite player.” I said, “You’re my favorite player.” It’s got the title. But along the way, you’ve played with some great teammates. You’ve been on some historic teams. In this segment, we’ll throw out a series of questions. You’ll have to keep it real with us by answering with the first teammate or first word that comes to mind. All right. Question number one. We’ve heard a lot about heat culture over the years. You played there in 02. Uh, so fill in the blank here. My experience with the Heat culture is blank. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Why is that? Because it’s all about profession, bro. It’s hard like life. Pat treats you like a professional, but they take care of you. I was only there for one year. They still take care of me to this day. It was brutal going through it. Yeah. But you do your job, Pat. Take care of you. Love that. Nikki Ericen, take care. Love that. Once a Heat, always a heat. Yeah, man. You played with AI, Kobe, T-Mac. Every offensive killer shares this trait. Blank. They share a short memory. Yeah. Whatever just happened, they let it go. They move on. They move on. Yeah. Got to have a short memory, bro. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. All of them. Mhm. All of them. Yeah. all in different ways, but it’s like whatever just happened, last minute, last game, last shot, don’t matter. Give me the rock and let me do my thing. I could be 0 for eight, 0 for 10, doesn’t matter. Mhm. Short-term memory, bro. That’s dangerous. You played with Steve Nash, J Kid, Andre Miller, all are obviously amazing floor generals. The smartest, most cerebral player you’ve ever played with is J Kid. J Kid, they didn’t JK didn’t talk a lot. Yeah. Didn’t talk a lot. Not during that time. It’s crazy, right? But how if he’s that good of a floor general and he’s kind of to himself? Yeah. Run. Yeah. I’m going give it I’mma give it to you. So you learn right away. Eyes up. Yeah, man. He took Mash and I both averaged 19 my second year his first year to 25 and 24 the next year because of J Kid. Cuz of J Kid. Okay. I’m saying [ __ ] but getting right where y’all need to go. Go. I got it. Then go. Yeah. He’s got to be the standalone at that position though cuz a lot of the point guards are the the personalities, right? And you got someone that doesn’t talk as much or was a little more quiet than J Kid. Yeah. you know, but he just he saw plays two or three um moves in advance and you know, and he thought the game differently and the way our offense was set, it allowed Jay Kid to kind of really read the defense. Even though we had set plays, it was a lot reads off of Jay Kid and what he needed to do and that’s what made him so special. Got it. Number four, we got the best shooters you’ve played with. Obviously, you played with Pasia, Jason Terry, Tim Leggler. Who would is the best shooter that you’ve played with? Pasia. Pasia. Pasa. At 68, bro. PA did. And it didn’t it didn’t take it didn’t take a lot for him to get it off either. That’s the beautiful part about it. Mhm. He turned into it and catch it. That thing was going up. Yeah. He Yeah. Yeah. That trigger was just quick. Oh, it was quick, bro. Yeah. Mhm. At a time that many Yeah. You know what I mean? It was weird because it wasn’t like like Clay and Steph catch it here. He is kind of wind, but it was Yeah. lethal. He had a little step back and got a shot off going left to like he was going um to his left so he can step back. Boom. Mhm. OG, we want to thank you for your time. That is a wrap, man. I appreciate you having awesome story mode. Appreciate you, bro. No, I appreciate you. Golf game, baby. Yeah, we got to go. You got to give me strokes. We got to go. You you man got to give me strokes. [Music]

Jim Jackson joins Podcast P to discuss down the new-look Dallas Mavericks and Damian Lillard getting waived by the Bucks. He then reflects on his own NBA career — from holding out as a rookie with the Mavericks, to playing alongside Chris Webber and the legendary ’05 Suns. Jim also shares wild stories about Michael Jordan talking trash to him and Kobe Bryant’s unusually passive Game 7 in the 2006 NBA Playoffs. Tap in.
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0:00 Introduction
1:30 New look Dallas Mavericks with Cooper Flagg
9:50 Damian Lillard getting waived by Milwaukee Bucks
26:40 Jim Jackson held out with the Dallas Mavericks in 1992
38:50 Playing with Chris Webber on the 2003 Sacramento Kings
42:00 How the 2005 Suns achieved ‘the secret’ to Basketball
53:55 When talking trash to Michael Jordan turned wrong
58:55 Best Kobe Bryant Memories
1:06:15 The REAL STORY Behind Kobe’s 2006 Game 7
1:15:15 Keeping it Real with Jim Jackson