KOC on Giannis Antetokounmpo’s future in Milwaukee 🔮

KOC on Giannis Antetokounmpo’s future in Milwaukee 🔮

Welcome back to the Kevin Oconor show. Joining me right now from Sharp Tech co-host Ben Thompson and Andrew Sharp. How you guys doing? Here we are. I’m pumped. I thought this was a tech conference and a bunch of basketball here. So, I’m not sure. Stumbled on the set. I thought that this was going to be me and KC and then you were an addition like a day ago and now we got the whole Sharptech team here with you. I’m I’m very excited. See, he told me it was just me. So, And it’s a little bit of a surprise here with both you being together. I mean, you guys talk tech all the time. You have your pod, you write, of course, your daily newsletter. You don’t get to talk a lot of basketball together, though. Absolutely. I mean, look, we have to fight to limit the basketball talk on Sharp Tech to like 2 minutes per episode. So, now we get to sort of stretch our arms out and, you know, make ourselves comfortable here. You just did an hour 20 episode this week after a little bit of a break. And not a lot of basketball talk in this one, but we’ll do that today. started with your Bucks, Ben. Well, I don’t know. I I’m a little gunshy about basketball takes because the last time I did a podcast about basketball, real insulting of OKC. Um, I mean, you came hard at Bill Small Market Lightyear. Um, which I thought was a great line. I was really invested in them not winning. So, I’m kind of on a losing streak. That take had some legs during the second round. It looked like you were going to be uh proven right. Well, and sort of like first half of game four and then Scott Foster’s like, “Nope, sorry, not going to happen.” So, Denver had him on their if they had Cam Johnson instead of Michael Porter Jr. with one arm. Aaron Gordon didn’t get hurt. You never know. I think only one arm made him better, but um well, I mean, they made the right right move. The Pacers were right there, man. Oh my god, that game four. I’m pissed off all over again. Thank you so much. If they lose that one, I mean, if they win that one, I’m sorry. It was right there. It was right there. with game seven obviously the the torn achilles just but listen listen stop trying to change the subject does the Yakatonic uh apology need to be as loud as the disrespect was we recording this on Friday day two of summer league and as we speak it is halftime of a heat summer league game happening right over our shoulder has 19 points at halftime after 1 for 15 12 turnovers spraying the ball all over the place the last couple games but look he’s got his seal legs. Now, the new era is here down there. The draft just like I said. Well, let’s talk about the Bucks, though. Okay, the Bucks. Last week, Giannis comes on. He’s on Speed’s Twitch stream. Tens of thousands of viewers watching and he’s asked, “So, are you staying in Milwaukee?” He says, “Probably. We’ll see. I love Milwaukee.” What was Ben Thompson’s reaction when he saw that little clip? No surprise. I mean, I think it he does like Milwaukee. I think he’s a homebody. He doesn’t want to go anywhere. he’s not been a part obviously of like the US sort of basketball coming up and wanting to go to the big city sort of angle. So it’s one of those things probably we will look back historically and he may be someone who’s you know I think will be better than he was better than than he will be sort of ranked in the long run and he’s probably sealing that reality now. Uh the reality is I mean yesterday on the on the way to summer league someone posted a clip of Chris Middleton tough shotmaking in 2021 and not only were all the shots every single one incredible the clip was 4 and a half minutes long and it’s just it’s we’ll never get over the slipping on the floor in 2022 the fact the Bucks never sort of got a full run since then and that’s just sort of a reality to accept and given that um I’m happy to watch Giannis for a few more years. So it sort of it is what it is. I’ve come to acceptance. Are you accepting of the Miles Turner plan the next couple years? So there’s two parts to this. Okay. I’m fully there’s the the Damian Willard sort of cut and extend spread whatever it is and then there’s the Miles Turner part. I’m fine with the Dame part. I think people in the national media are dramatically overreacting to this. The reality is is for the next two years, would you rather have Dame rehabilitating and then Dame as a 36 37 year old coming off in the care or would you rather have Miles Turner cuz the salaries match up like the stretch 20 million plus Miles Turner’s 30 million is the equivalent to what Dame was getting paid. So it’s the three years past that that are the problem. At which point Giannis is going to be 32 going into his 33 season. And the reality is any maximization you want to do of Giannis I think needs to happen now. I think there’s been a lot of BS in the media about Giannis, you know, is he over? No. Last year he was good enough to lead a championship team. I, you know, right up there at the best in the league. So, in terms of optimizing for these two years, I have no problem with that. I think the Miles Turner specific issue is similar to the Dame issue in that I was not a Dame fan and I had to convince myself I was a Dame fan. Ne never been. You and I have gone at it for ages about Miles Turner. Not a Miles Turner fan. That said, Giannis is probably the best possible player to put next to Miles Turner. The other concern I have Turner has never in any iteration of the Pacers has ever had somebody obviously like Giannis. Giannis is a one of one, but he hasn’t any had anybody that even fits that mold, right? Giannis will take care of the boards. Giannis will like like be the be and Turner can’t rebound, so that’s pretty bad. Free free per game in the finals. Kind of. So, the uh the issue I think goes back to the Koozma trade, which uh I’m ashamed to admit I was not immediately appalled by. You sold me on the talked about him flipping the switch. The re Well, no, it wasn’t that. The reason is I think and this goes back to when the Bucks lost against Boston in 2022. Uh Brook Lopez could not be on the floor. And it’s hilarious that Boston Celtics fans try to compare Robert Williams being gone to Chris Middleton being gone. Robert Williams playing was the best possible thing that happened to us cuz we could play Lopez then. If we couldn’t play Lopez cuz they spread the floor. We didn’t have enough players. We literally ran out of players. That’s why we needed Middleton. And I think the Bucks recipe to win a title in the playoffs is Giannis at center. And that was what like while Ole Guzma, he’s not great, put him at the four and then and then Giannis at center. That’s really our only chance against the new NBA offense. Playing with speed and versatility. I forgot we had Doc Rivers as a coach. We never even tried this. Never even went there. But then what’s the organizational like if you if you’re getting a Miles Turner, what the point was get of getting Cal Kusa because you’re now abandoning Giannis at the five. So, uh we have this millstone now thanks to Andrew um around that’s why you were you were very persuasive around the trade deadline because I had been watching Kyle Kosma. Kyle Kosma actually single-handedly poisoned Wizards basketball for me for like a year and a half there. And yet I started to buy into the idea of Koozba at the four and maybe he was just so miserable on a series of forgettable Wizards teams that there was another version of him to unlock, you know, take him back to that Lakers version. Exactly. And then um I watched like two Bucks games with Koozma out there and I was like, man, this is ugly. I think I watched two quarters. So um really the dream was dead instantly with Koozma in Milwaukee. Well, we never like we Giannis doesn’t want to play the five. No one no one wants to play the five. I get that. And we would need a stop gap for the regular season, but you I mean I M five is getting there. You have to find a way to beat these teams that are playing five out and that like just the Bucks have been drawing dead as long as Lopez has been there. I love Lopez. Appreciate what he’s done. Like he was a integral part of winning 2021. The reality is since that Boston series in 2022, we’ve been unable to do anything in the playoffs as long as he’s playing a central role. Absolutely. That’s why turn is necessary. I mean, like for all his flaws, are you a Turner guy? No, he’s always been a Turner guy. I wouldn’t say this for years. Yeah. I wouldn’t say I’m a Turner guy. I I just think he does some things that are useful. Yeah. Right. I mean, the floor spacing, he does make quick decisions. He played in that fast-paced Indiana offense. So when you think about the Bucks this year, it’s like, okay, Lopez, as you said, not quite the same as it was in his prime years. So you bring back Kevin Porter, Bobby Porters, Gary Trent, Ryan Rollins, Torian Prince. You add Miles. I’m sorry. Are you listing Torian Prince as a positive? No, I mean I’m not saying you’re just listing the guys that are brought back and you get rid of D. They are all guys. You lose contract. Yes, they are under contract with the Bucks. And so now you’re in a situation where there’s no true point guard at all. Jiannis is the point guard. Giannis is the point guard. And so I think Turner makes sense. Like you said, if there’s any situation that Turner can be optimized, it’s this one right with point Giannis. Giannis on point guards. It makes more sense if other people on the floor could actually hit shots. And that’s what I worry about with the Bucks. So here’s my question, and it’s really a question for you, Ben. As far as the Bucks investing in the next two years and trying to maximize the next two years, I understand that completely from Milwaukee’s side. And if I were a Bucks fan who cared about the Bucks, I would step back and say, well, what are we really gaining by trading Giannis this summer and starting a rebuild? You can look at what the Jazz did with whatever. You might as well It’s not like there’s a pot of gold at the other end of the rebuilding rainbow either. when you look at my Wizards for the Jazz or the Nets, it’s it’s harder than ever to rebuild in this environment, but if you’re Giannis or if you’re a fan of Giannis, his prime doesn’t have that much more time left at this point. And so I think what frustrates me envisioning the next two years in Milwaukee is the last two years I’ve seen in Milwaukee where Giannis is top three and like right there with Jokic and I guess I don’t know I guess Shay is rounding out the top. Annoying. It’s top two. There’s a clear there’s a clear line and you look at there are like Aaron Gordon. That’s not an anti-shay statement. I think there’s just a level of force. Uh, totally understand. Yeah, I but I put up a very clear number three, I think. And I go back to the run through the NBA Cup, which doesn’t matter. Uh, but it was still really They have the trophy here. Do they really take a picture later? A victory lap. It matters to me. Nine months later. Absolutely. Let’s do it. Look, the true legends of the sport win the NBA cup. James, Jiannis Koopo. Maybe Joic will get one one day. Maybe he can get lucky. We’ll find out. So, but so I remember that run and Gary Tread Jr. was hitting some shots during some of those games and suddenly like if you surround Giannis and Tory and Prince even hit some shots, you surround Giannis with guys who could do that. It gets pretty fun, but the Bucks just haven’t had those guys for the most part. And so if you’re a Giannis fan, do you just want him to play with better players like Aaron Gordon, Jamal Murray, Christian Brown even? They’re all better than any teammates that Yiannis has. I appreciate you noting that Jookic has had much better players playing with him than Giannis has had for for for a long time. Uh I mean the reality is the Bucks have a massive hole on the roster that is in the exact shape of one Chris Middleton. Yeah. Like that that’s just his body broke down. He never like he never really recovered from that slip in Chicago. He already had his a bad knee on the other side that gave him two bad knees and uh and it it really is a shame. But what I will say is I’m definitely much more excited for this year. The last two years have been miserable. There is I’ve never known what it meant to play basketball passive aggressively until I saw Damen Lillard sharing the court with Giannis. And it was infuriating when he was on there. You just wouldn’t shoot. You just sort of stand around and like pass up shots and like pass pass the ball on. And he just could not adjust at all to not being the number one guy. Does Jiannis deserve any blame there? Any at all screening? Yes. No. Giannis is better than Dame. Like this is the NBA. You you you But he didn’t want to play He didn’t want to play pick and roll basketball with Dame. And that was both of their faults. No. So we So sorry, just to make sure I understand what we’re asking is that the 1A 1B best player in the game go out and do the dirtiest work on offense. set hard screens, roll hard to the basket time and time again so that Dame can be catered to and shoot his pull up threes. That is exactly what we’re asking. We’re asking him to be a big man, sacrifice. The team will be much better off to play the five. Giannis wants to play point guard, bring the ball up, initiate from the three-point line. How about Dame move off the ball once? Look, I’m not a Dave fan. I’m not a Dave fan. I was a longtime Dame skeptic and then talked myself into the fit in Milwaukee and within the first month it was like man something is not right here and they never solved it. I mean the fact he’s happy to be gone and to leave one of the best players in the world, one of the best players ever kind of says something. Yeah, I have to stand in as apologist. Of course, like he can deserve some sort of blame, but I think what we’re asking of the two players that’s asking quite a bit more of Giannis than just literally just move off the ball and shoot the ball and you’re open. And to your point, your overall point there, they’re missing Chris Middleton. They’re missing that type of guy right now. And they have the ability to trade their either 31 or 32 pick in the first round, way distant future, but still very high value. No, it’s it’s very high value. Just like we saw with the Nuggets, they traded their 32 with Michael Porter Jr. They got Cam Johnson an upgrade. So for the Bucks, they can trade the 31 or 32, then the swap in the other year. And of course, they have Koozma. Koozma’s the trade balance for sure. The problem is that Koozma requires a pick to move. So maybe it’s not him. But regardless of the salary, Ben, like who are you targeting? Who who are you like trying to add right now for the Bucks to make a run with Giannis? Well, first off, the I believe in a year they can then trade two first round picks 33 and 31 and then a swap in 32 next summer, right? And so that is worth keeping in mind. You might want to wait. Um, one name that I think is very interesting, uh, and very suitable for this table is former wizard Denny Avdia, I think, would be, uh, fits the archetype sort of like a poor man’s Chris Middleton, one might say. Yeah. Um, so I think that that’s something that that that is interesting. Obviously, your boy Trey Murphy the third, everyone talks about that. Uh Joe Dubar’s Trey Trey Murphy Dubars whatever he’s traded I mean he’s gonna get like seven firsts for Trey Murphy because the entire league has been going to be able to get seven first. No I know all bets are off. I would rather have Denny Aia than Trey Murphy though. Really? I the playmaking the Bucks are they have no playmakers on the roster at all. And that that that was the thing that was underrated about Middleton. It wasn’t just that he was a scorer. He led the team in assists. He was a great playmaker. We do need the Giannis as a rower in the pick and roll. That entails having someone that can actually operate a pick and roll. So, uh, as something to go to. So, I think that would probably be my number one choice. But, you know, for next year, Giannis Turner, GT, you know, Gary Tren Jr., AJ Green, Ryan Rollins defend the point. I was wondering how many names you would list before you named Koozma. Not interested in watching him. Got to be totally I mean, look, I just hope the Bucks this year. I don’t trust Stock Rivers, but I hope they play fast. I hope they play around Giannis. I hope we see him have like a triple double. Yeah, you just crapped all over this segment. Doc Rivers is still there. Exactly. I mean, look, that’s why maybe you play out this season. Play it out this year and then you reevaluate the coaching position and then next year you make your trade. Next year you’d roll the dice again with another coach and then you make a run. That’s what I think it is actually. I think this year like let Giannis go for MVP averaging like 3515 and 10 or something like that and then package those two picks with the swap and then Kuzmo will be expiring at that point so it’s a little easier to swallow and then get one more really good player and they should be a much better defensive team next year without having to hide Dame out there because way better he was really really really bad. Okay. I mean, it’s too bad it didn’t work out with Dave. I thought at the least it would be fun offensively. It was not fun, period. No, that’s that’s what’s so depressing. It was actually less fun offensively than defensively, which was not great. Just hard to believe. Andrew, your Washington Wizards are now led by CJ McCollum and Chris Middleton. The vets. Dude, Middleton showed up in one like he made an impact. He made an impact. We would have had the very best lottery odds in the league had we not traded for Chris Middleton whose veteran presence helped stabilize things. I really do think he made a difference in the final two months of the season. Competent all of a sudden and we could have had Khan Canipple on the roster because we would have been picking where Utah was picking. Uh I’m not mad about it. I do think um well actually Khan went fourth. Um, I do think that in the long run, uh, Chris Middleton will make a valuable impact. CJ McCollum, you know, I guess his jersey should say not Jordan Pool next year. Um, I did like Jordan Pool though, too. He turned the corner last year. Three last year. Yeah. So, um, but he is Jordan Pool. He is Jordan Pool and we don’t want to be paying him and allocating offensive possessions to him for the next couple years if we’re investing in some of these young guys and their ability to actually anchor a relevant team in the next five to seven years for sure. And I mean I think that’s what’s exciting for Trey Johnson. Obviously you don’t get Khan, you don’t get Cooper, you don’t get the top three guys, but Trey Johnson with some more guys he didn’t get just to make it feel better. Well, but did you get Trey Johnson? Now he’s mentored by CG McCollum and Chris Middleton in a situation that feels, you know, there’s some stability there for him to grow within, but there’s a lot of guards. Keeshan George, Bob Carrington, among others. How do you feel about Trey Johnson as you know what’s been, you know, three weeks now since the NBA draft? Are you bullish on him? How you feel? We’ve not seen him play yet, by the way. Yes, I’m going to be watching him later tonight. Um, it’s it’s tough. I mean, you mentioned all the guards. It feels like they’re kind of throwing things at a wall. uh and seeing what sticks. I think Keshan George was actually pretty intriguing last year and then they draft Will Riley and looking at Will Riley, it’s sort of like Keshan George part two. He’s like a guard. He’s 67 68 but he is a guard. These long super lanky guys. Um, Trey Johnson, I’m excited that that’s the direction they went because I thought picking at six, you’re more likely to get a valuable starter as as opposed to like a star. And swinging for the fences for someone like Ace Bailey would have driven me completely insane. So, how happy were you when the Jazz took Ace Bailey? I was elated. I was so relieved because the Wizards had been angling for the Ace Bailey swing for the fences and I think Ace the only team he worked out with was the Wizards at some sort of secret workout in Atlanta and so I just didn’t want to go that direction because I don’t think Ace Bailey is going to be horrible but I don’t think that he’s going to be someone that is rewards an 8-year investment from whatever team is betting on his upside and his ability to like anchor a playoff team over the next decade. Uh so they didn’t go that direction and I was feeling good about where the Wizards are. They’ve got a bunch of helpful pieces. Then I watched Cooper Flag last night and the difference between someone like Flag and the pieces that the Wizards have on the roster is just massive. So it it’s a shame cuz I feel the Wizards were actually the best fit for Flag in the NBA. They have a bunch of guys pieces. They just need the guy in the middle. young guards, young shooters had everything. Guys who project as like the fourth best guy on a team partner with Alex Sar like it all made sense around Cooper. Alex Sar if he is a bonus could actually be kind of fun. Alexar if you’re building around him as a cornerstone is going to drive you completely insane. And so we’re waiting on the cornerstone I guess would be my take on the Wizards at this point. But Trey Johnson looks like he’s going to shoot the crap out of the ball. He’s pretty light and I worry about his ability to hold up on defense, but at the rim, too. Yeah. But at the same time, I mean, I I think it’s pretty easy to foresee him being part of a top six or seven for a playoff team in five or six years. Now, Ben, uh Andrews Wizards missed the playoffs last year. The sort of the Hornets, Sixers, Nets, and Raptors. of those teams, are the Wizards the team you’re most bullish on in the future? I I’m gonna zag and say the Hornets. Oh boy. And just because I think uh they’re still the laughing stock and pointed to as the worst run organization. People forget they did get sold. And so uh they they have a former Bucks assistant as their head coach. Uh I think he did a seemed to do a great job last year. very very highly regarded. The name’s escaping me. Charles Lee, thank you. I knew it was Charles something. Um the uh and I think they’re aware that they have a lamela ball problem and there’s just a bit of sort of treading water and getting pieces until then. And I think they did what Andrew just said. He was about the Wizards taking a Kon Canipple. Is he going to be a superstar in the league? No. Is he going to be a very solid starter in the long run? Yeah. like you can uh um all see James and then Ryan Kulkbrer was their draft class. Yeah. Who you mentioning? Uh no, the the uh Brandon Miller Brandon Miller. Man, I’m struggling right here. Uh but Brandon Miller and Conanipple as your two wings if you can get the right on. Total accident the right sort of straw to serve the drink. Uh I sense and can I double down on that? As a Wizards fan, watching the Wizards try to play four-dimensional chess and trade for every bad contract in the league and then clear 100 million in cap space next summer. God only knows what they’re going to do with that. Probably take on more horrible contracts. I’m bracing for it. I’ll be honest with you. I don’t really know what the plan is. And I watch all that and stockpiling all these lanky dudes who have no idea how to play basketball. I look at the Hornets. They’re just making solid move after solid move, hitting singles and doubles. And I’m a little bit jealous of that. And then at the same time, I have to remind myself I don’t have to watch LaMelo Ball all year this year. So I’ll count my blessings on that all year. More like like for 25 games. That’s true. Know that he’s there. I mean, would you rather have LaMelo Ball or would you rather have Damen Miller on your book or Damen Lillard on your book for 20 million years? I mean, Lamelo LaMelo is still young. Maybe he’d grow into something. Dame is on the tail end of his career. I would choose LaMelo personally. Well, and the caveat with the Hornets optimism is like the shot diet for LaMelo and Brandon Miller, their shooting profiles alone is evidence that like the NBA needs to do something about the three-point addiction in the league because Brandon Miller will go out there and take like 52s and 17 threes. LaMelo’s even worse because the threes he’s taking are horrible shots and they’re contested. Wildly driven though. after Milwaukee goes to Boston under Missoula. It’s like very Missoula ball. I don’t want to watch that stuff, man. Um so I guess I will hang my hat on that. I’m I’m not going to watch Trey Johnson take 17 threes next year. The other one of those teams that that is interesting is Philly. Yeah. And because they obviously have these dual albatross of Embiid and George, but they have a shockingly like large number of like young guys that are interesting. DJ Edgecom looked so awesome. McCain obviously looked amazing last year trajectory. So it like there it’s like light years assuming they get him back as well. Restricted free agent which I think I think they will. Yeah. It’s like light years east but in reverse. Like their young guys are really compelling and they’re like they have these like weights that are their old guys. Uh but but they can trade those guys to DC next year. You know, whoever gets Joel MB, best contract in the league. Let’s do it. Since you guys are sharp tech, I have to ask Mark Zuckerberg has been handing out Devin Bookeres contracts to steal people from other companies. How soon until we see Open AI, Apple ask for an NBA salary cap on these deals, man? A second apron? Are we going to see it in the tech world? This is crazy. No. Uh the the tech industry is hilariously to an extreme degree allergic to any sort of collective bargaining or immediate sort of action. The Department of Justice may intervene to be a a necessary factor for that. It is quite interesting. I think the thing with AI is everyone’s trying to do the same thing. Yeah. And there’s not there’s a limited number of people who are good at it. So you actually have salary competition you’ve never had before that looks a lot more like the NBA. everyone’s doing the same thing like all 30 teams are trying to put the ball in the bucket and stop the other team and it’s very measurable. So that’s why the players sort of can acrewue a lot of power and to see those dynamics sort of emerge elsewhere is is definitely interesting. But Andrew no chance of that the salary cap. Um I think there’s a better chance that Mark Zuckerberg buys the Wizards and we start spraying that cash around in DC. Let’s let’s build out the front office and I would love to see it. That’d be amazing. Anybody in big tech, we’re waiting for you. We spend $10 billion. I thought your owner was big tech. Well, AOL had a great run in. Weren’t there rumors of being someone? No, Alice was the Washington. No, Steve Jobs’s widow uh is a minority shareholder in Monumental Sports, which owns the Wizards. And I’m I would love for her to spend on becoming majority owner. Who knows? It’s just tough in the NBA nowadays. You can have the the deepest pockets, but with the second apron, you’re probably not going to spend for too long because of the actual basketball penalty. The valuations have gone to such an insane place that there really are only like a handful of people that can afford to own a team. And so, uh, the teams that don’t have those owners and that are, you know, riding the waves of AOL money like 25 years ago are playing catchup, but we’ll see. Andrew Shar, Ben Thompson, thank you guys for joining, man. It’s great to see you, man.

Kevin O’Connor is joined by Andrew Sharp and Ben Thompson to discuss the future of Giannis Antetokounmpo in Milwaukee — have the Bucks done enough so far? Could the Myles Turner signing backfire? And then the guys deep-dive on Andrew’s favorite squad, the Washington Wizards. Is there optimism in DC after landing Tre Johnson?

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