Chicago Bulls Staff SPEAKS: What’s Planned for Josh Giddey and Isaac Okoro? | CHGO Bulls Podcast

Chicago Bulls Staff SPEAKS: What’s Planned for Josh Giddey and Isaac Okoro? | CHGO Bulls Podcast

What up, Bulls Nation? We’ve got a live CSO Bulls pod coming up for youall right around the corner. On today’s show, Keith Smith, Capologist, NBA reporter for Spotrak has some interesting notes and quotes from Bulls execs and coaches he chatted with out in Vegas during summer league. Plus, a couple of ESPN columns, one from Kevin Pelton, another from Zack Cra. Biggest mistakes from 2020 through now for all 30 NBA teams. Do we agree with the Bulls biggest mistake? and revisiting some of the biggest offseason moves of last year, including the Caruso trade and the Demar signing trade. We’re going to break it all down next. [Music] [Applause] [Music] I think that was Actually Dave Koulier. Katie, cut it out. Cut it out. You’re mixing up your your Hollywood couples and your songs about breakups. No, it’s called All Too Well. There’s a 10-minute version of it. There’s 10 minutes of this. There’s a there’s a regular version and then when she re-released her album because after reading horoscope. No, stop it. Because that there was the Okay, I’m not getting into the whole thing, but she had to re-release her album because of some legal stuff with Yeah, I know that part. She released like vault tracks, you know, like tracks she had never released, and one of them was a 10-minute version of this song. And it’s amazing. It’s amazing. It’s amaz No, you don’t. The 10 minutes fly by. It’s How many viewers have we lost so far? I just want everyone to know that we were not planning to do this. It’s just that they were insulting my Taylor Swift. All I said was days, Katie. I literally just said Jake Gyllenhaal. That was That is literally what you said. It’s true. Yeah. Apparently, that’s a trigger. That’s the trigger word. I didn’t say in reference to anything other than the movie that he was in. Just bringing up his name apparently is Zodiac Swifty. Yes, as a Swifty I’m insulting. Also in that movie Mark Ruffalo in that movie. That’s true. Mark Ruffalo. I just We’re not doing Jake. And we’re back. And we’re back. Hey. Hi. Hi. We never left. What up, Bulls Nation? Joe Bod. How’s it going? Coming to you all live from our studios here at Westl Chicago. Peek. Bulls_pack. That big day. Bow. BL Sports. Will the godly perfectly quafted? We learn score godly and queen of the controls and queen of the Taylor Swift takes Ky. What’s up? What’s up? Hi. What’s up? I used a horoscope. I used all my words for the day. I’m sorry. Oh my god. What are we doing here? Okay. You’re going to die. Remember yesterday when Matt was like dog days. Dog days. Yeah. In love right now. Love dog days. You were so happy about it yesterday and now that I’m pitching you dog day content, you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to laugh.” Used to be the Zodiac Killer. Don’t spoil it. Used to be the Zodiac Killer. Don’t spoil it. But if I don’t know what they know about Bulls basketball. Um, all right. We do have some fun slots to talk about today. Let’s start with Keith Smith, friend of the pod. Uh, great capologist and NBA reporter for Spotrak. He had notes for every Eastern Conference team that he put up yesterday, this morning, sometime recently. And he’s got some interesting quotes. Some of which kind of sound familiar to what we’ve heard before and some of it that’s new and interesting. So, let’s start with the uh the one that is about the Bulls having a quiet off season. Um, quote, “I won’t say it was by design, but we knew we weren’t likely to make any blockbuster moves either, but we’re happy with what we did, and we’re still actively looking at other options, too.” And quote, “a Bull’s front office executive sad.” Which Bulls front office executive, we don’t know, but a Bulls front office executive. Um I like I think they even with the patience from the fans and all that like I think most Bulls fans who have a solid head on their shoulders were not expecting any big bonanza off season to happen. So the the the interesting part to me Dave is when he said I won’t say it was by design. It’s like cuz to me as a Bulls fan I think it was very much by design that you had yourself a pretty quiet off season. Somewhere between by design and the fact that you’re kind of stuck where you are and can’t do much of anything. Yeah, it felt like it was by design. Do you call that by design? Yeah, I would call that by design like, “Oh, I painted myself into a corner now and I must wait for it to dry.” That’s by design. Like it didn’t just happen to you, you did it. So yeah, that’s interesting to hear that they were like, “It’s not by design.” It makes me wonder, well, what was the plan? What what were you guys thinking about doing and trying to do right um this off season? As I said, I I gave them credit and I still give them credit, yes, for how they’re handling certain things in this off season. Um, but saying stuff like that just kind of like, come on, man. I’m trying to get you something here. Like, I think they would have like I’m not saying I know this, but I feel like if Giannis was made available, they would have like tried to get Yiannis. Yeah, but that’s not by design. That’s anybody in the NBA. But that’s what I’m saying. Like when you’re saying uh you know if Luga showed up, we weren’t likely to make any blockbuster moves like that was going to be the the thing that would have broken the design. Okay. Okay. The blockbuster move would have just said, “Okay, forget what we actually were going to do. We’re going to move in this direction because we have That’s like one of those things where it just like you it rattles you and you have to like make a decision.” All right. To me, what’s interesting about this one though is that again, it implies that what they’ve said publicly uh at press conferences about them having financial flexibility next year, presumably what that means is cap space and and yet we’ve talked about Isaac Aoro and Trey Jones cutting into that cap space for next year and how those numbers don’t seem huge, but it’s almost $20 million that you can’t give to a free agent now. um whether that’s you know in the form of a $20 million player or lumping that on to whatever the other amount that you end up creating is and Kitty will obviously do the same thing. So to me I think it’s expected to hear something like this that like they weren’t planning to do anything major. They were going to take the patient approach as they said unless maybe something else came up. Um, but what’s interesting to me is that just like this doesn’t really connect with the idea that they’re going to be a max free agent destination next summer. And when you look at the signings that they did make or the trade that they made, like that affects that, right? Meaning the signing Trey Jones to a multi-year deal, bringing in Isaac Aoro, who is not an expiring but did have an additional year on his contract and that cutting into the cap space plan of 26. It’s like $19.8 million there on the books next year that wasn’t there before. And like people were like dogging me on Twitter about that one. It’s like that that’s a non-trivial amount of money to put towards a what is these days in the NBA huge figure on a legitimate maximum contract. Yeah. A max contract a 30% max is 60 million. That’s like a third of a max contract. Exactly. Yeah. Um the other thing that kind of goes along with what we were talking about on yesterday’s show and like could there still be some trade candidates on this bull’s roster right now. So this executive saying we’re still actively looking at other options too. To me, that tracks I would not be surprised if the Bulls are still making and or receiving calls about maybe making one or two more tweaks to this roster before it becomes a final 15 while also knowing they still got to deal with that giddy contract. Um, and uh, not that that’s a roadblock on trades, but you know, how much are you juggling at once? The last piece of this quote that I will comment on is the but we’re happy with what we did. Are you? Cuz you signed Trey Jones. That’s what you did. Isaac Aoro. That’s your off. Okay, sure. Sorry, I forgot about the Lon Lonzo for a Cororo trade. Noah, you okay? Yeah. Okay, fine. Hey, Lol. Oh, that one just for you. See how I be looking out like right there. Okay. Yeah. So, if you want to add some footnotes to what we did, this obviously like Yeah. Okay. I guess you can, you know, put all that in a pile and call it a day. It’s to me it’s just a another very like they’re not going to come out and say actually we’re pretty disappointed in our offseason performance as executive so far. Why would you you proudly are the owner of a new contract extension but Bulls fans can’t maybe some Bulls fans are happy with what they’ve done with the with the trade. I know some Bulls fans like the Lonzo for Aoro trade. I am not one of them. Some fans do. CF Fred is definitely shout out president of the Aoro fan club now likes that trade but it’s like basketball or otherwise he’s like well okay we re we resigned we we drafted a big old 18-year-old project with the 12th pick how big man big old project got and we traded Lonzo for Aoro time to rest on our laurels like man get out of here with that I don’t know if they’ll rest well that’s hard to say if they’re resting our laurels or not but yeah like just saying what you did and you like what you did and you’re happy with what you did. It’s okay to say it’s nothing wrong with that. Um I don’t have a problem with them saying, “Hey man, we like what we did and we’re happy with what we did.” Cuz like you said, a lot of Bulls fans are there are definitely several Bulls fans that like these moves that enjoy uh what Isaac Aoro could bring to this team that enjoy Noah Essen Gay and watching what he did uh in summer league. Some of them even like uh uh the latch key kid that they got in the second round. Like they like him too. You know what I mean? So yeah, that’s fine. That’s okay. I don’t have a problem with you saying that you like it. Be I think it’s different for me this year than other years is because I can actually agree with some of that. Whereas in the past if you said these same things, which they have, right, I was like, what are you smoking? What are you looking at? Like what is going on? But now I could be like, oh, okay. And maybe it’s just me cuz I it feels good to be able to be like, you know what? Yeah. All right. I see what you did. You did something logical that I agree with. And even now you’re going about the Josh Giddy uh signing, I agree with as well. It feels good to be on that kind of page with them. Not in the car kind of on the same page with them, but actually seeing the car ride by and saying, “Hm, I might want to get in that one day.” I uh Okay, we good. Next quote. Next one. Uh we don’t have to spend too much time on this because we are going to circle back to the Caruso Giddy trade uh talking about ESPN stuff later and we talked a lot about Giddy yesterday. Um not a lot new here, but on Josh Giddy, uh Bulls front office exact said quote, “We want to get a deal done with Josh. He’s as important of a player as we have. We see him as a foundational player for us. I hope we can find a deal that makes sense for us and him and that we’ll be together for a long time.” End quote. end of Matt’s happiness. Look, we we heard AK say similar things on his not anonymous broadcast interview during I think game two out in Vegas. Uh so whether this was AK or somebody else very much along the party line, Josh is important to what we’re doing here. Foundational player as important of a player as we have like that or or be skeptical of that or hate that as a Bulls fan. that is the party line right now despite the fact that the two sides are still at odds on the contract. And I feel like it also gives you a little bit of insight into like or relief from the the argument that some people have brought up which I disagree with but it it is that um lowballing him is going to like signal to him that that he’s not welcome here that they don’t want him here that you’re going to offend him. Like it’s possible that two things can be true. the Bulls really like Josh and they want to keep him around and that they view him as a as an important as important of a player as that they have uh while also not wanting to like do a disservice to their to themselves by giving him more money than they should. So uh both things could be true and I think this really speaks to that. Yeah, agree. I agree with that. Next one down also from Keith Smith’s summer league notes. This one I’m modest perking me back up. I’m happy again. quote, “He’s going to be really, really good. He wants it so damn bad. This kid pushes himself so hard, and you see that on the floor, too, but it’s the quiet moments when you see him work. He’s wildly intense about getting better and improving.” End quote. Said, “A Bull’s coach.” Um, so summer league coach or coach coach, I’m not. Anytime I hear somebody who has gotten to know Modis since being drafted into this organization a year ago say stuff like this as someone who’s hanging a lot of their hopes on Modis as a Bulls fan. I’m like give me every single quote that sounds like this. Yeah. I mean we’ve seen it ourselves. We’re lucky enough to get those glimpses too. But it just anytime you get validation from somebody who’s working with Modis, coaching Modis, it’s all the same message. When we had the interview, Will and I had the interview with Modis last year after it was over. Lex after it was over and we walked down I told Will I was like dude he’s insane and I meant that in the most positive way possible like bro I he is crazy because of the work ethic you know I mean he really really really truly wants to be the best not the best on the team not the best in the conference he wants to be the best in the league he wants to be the best ever and that’s how he is going about it you know it’s one thing to say it it’s another thing to do it he is really going about it and showing you know what he needs needs to do and what it takes to actually get to those levels. So, and that’s what the coach is kind of hitting on right here. Like, bro, like it’s not just that. It’s the quiet moments when no one’s looking, when no one’s around. That’s when the work is being put in by that young man, dude. And he we should be proud to have him wearing a Chicago Bulls jersey for real. Fine day in the chat. I’m really excited to see how Modis develops over the summer. Hope he lives in the gym. Our guy Fish saying, “We love Modis.” Yes, we do. You know what else we love at CCO Bulls? showing you awesome ads and find products and services and then asking for likes. While you’re doing that, hit the like. Vam vam vam. What is that? Katie adam Katie needs a second. Can I give my quick take on the modest thing? Yeah, go for it. Go. Um, this is so different from the way that they were handling and treating and talking about him last year. Last year they were being cautious. They didn’t want to put him on the posters. They didn’t want to like overburden him. They didn’t want to start him right away. They were being really cautious. I think they were optimistic. But they’re now talking about him like privately or whatever you’d call this like as he’s going to be really good. Like that’s a I think that speaks to their view of him obviously as a player but also within the organization as like this is the foundational police. 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Right now, you can get 20% off your first slab pack or car purchase by going to arena club.com/chgo with promo code chgo. Rolling along COS live on Tuesday afternoon. Pack big Dave Goat Katie. Katie, any other Jake Gil Hall takes we need to get out of the way before we dive back in? No, we can discuss after the show. Okay, cool. Uh, next quote from Keith Smith’s summer league notes talking to various Bulls personnel. This comment came from a Bulls coach speaking about the roster as a whole. Quote, “Last year we played pretty fast. I think we can play even faster next season.” Bold take, “Our roster is built for it.” And you saw with Indiana and OKC in the finals that playing with pace is so important. We’re going to get after it on defense, force turnovers, and then get out and run. That suits Modis and Noah as our young forwards and all of our guards really well. We also think that Isaac Aoro will benefit in a more uptempo style, too. There’s untapped potential there. End quote. Um, go I’m going to pitch this to you first because I know you’ve talked a lot about the whole like the Bulls comparing themselves to the Pacers and or Thunder, the two teams that went to the finals with like look see teams that play fast win. Yeah, the Bulls played fast, but they also it’s not like they were like crushing it as far as offensive rating last season. they were a middling if that offense while playing fast. So to hear another coach make that parallel. What do you think? I mean I think it’s interesting that they’re saying that they think they can play faster because as we’ve talked about they’re going to need to like I don’t think it’s going to work again to just play at the same pace while everybody else catches up to them. To their credit they were ahead of the curve. Like I I think uh their desire to get out and run was like before I mean it was on the Pacers were already kind of doing it but like it was before all these other teams got that same idea realized the power of it um and now are going to adapt their game to it. And so if you’re, you know, sacrificing half court defense and, you know, not getting uh not being able to like contribute as much in the half court offense because you’ve overindexed on transition and now all these other teams are catching up to you in transition, are you going to be able to still compete with them? And so I think the only answer is to lean in to it even further. And that’s something that uh Billy and I have talked about before is like you need to really go full boore into it in order to be successful. you can’t hedge out um and expect to still be as productive. So, I think they’re going to it it’ll just be interesting to see how much more they can get out of it. Um hopefully they’re right about Isaac Aoro. Like, I I do think that just avoiding half court situations where he’s standing in the corner waiting to catch and shoot threes is going to be good for him in terms of his confidence and just touching the ball and making decisions with it and not being forced to do something he’s not great at. Um, and so I do think that all these guys, whether it’s Madison Noah who they mentioned, or Giddy or Kobe or whoever else, like all those guys can benefit, but again, that’s like at most 15 or 20% of the total game. So, how are you producing in the half court during the other 80% of the game? And I still don’t know that there is an answer to that, but maybe they’re just not at a point in their kind of build where they need to have that answer right now. For now, it’s just about getting the most out of what they do have. And yes, that’s exactly what I was going to say. Like they shouldn’t be worried about that stuff uh right now. They’re still honestly learning how to walk uh in this. I agree 100% with you saying that it’s something they need to lean into. I mean, if a three-point shot is all a guy has, then take 20 of them. You know, don’t just say, “Well, you know, maybe I should work on, you know, my mid-range game.” No, bro. Shoot these threes. Get that together. I think this is the right way for them to come out and to think. And I I see it in my head already because we saw it on the screen during that second half of the year. Get that rebound. Probably Josh Giddy getting that rebound, starting the break, getting out and running. That’s exactly what they need to do. It also makes me wonder hearing this. Who’s center? Who’s the center? Who’s playing the five? Cuz I don’t hear it doesn’t feel like Vu is going to be a part of that kind of offense that’s getting in and running. Are they going to be cheating with Modis there? Uh is Zach Collins going to be more so uh in that role? Do they still feel anything about a guy like Jaylen Smith? Uh how much Essen Gay, you know what I mean? A really fun fun question for real. Like is is SN, you know what I’m saying, gonna take some of the time? Uh is he going to get some kind of tick out there uh with this team? Like it just makes me wonder all those kind of questions because I know Modis and Giddy and Kobe and Auroro are going to be out there on the floor or even IO, you know, or even Trey Jones, whoever you want to put. But it just makes me really wonder who is that big man that’s going to be running with you. Especially if Giddy is the one getting those rebounds and starting to break. That means that big fella got to be moving. How do you feel about Jaylen Smith Bulls? We don’t. Yeah, I need to know. We feel no feelings. I need to know cuz they would like them in the beginning and then we didn’t see him at all in the second half. It’s a valid question. I will say though in defense of uh the M Mr. along in the tooth. Vu ran he did with that younger team this past season, you know, like like there was a little minute I think after the trade deadline where he was like, I’m still here. Yes. What? But other than that little dip, he was a dutiful soldier and was willing to get out and run and, you know, play that, you know, trailer role a lot of times and benefited from it. He did. And father time catches up with us all, right? and he had one of the best years of his career. And how much stock are we putting into that part? Because we know why he was having that because he was trying to get up out of here knowing that he’s still here. You know, what kind of vouch are we going to see again? This is why I can’t wait for the season to start cuz all these questions are getting answered from game one. Yeah. Like I can’t wait for this, bro. Seriously. The uh the other thing about mentioning Aoro specifically and we also heard AK talk about defensive identity. I I that may have been a 670 interview he did, not the one he did on the broadcast, but um and and that being a big reason why they liked the Aoro trade. Yeah, I’m c you know I think I made some quick yesterday when we weren’t really talking about that specifically, but like Lonzo Ball, elite defensive player. Mhm. Isaac Kakoro, slightly different model, who has hung his hat through the first stage of his NBA career on the defensive end. And go, you were just talking about his limited offensive identity in Cleveland through the first part of his career. How much faith can Bulls fans have in Isaac Aoro being a like lynchpin in establishing a defensive identity for a team that didn’t have much of one last season? I think it’s gonna have to be like that’s kind of primary assignment every night. Yeah, I think so. And there’s a lot of options there for the starting lineup. Obviously, I think you can pencil uh Josh and Kobe in as the two primary guards. I imagine Modis will be there and I imagine Boo will be there. So, at the three, you have options of Cororo. Kevin Herder started a bunch of games last year and probably IO right now who is still in the roster as we talked about may may or may not be. Um, so I think it just kind of depends on what like combinations Billy feels the best about. I think there’s probably going to be like some hockey lineups where it’s like five on or just, you know, maybe it’s all the whole back court comes off. Um, maybe it’s maybe it’s like Josh and Kobe get split up a little bit but then close games together. Um, but like IO and Trey to me is like a tough one cuz they’re very similar. Um, so you probably want to have a little bit more shooting in there. Iot tray and Aoro probably does not make much sense at all. So maybe you want Herder in there. Um so it’ll just be interesting to see what kind of combinations Billy goes with. But every time we’ve like discussed even the idea that IO might be out of the rotation or that IO might not be part of the future of this team or that IO might not be like one of the more important backward players on the roster. Like he’s just stepped up and played even better. Like IO just does that. Um, and so I’m not I’m certainly not counting him out uh as a starter, as like a primary guy moving forward, a building block for this team, but I do think that for what the Bulls seem to be looking for that Aoro does make sense in the starting lineup just with Kobe and Giddy also there. Um, because I was so good at pushing the tempo, getting the ball up the court, and like you have Giddy and Kobe to do that. Um, and I was also a great defender, but like Okaro just doesn’t seem like he would need the ball quite as much and be able to fill the fill the wings a little bit more. And then maybe you give Io even more responsibility with the second unit or pull Josh and you put Io in there with Kobe and hurt her or something like that and really juice up the offense. So, um I I think that versatility and that lineup flexibility is a good problem to have, but I do wonder just like I mean Aoro you bring in presumably to take on that primary defensive assignment in the starting unit, but like he could also just be like the 10th man, you know, like there’s just a lot of guys in that back court especially that Billy really trusts. We saw that with Trey, we saw that with a we saw that with Herder. Yeah, he’s going to have to earn some of that trust. I keep forgetting about Kevin Herder when you stand there. I completely forgot was really good about Kevin and yeah, he was really good and he didn’t do anything to lose honestly his position out there on the floor and he earned like you said that trust from Billy. I’m curious as to what trust Isaac Aoro is going to get coming in here because on paper it looks like he should be that starter for all the reasons you just kind of stated, but the Velvet is lurking. I don’t know what the Velvet did wrong to make you say, “Hey, you shouldn’t be in this lineup getting this start.” It’s just crazy everywhere you look trying to figure out this Bull’s roster. It’s like, oh well that problem stems from that problem and that pro I’m not trying to be but just like just talking about Cororo’s role and where he might be in the rotation. Like yeah assumed starting five, right? He’s your three. Modest is your four, Old Bamboo is your five. Kobe and Josh, there we go. But like maybe not. May maybe maybe he doesn’t get that trust right out of the gate. Maybe he’s towards the back end of the rotation. And to me that signals then why the heck did you trade for this guy? Unless everybody, Billy included, was on board with this being the guy you needed. Correct. Because who did you give up to get him? Lonzo Ball. Mhm. What did we hear about certain offers being turned down for Lonzo Ball at the deadline right after they resigned? Again, it’s like it’s the same conversation. And wait, who’s who’s the three? Who’s taking the primary defensive assignment? Oh, it’s the new guy, Isaac Aoro. Why? Oh, because Patrick Williams is here and getting paid and doing nothing. Dog day. You look everywhere you look. You know, this is dog day because during the season, this would have been an explosion right about now. I’m trying to wrap my head around what they’re doing and I’m like, there’s a problem. There’s a problem. There’s a problem. There’s a problem. That’s the problem with not two-way players. Like, you have these guys that are either defense or offensive specialists and it’s just tough to like get the perfect lineup out of that. one of those guys and you need them to be one. But think about like the way the Bulls ended the season. They were playing really well obviously and they seem to have like a a lot of depth at guard and that was Io was out for the season. Trey was out for the season. Lonzo was out for the season. Now you bring back Lonzo or you bring back Trey and Io and Lonzo who was like I mean he’s played 35 games in the last three years for the Bulls. Like he’s just not really a fixture of that rotation anymore. and you replace him with Aoro who’s also getting a lot of those minutes and a lot of that responsibility. So you still have Herder there. You still have Kobe. You still have Giddy. There’s just a lot of mouths to feed. And I think part of the the Bulls want to play faster. Can we get even faster is maybe going to be we’re turning down all these guys minutes a little bit so that they can go that much harder. You know, if Kobe and Giddy are playing 32 minutes instead of 35 or 30 minutes instead of 35, can you can they play that much harder now because they get those extra minutes of break? That’s true. Uh, Bulls all day in the chat saying, “This is Billy’s roster this time. He loves small ball. All those guys will get minutes.” Shout out to Colin who said, “Just tuned in. All instantly wants a hat throw.” There you go, Colin. That was for you. Apologies if the hats don’t line up. When we go to this ad break, hit the like. Katie, do we need to vamp? Here’s some ads. Few rules in life, ladies and gentlemen. One main one, never touch my hat. Just don’t do it. You can give me a hug. I’ll take that. But don’t touch me. It’s also a rule. But hugs, don’t touch. And don’t get biffed. Don’t do that. Never get biffed. Ladies and gentlemen, get that shop at home convenience that you can only get from our people at Empire today. They are flooring experts, dedicated flooring professionals whose focus is on flooring every single day of the week. With Empire today, you get that clear upfront and all-inclusive pricing. Plus, you can schedule installation as soon as the next day. 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They’re your trusted local experts. Four Seasons heating, air conditioning, plumbing, and electric. Visit forseason heatingcooling.com for all their special offers and moneysaving coupons. That’s fourseasons heatingcooling.com because Dave for all the right reasons. Call 8664 season. We roll along CHO Bulls. It’s Tuesday afternoon. Hit that like button if you didn’t do it during the ad break. Katie, I’m guessing that this like ratio is not quite where you want it to be. I’m not happy with it. Katie’s not happy with it. There are 187 people watching. Shout out. Which means that I’d like 100 likes and we’re only at 65. Oh, come on. Yeah. Yeah, she’s right. That is a disgusting one of the viewers. Why? Yeah. Why is there even like why can’t it always just be the exact amount of people watching there are the exact number of likes? It should be a one to1 ratio. Except for maybe I I my guess is Cole Krug did not give us a like who said in the chat just before we went to ads Bulls top five seed Kobe all NBA bulls better than Hawks. See you haters. All right. Love you. Shout out to you. Yes. This that time of year for all of that baby. Come back and show us your work on that take. I would love to hear too all days. Also of all teams better than like dude the Hawks just had a killer off season. They had a pretty good off season, man. Maybe the Bulls will face him in the playing tournament again. Yeah, it could be. It could be. Maybe the Hawks are going to leap frog to the actual big boy playoffs. Might go up there a little bit. Little bit. Shout out to Charlotte doing his thing. They’ve played the Raptors, the Hawks, and the Heat. Is that it? I believe so. Yes. Yes. Who’s the other like just perennial middle feeder that they could possibly that they could possibly play next year? Perennial middle feeder. You like that one? That’s a really good band name. It is. Yeah. Or just like someone who eats at Burger King every day. It’s like it’s not the best, it’s not the worst. Like I wonder how many teams have been in the East. I would kill for a Whopper to be on this bull squad right now. Oh, maybe even the Burger King. The cartoon with the big head. Oh man, I forgot he was having a run. He could ball. Yeah, he can hoop. All right, what’s uh what are we doing next? Uh yes. Okay. So, there was another Kobe White quote in there, but I think it’s, you know, pretty similar uh to what we’ve heard before. Contract is what it is. We can’t extend him based on the rules of what we’d extend him on now. He knows how we feel about him is is the other interesting thing that that Anonymous Bulls exact said about Kobe. Uh so, you know, still TBD on that, but obviously Josh is the primary focus for the Bulls front office right now. Moving on, this was Zack Cra of ESPN who had a ranking all 30 teams biggest roster mistakes since 2020. That is the year that AK and Eversley took power after Pax and Gar stepped down took power. That huh? Took power is a crazy way to say that. Uh accepted the roles of power VP of basketball ops and general managers. that it sounds like they all go down a little smoother until they went to the dark side. Yeah. I mean, it wasn’t like a wasn’t like a coup. John was like, “Hey, Jerry, you got to let me fire myself through you.” And then they found these guys or something. They float through. Anyway, same year that AK and Everly took these roles as the Bulls front office brain trust. The Bulls uh were 66 in this list. I was initially surprised, but then the more I thought about it, the more I think it’s a solid take that does make sense. Zack Cran believes that the biggest roster mistake that AK and Eversley have made since 2020 was making the Vu trade, acquiring him from Orlando in the middle of one of his best seasons in 2021. Uh Graham made note that this mistake uh this decade might be a broader one uh as they continually aim for the middle of the standings rather than following the tank and rebuild cycle that most NBA teams employ when they have little hope of contention. Speaking of those middle feeders go, but Chicago’s malaise began with the Vu trade. The first of lead exec AK’s tenure which sent Wendell and two future firsts, both of which land in the lottery to Orlando in exchange for VU. Vu, a solid player, two-time all-star, was in the midst of a career season in Orlando when he was traded. But because his defensive difficulties, there’s a firm ceiling on a team with Vu in the middle. So his acquisition symbolizes the Bull’s larger lack of ambition bars. Damn. Indeed, Chicago finished with a total of one layoff win with Vu, Demard Ozen, and Zack Lavine. Uh, also pointing out, meanwhile, Orlando used the first of those two draft picks they got from the Bulls on Fron Vagner, who would have been the best young player in Chicago since Jimmy Butler. Damn. Uh, and then also he uh dinged the magic for spending that other pick they got from the Bulls on Jet Howard who not exactly the same impact that France Falner has had for them holding it kindly. But so guys, fair or foul to say that of all of the missteps when constructing their roster or their various iterations of attempts at constructing a roster, making the trade for the in the first place was the biggest. What are the other contenders before we go? I don’t want to have that. So, I I can think of a couple set um I would say obviously the Caruso for Giddy Trade, which we’ll talk about later. Um trading the 2025 un or uh top 10, top eight, top eight protected pick to the Spurs for Demar De Rozan um when he was a unrestricted free agent. Um, the Zack Lavine Max contract, you could say the Vu ressign, the $60 million extension over three years. I I still defend the Zack Lavine one. It was the best of a bunch of bad options to sign him to that deal, I think. Sure, but they didn’t have to give him a player option. They didn’t have to give him the trade kicker. They didn’t have to give him all the bells and whistles. Correct. Um, I agree though. That was just kind of like the situation that they were in. I’m trying to think if there are any other I mean really it’s like there’s a there’s a bucket for like the moves that they made and then there’s a bucket for like the moves that they didn’t make. Yeah. And that would be another like the Caruso stuff. Not trading him, not trading Zach, not trading Tamar, not trading V when they had the opportunity to do so. Um drafting Pat forth like that extension turned out to be a really bad Pat extension. Um there’s so many to choose from. Uh I would say though a bevy of options. I would say though that like that that vouch trade was a very pivotal moment in Bull’s history on par with like trading Jimmy Butler I would say where like it it it sent them down this pathway that led to all those other moves that we’ve you know had disagreements with. um overpaying for a guy who’s having, you know, the best season of his career after age 30, uh who has known limitations. And look, I I think VH has been like really solid for the Bulls. But it’s just like the cost and the player, the cost to get the player are like two things that you can’t separate. That’s why we’re having these conversations about Giddy because of the cost to get him. And I think that that does fair or not factor into how we view VH as a player. And again, I think Vu has been really solid. Obviously has had his ups and downs shooting the ball. I do think that Cra is right to say that like there’s just a ceiling on him in terms of what you can be as a team because of his defense. Um but like the Bulls have had a top five defense in the league with Vu starting and playing, you know, 82 games. So, um I don’t think that like V is a bad player and I don’t necessarily think that the trade for him as an idea was wrong, but the cost to get him was wrong. And I think that is what really sets you back. If you only give up the one pick instead of the two, now you’re not giving up the 2025 pick for Demar. You can give up your 2023 pick if you absolutely must. And then you’re not trading Zack Lavine to get your own pick back. you’re getting a real asset there instead of just accumulating back your own picks to get, you know, out from under that. So, um, on top of it, Fran’s obviously turned into like a fringe all-star player. He’s going to be an absolute star in this league, and that makes it probably hurt a little bit more, but for me, it’s just it’s all about the cost. And I think overpaying on the margins has been a consistent theme with this front office and that’s how they’ve ended up having to overpay to get out from under that stuff. Uh Dreads in the comments saying, “But Wendell hasn’t grown to be much uh grown to be much. So was it that bad?” Granted, I am tired of Buch. And again, I think revisiting it, Dave, I’m not sure how you feel. I was not heartbroken when they made that trade and like the fact that Wendell was a part of it. Yeah. I like I had stopped you know, firmly planting myself on Wendell believer Island. I think a little while before that trade happened, I was high on him as rookie year and then it was sort of a gradual decline. Yeah, it’s the two picks that thinking back to it what could have been that really hurts when you know that’s what you gave up and as a cran pointed out in his explanation Vu being a centerpiece along with the other bold move to bring in Demar and construct that roster you capped out as a team that lost in the first round in five games. Yeah, with one playoff appearance. Yeah, that’s a lot to pay for those for that yield. True. Uh, I don’t disagree with any of your statements or your logic, but for me it’s Patrick Williams. Um, listening that the pick or the the pick the extension? Um, the pick for me. For me, everything was kind of relying and riding on him developing and growing into that guy that they drafted from the beginning. and we haven’t seen even half of what they thought that they were going to get from a guy like Patrick Williams. We don’t have these worries or conversations about Vucha’s defense if Patrick Williams was that dude. We don’t have these worries about the Bulls offense or guys playing in the half court if Patrick Williams kind of grew into that guy. Um, Vu was Vu. We already knew what he kind of was. I didn’t mind the trade. I celebrated the trade. I was very happy cuz I’m always a guy who’s airing on the side of of a team trying to win. That’s a I’m trying to win move and I would never fault them for doing something like that. Yes, I agree with 100% what you saying. What they gave up was a lot. They gave up two first round picks and when they said I said, “Damn, that’s damn.” But all right. And then I was like, “No, but all right. No, no, no. They got a good player. Fine. All right. Let me see what else they’re going to do.” And you got back, you know what I mean? A guy who was super talented who was going to at least get you to the playoffs. I mean, like you said, having VU him being a liability on defense is still a guy that gets you to a playoff. Yeah, he still is going to do that because he is a really good basketball player at what he does. But nothing set them back further than Patrick Williams not developing into what they expected him to be. It’s why people still talk about Tyrese Hallebertton in the draft. It’s the same reason. Um, they still have that discussion because of it. So, it’s what sets you back because of what he was supposed to be on this team, the band-aid or the salve he was supposed to be for this team. Now, injuries occurred. Of course, he hurt his wrist. We were there when that happened. Um, those things set him back for sure, but he just hasn’t developed into that guy that the Bulls needed a number four pick to develop into that, you know, they can rest on. And that 2020 draft class wasn’t great. No. uh as far as recent draft classes go. But even still, Dave, talking about how much they needed Pat to hit and he didn’t. I mean, and this exercise is now even more hilarious given recent transactions from the Bulls. But just going after number four, who would you rather have, Pat or Isaac Kakoro? Why not both? Uh, who would you rather have, Pat or Anya Akongwoo? Killian Hayes, Obi-Wan, big role in a team that just went to the final. Denny Aia, sorry. See, Red Fred, my my friend. Can’t call him Denny average anymore. That dude is cooking. Like quasi allstar season incoming. I want it obvious. Uh Jaylen Smith, we got him too. No worries. Uh Deon Vel, Hallebertton, N Smith, Cole Anthony, Beef Stew, Josh Green, Sadique Bay, Precious Sichua, Tyrese Maxi, Zeke Naji, Quickly, Payton Pritchard, like Jaden McDaniels, Desmond Bane. Yeah, it wasn’t a ray draft class. Those are some players though. But those are some players. And you’re naming guys, all of which would be more useful to the Bulls than Pat was last season or really arguably at any point. Like you’re naming guys who are on Eastern Conference rosters who definitely contributed to why those teams made playoff runs of any kind. Like you just named two Indiana Pacers right there immediately, man. Like no, it it stands out. Even Beef Stew, you know, he’s vitally important. Yeah. Uh to that team, just their culture and how they roll. So, yeah, man, it was a it was a misstep. All right. And it didn’t pan out. And if you want to throw the contract in there, sure, that they gave him for that, fine. You could do that, too, as well. I think I fought them more for the extensions for both Vu and for Pat than the deals in the first place. The doubling down on the mistake is more egregious than the initial mistake. Pal stays. Think about think about like if the instead of at seven the Warriors drafted Jonathan Kuminga instead they had drafted Fron and now Kuminga’s going to the Magic like are you feeling as bad about the VU trade so so much of it is just like the draft is really hard and it’s a crapshoot and I feel that way about Patrick too to a certain extent like I didn’t hate their justification for taking him obviously it didn’t work out I was a P fan listen I was for it all right I do agree with that point I think that’s fair uh we got to knock out one More quick ad break. When we come back on the other side, we’ll dive into another ESPN NBA column that was a bunch of fun revisiting big offseason moves of 2024. Hit the like now. I too like to live dangerously. Today’s show brought to you by Ray Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, and Ram. Now is your chance to score a great deal at the employee pricing plus sales event. Right now, lease the new 2025 Ram 1500 Big Horn crew cab for only $3.99 a month for 27 months. 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Well, Shady Rays went out to do something about it. Guess what? They going to offer you them premium polarized shades for an awesome price, ladies and gentlemen. And they changed the game. Those sunglasses are made for real life. Goodlook, polarized, durable, and not ridiculously expensive. And here’s the awesome part, and Matt’s going to love this. If you lose them or you break them, bow. Even on day one, Shady Rays will send you a brand new pair back on your face. Kaplow. That’s how it goes. So now you can actually wear your sunglasses anywhere you want to go. Y’all, we’ve teamed up with Shady Rays to bring you an exclusive offer as well. Head to shady rays.com. Use that code cho for 35% off those premium polarized shades and try for yourself. The shades that are rated five stars for over 300,000 people cuz it’s shady raids y’all where the rays are oh so shady. Uh welcome back. see Bulls hanging out with y’all for a little longer on Tuesday afternoon. Next, man, bless ESPN’s Harford just giving us a couple of dog day treats. Yeah. Uh the next one we’re talking about, Kevin Pelton, ESPN reporter, revisiting 2024 NBA offseason’s biggest deals and regrading them. Kevin Pelton, a big grades guy for transaction in the NBA. Let’s start with this one cuz these these trades both actually kind of go all along with what we were just talking about which is revisiting some of AK and Eversley’s missteps when it comes to roster construction. Caruso forgetti. Yep. Brace yourselves. We’re going to talk about it a little bit more. Pelton originally gave the Bulls a C minus for that trade and the Thunder an A. Fast forward one year, he still gives the Thunder reigning NBA champions and a citing the fact that Dagnalt really kind of like took it slow with a with with Guso’s minutes through the season and then come playoff time. That’s it. Guso, you’re guarding Jokic tonight. Guso, you’re starting so rested. And the Bulls grade went from a C minus a year ago to a C++. Hey, get ready for some optimism. Bulls fans, congratuating. Kevin Pelton said, “Given a C-grade is generally my bar for whether a deal is worth doing, I’d now elevate the Bulls above that threshold.” There you go. Congrats, AK. Although Chicago still should have acquired even more for Caruso given his importance to OK. The Bulls are better off with Giddy. Matt, trigger warning. A restricted free agent this summer going forward. Giddy improved his shooting and efficiency last season, nearly averaging a triple double with an impressive 6202 shooting percentage after the Allstar break. Listening to your brain melt during mid Reed is hilarious, dude. Triple double. Triple double. But so look, some some positive reflective uh you know, thoughts there on Yeah. somebody who didn’t initially love the trade for the Bulls, didn’t hate it. It wasn’t an F. No. But he went from a C minus to a C+. Honestly, I could even be talked into feeling similarly, but like making a D instead of a C. D minus to D plus is where is where about where I am right now. Uh I just cuz I’m still not a big believer in the Giddy foundational piece play. That’s okay. That’s just me. Sure. Um, but I think wherever you are on that spectrum, it’s hard to deny feeling better about Giddy after the way he played down the stretch of this past season while still pointing out like you could have gone a different direction with that Caruso trade chip. Could have, but it’s a could have, should have, would have. Yeah. I mean, I think like for me hearing him say like the bar to do the trade was interesting cuz like I still don’t think that like this was a trade even knowing what I know now about the way that Giddy played. I don’t think this is a trade I would do if I was the Bulls because I think that the what whatever was going to be behind door number two would have been more favorable. Like I think Giddy has grown on me a ton as a player. Um but like we sat here and said last year, we know he’s going to put up triple doubles. We know the stats are going to be big. We know he’s going to like go through a month or two stretch where he looks like he’s incredible and he did. But like we still even having watched that, we don’t know what to make of it, right? Because of there was also the downside. There was also the first part of the season where he didn’t look good and now you’re in a situation where you have to pay the guy not feeling confident about who he is as a long-term fixture. And I think that’s really the question is like, you know, I’ve heard people make the argument that the Bulls were not going to get a better player, a better young player than Giddy for Caruso. And I don’t necessarily think I disagree with that. Like Giddy is really good, but in some ways that’s kind of the problem is that he’s too good to let them be bad. And so you’d almost rather get the picks that could end up being better on a longer, you know, on a rookie scale deal. You’ve got them cost controlled for longer. um and maybe they don’t turn out to be as good, but maybe they don’t also prevent you from being bad where you can keep going uh and building through the draft. Now, we know the lottery is a crapshoot. We know that the 11 seed jumped up to one this year and the 10th seed jumped up to one last. So, that’s not like a guaranteed path either, but I just think it’s a like if they just given one additional first round pick, yeah, I would feel much better. And like last year at this time or midway through the season, I might not have I still might not have felt like that was enough. Like Giddy has played his way into being a pillar for this team. And I I don’t think that’s like a wrong thing to say. Like it may not be the player that you want them to build around, but like he’s played well enough to at least earn a chance to continue on down this path. And I think that’s kind of what these two sides are negotiating here with the contract. But for me, I just think that like I would in general prefer the draft pick route because while there’s more downside with that, there’s also I think in some ways a lot more upside. Yeah. Um I I would hate to trade less if there was a pick with it. I mean, I think that’s really that simple. Yeah. Simplicity. Like you said, letting uh Giddy walk wouldn’t hurt as bad if there was also a first round prediction. like not having a backup plan or something to fall back on or anything like that and just, you know, free willing it out there, you know, and just, you know, woo, it’s another word I want to use, but I’m not going to use it. Um, but yeah, just out there that kind of way is is the issue. And that’s okay to be that kind of way if you’re a team that’s already winning. It’s okay to take those kind of risks. It’s okay to make those kind of moves and do those kind of things if something is already in place. When you’re still a team that’s building and you’re still a team that’s trying to get to a certain level and the certain level is the actual playoffs and not just the playin, that means you’re not good enough yet. And so you need to take everything you need and everything you can do and get to try to be a better basketball team. That includes getting a draft pick attached to whatever player your best asset can afford you. And there’s no debate. He was the best asset for the Chicago Bulls at that point in time. So they got everything they wanted, which is why the grade theirs didn’t change at all. They started with an A. You end with an A. Probably could have gave it an A+ if you wanted to with a title in the middle. You know what I mean? Right. With a ring in the middle and a Caruso shirt. You know what I’m saying? With the four Carusos on Mount Rushmore. Like you get that. And with Giddy, what you got was a good player, but still questions. And it’s still a good player who’s you still haven’t signed a contract yet because you’re like, “Oh man, I don’t know. I know that.” No, it’s fine to have that because of the contract that you’re But all of that is part of the questions go and the fact that you don’t have that piece with you, which is the actual uh uh draft pick or draft picks with you. It it’s it’s just what leaves you just feeling like, damn. sometimes like you would feel more comfortable if you had that and they should have had that honestly. The turn of that knife to me you were negotiating with a team that has more draft picks than they know what to do with that part than they can make than they can make and add to their current championship roster with a current young core many of whom just signed big old wage contracts. That’s it. Yeah. What are you going to use those droppings for? Yeah. Trades. Trades. Yeah. Yeah, speaking to AK’s aversion to picks real quickly before we get out of here. Pelton also regraded uh the Demar sign and trade to the Kings last summer. Originally, he gave the Bulls a C, the Kings a C++, and the Spurs an A. Looking back with a year of uh reflection, he downgraded the Bulls grade to a D, Sacramento from a C plus to a C minus, and Spurs still an A. Pelton said, “I gave the Bulls too much credit in the moment given they didn’t end up with either of the two best parts of this trade, D Rozan and the pick swap. Chicago derived little value from D Rozan’s bird rights and waved Darte after he played just 74 minutes. Shout out Chris Darte.” Yeah, for real. Um, it could have just been like you you didn’t need to include the Spurs. You just take back Harrison Barnes and then if you don’t take the two seconds, maybe get a first and it’s not pick swap. That one to me was always just like, I get that like you get something, but you’re doing the Kings a favor by allowing them to create the space in order to sign the free agent. Yeah. You’re doing the Spurs a favor by giving them the best asset in the trade. Like, what are you getting out of it? Yeah. The joy the joy of helping others. Goat Darte, who you wave two seconds, one of which you’ve already traded. Like, they’re just like just don’t do the signing trade. Yeah. Yeah. It was really that simple. He watched the movie Pay It Forward 20 years after the rest of the universe saw it post, you know, problematic spacey and was like, “Yes, this movie speaks to me. I’m going to pay it forward.” If they had just taken Harrison Barnes back, yo, he’s a fool. Like, he would still line up with their free agency 2026 plan cuz he expired. Like, it just that made no sense. And like they want to I like they eventually want to like bring in good players via trade, right? They trade for Isaac Aoro, they trade for Vu. Like they’ve they’ve made moves to bring in players. They obviously like to perhaps weren’t super I don’t think they were like making the Zack Lavine trade to bring in Kevin Herder and Zack Collins and Trey Jones, but those guys helped. Not at first. Not at first, but those guys really helped them. But like my point is if you get draft picks in these trades, which you could have if you just said, “Yeah, we’ll also take the pick.” Then you can trade those picks to get players and help. Like it just you’re making it harder for yourself when you only get the player back cuz now you want to keep the player and you have nothing else to move in a trade to bring in more players. Like there’s just not using that as currency is just crazy. And it’s all a vicious cycle because it goes back to what Dave was saying a minute ago. Like if you are limiting your swings or your bites to the apple, whatever metaphor you want to use, and you miss on a couple of them, like a Patrick Williams. Yeah. Magnify. It magnifies the problem. Yeah. It magnifies the whiff. Yeah. It makes Well, we didn’t have a draft pick last year, right? We’re not going to have a draft pick again the year after that. Yeah. Like, you know, it feels like you’re missing two players. Yeah. You know what I’m saying? Instead of one when it doesn’t hit like it’s supposed to. if it because then you’re trying to plug a hole. So, you’re putting in multiple things to try to plug a hole instead of actually repairing it. It’s like Chubby Chase with the piece of gum at the Hoover Dam. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Was that Vegas vacation? Yes. Exactly. And it made it worse because Yeah. more of them going to open up, man. So, yeah, bro. That that’s what it’s like and that’s why it’s frustrating when we sit here and we talk about it and why I agree with the grades that they’re giving out here. Uh Mark Anderson, speaking of the Bulls and draft picks that might be misses, saying poor Dalon and Julian, two names we haven’t brought up at all yet today. Uh Coral is going to take all their minutes. And also like with the Demar thing, like they know how this works. Like they did a signing trade to get him in the first place. They gave up a pick for that. Like he did. Yep. Just the pick. They got But they got their pick back. They got their pick back. Go. They had to give up Zack Lavine to do it. Great work. I’m not down on Giddy, Bobby. I’m not down on Giddy. Uh, we will have to pause the conversation there for now. We are back tomorrow with another fresh live episode for y’all. 400 p.m. Central time. Dog Days, Bulls Nation, the true sickos, we are here for y’all. Uh, read go stuff.com. Become a die hard so you can read it. Follow_got big Dave B. Big Dave B of BW Sports. I’m Bulls Peek Show Bulls. That’s the queen of our controls, the one and only Katy DVY. The biggest Jake Gyllenhaal fan. Oh, why would you Why are you trying to piss me off right now? The show’s over. And the show, Matt, we’re rapping and the show feeling silly. Be good. Bye. [Applause] We all silly like the mayor.

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The CHGO Bulls crew review NBA Summer League notes from Spotrac reporter Keith Smith. Smith got quotes from anonymous Chicago Bulls executives and coaches with their thoughts on Josh Giddey, Coby White, Matas Buzelis, the acquisition of Isaac Okoro, and the future direction of the team. Peck, Big Dave and Will Gottlieb also discuss two new ESPN lists: Zach Kram ranking each NBA teams’ worst roster mistakes since 2020, and Kevin Pelton regrading the biggest offseason moves from 2024. Was trading for Nikola Vucevic really AK’s worst move? And do the Alex Caruso and DeMar DeRozan trades look better or worse now than when they first happened?

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