Atlanta Hawks hit home runs on Two-Way contracts, Keaton Wallace, Jacob Toppin, depth chart, etc.

Atlanta Hawks hit home runs on Two-Way contracts, Keaton Wallace, Jacob Toppin, depth chart, etc.

On today’s show, I am joined again by Glenn Willis of ATL129 to discuss two different players in player capsule form. It’s Katon Wallace. It’s Jacob Topin and it’s coming up right now. You are Locked on Hawks, your daily Atlanta Hawks podcast, part of the Locked On podcast network, your team every day. Hello friends, welcome to episode 2032 of the Lock on Hawks podcast. I am your host Brad Roland coming to you on a Friday evening here into Saturday and today’s podcast sponsor by the folks at the Game Time app. Download the Game Time app, create an account and use code locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. I also want to encourage you at the top of the show as I always do to make a locked on Hulks your first listen each and every day. Check us out and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you get your podcast. That includes Apple and Spotify. We’re also on YouTube. So, please like this video as you’re watching it and tell your friends about the show. This is our third podcast of the week on a Friday evening. Also, our first show of the month of August. We’ll have plenty of content coming up later on this month. Early this week, I did a mailbag podcast on Tuesday evening into Wednesday covering all all kinds of different things about the Hawks. Before that, Glenn Willis will be joining me on this podcast also joined me to talk about Moay on Monday. That’s that was a fun show, I would say, a very interesting player for the Hawks. And uh the basically these player capsules are designed to be deep dives um with nuance that only you can get if you are really covering the team each and every day. And today it’s a two-pronged edition of player capsules. Keon Wallace first and Jacob Tophin. And spoiler alert, I would say the Hawks have done a very very good job with their two-way contracts and in particular with Wallace and Toppin guys who can play and help them this season if needed. And that’s kind of the theme of this episode. But without any further delay, we’ll dive back in right now with myself and Glenn Willis talking about Keenan Wallace and Jacob Top. I’m joined once again by my good friend Glenn Willis for some more player capsule content. Glenn, we are still wearing the same clothes we were wearing when we talked last. How are you? I’m good. I’m good. I maybe I should like a pop diva and go do a costume change in between these things, you know. And uh but uh yeah, people always wonder if it’s it’s the exact same time we record because you have you have the background with with the clock in it. It’s the same time every time and it’s not the actual time that we’re talking. That is a p That is a picture of a wall in the house I rented before I bought the house that I we live in now. Whatever works, man. I’m I’m on I’m remote right now, too. We’re It is what it is. But anyway, we’re going to do kind of a combo episode this time uh about the two returning two-way guys. So, we’ll kind of put Ellie to the side. He’s going to be a rookie. It’ll be interesting. We’ll talk about him. We already did a little bit in summer league. Um, but Katon Wallace, Jacob Toppenhen are both back. They’re both signed, sealed delivered on two-way contracts, and I wanted to kind of do a combined mini capsule episode on the two of them. Um, not going to make my uh my boss Nick Angstead do uh a two-parter on Katon Wallace, Allah, Garrison Matthews. Uh, Glenn, you’ll appreciate this. I had dinner with the lockdown guys at summer league. And uh one of the lead points of making fun of me on the entire conversation was that episode the two-parter with Garrison Matthews is apparently legendary in locked on circles. So that’s Garrison is a fun player to talk about because there’s a he’s he was just an outlier type of guy on the roster the last few seasons, you know, in that sense. Um so hey, you know, you get two sickos onto a podcast and stuff happens. We we had fun. Anyway, uh let’s just let’s talk about with Katon Wallace. Sorry, my voice is giving out. Katon Wallace is back. He has an interesting situation in that he kind of has a role in theory. Like there’s a role available and usually on a two-way guy, you wouldn’t pencil out in, but I’m I’m I don’t know if you’ve seen this before, people are regularly will like, “Oh, Katon’s just the backup point guard.” And it’s like, well, no, he’s on a two-way contract and they have other guys, but because Kobe hasn’t played, and I discussed this with Tyler, I don’t really understand the Kobe animus, but that’ll be put to the side. Um, and but because Keaton is back, um, and played well last year at times, like gave them important minutes, I want to leave with that and say, look, I’ve said it multiple times, but Keaton was very valuable to them last season on a two-way. He was the perfect two-way guy. He helped them culture-wise. He helped them on the court. He played minutes when they needed him. That’s exactly what you That’s exactly what you want out of a twoe out of a two-way contract and earned him another one. Everybody likes Katon. So, none of it is negative. People have framed me as anti- Katon. I’m not anti- Katon at all. It’s very valuable. I was pro the two-way. Like, I’m excited to have him back on a two-way contract. He also is not like going to be like a breakout guy in my opinion. He’s 26. He’ll be 27 pretty soon. And Nage is not the only thing that matters, but he’s not a rookie. He’s not a 20 a 20- year old. He kind They’re signing him to do basically the exact thing he did last year, which is provide insurance, provide defense at the point of attack, give you a point guard at College Park if you want one. Like he checks a lot of those boxes. Is that a reasonable that that that was me talking, not you. Is that a reasonable way to set the table for Katon Wallace returning to Atlanta? Yeah, I mean he’s he’s really perfect for the slot that he’s in, right? um if um they get into an inj situation where they have you know Nikquil Alexander Walker misses a couple games, turns an angle, whatever it might be. I mean I I think people don’t realize like how good of a defender Katon I mean he’s a legitimate NBA level defender you know uh great point of attack his screen navigation is excellent and by the Kobe stuff I you know I’ll just say this Hawks fans that are down on him I will just tell you that is not how the Hawks feel about him. the Hawks are have a have a lot of confidence in Kobe. So, just keep keep that in mind. Uh but for Katon, it’s like to have a guy that you can I mean, if you need to roll ramp him up to 20 25 minutes in a game because you’re resting a guy, you know, four games in six nights, you know, whatever it might be, the schedule kind of compression and all that sort of stuff. You never worry about what he’s going to give you defensively ever, right? And so that’s I think for a guy who’s on a two-way, that’s an exceptional kind of thing to be able to kind of lean on, you know, in that situation. He can go do he can go defend the other team’s starting point guard. He he’s capable of doing that. Now, on the offensive end of the court, it’s more of a catch and shoot guy. Uh he can run a you know, he can run a pick and roll, but it’s not going to be uh he’s not be a guy who’s kind of moving defenders like Trey does, you know, and you know, and causing a defense to kind of overreact to something. He’s he’s not just that he’s not that kind of offensive player. Um, but he’s made himself into a good catch and shoot guy and he he does a 0.5 on the couch. He either puts the ball on the floor, attacks to close out passes or shoots, he does all that sort of stuff. So, he’s, you know, he’s a I don’t know, a young veteran I might say, but he’s just been around the NBA long enough to to know like this is what my team needs of me. This is what my team expects of me. These are the things they’re going to ask me to do. These are the things they’re not going to ask me to do. And he just leans into that stuff where that that uh he can do and but so having a guy who I mean that I think they won three games last year that they don’t win if not for what he gave them in those three games for a guy in a two-way that’s an like pretty impressive thing to say. So I’m excited he’s back as well. I think he gives them just more depth defensively in the back court. Uh and I think that that’s uh something that is go there that they’re there maybe five to 10 games next year where they need him and because of his uh you know level of defensive competence that that helps right a lot of the games that the Hawks lost last year with all the injury turn second half of the season was because they didn’t have depth in the front court right and so um and now they’re kind of building more depth there uh and such but so for me it’s like he’s organization first team first, I’ll do what he asked me to do. I’ll take the assignment. I’ll go out and play hard, play the right way. And that defensive competence is just really valuable to have to be able to kind of elevate him into the actual rotation in games where he might be, you know, managing a a schedule compression or something like that. Brought to you by Game Time. 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If you’re worried about what happens to plans change, they have a game time guarantee. It makes your back be covered by cancellation protection and much more. Take all the guesswork out of buying tickets right now with the folks at Game Time. Download the Game Time app. Create an account and use code locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Again, create an account at Game Time and use that code. It’s L O C D O NA. That’s locked on NBA for $20 off your first purchase. Download the Game Time app today. Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. I’m glad you love with the defense because that’s the thing that um you know guard defense it is what it’s kind of variable, but I think that is his he’s definitely more like NBA caliber ready on defense than offense. That’s just fair to say. Like he is a good defender. He is good size for point guard defender. um 6’3ish, like has good, you know, physicality, plays hard, all that stuff is correct. And it’s you use the term young veteran and it’s true. He was in a 2021 draft, like he’s been around for a while. He’s played like 130 G-League games. Um, you know, a guy that knows how to play. Uh, and then defensively, like like I said, there’s there’s some lineups where you can play him with Dyson or him with Tequille or even him and Kobe, like where they could be really potent at the point of attack defensively, just blowing up the ball like if you want to play that style, especially when Trey’s not unavailable or whatever, it totally makes sense. Um, I do want to throw out like and it’s not anytime I use onoff numbers for one player, it’s never just the player. They can impact things. We said it with Mo recently like they had awesome numbers defensively with Mo on the court. They were awesome on defense with Mo playing. He’s a big part of that. He isn’t the entire part of that. Katon is is very similar and but it also kind of mirrors what we are probably going to get into here with Katon. The onoff numbers for Katon last year were what you would think they are. The offense was pretty bad with Katon on the court. And again, that’s part partly because he’s playing largely minutes when Trey is unavailable. So Trey off the court in general has been a offensive problem for the Hawks. It’s not Katon’s fault, but he’s playing without Trey 90% of the time and without Jaylen a bunch of the time and they had very limited offensive play uh offensive personnel, right? But they also had really good defensive numbers on the court. Part of that’s him. He’s good. He’s much better than Trey defensively. We all we all understand that. and you’re playing some I think Quinn also leaned into it a little bit when Trey was unavailable to say basically we’re going to try to play it ugly tonight. We can’t score with you so let’s make it ugly and it worked at times. So long story short, we could probably agree like Katon is I think a pretty clearly below average offensive player at the NBA level for a for a guard. That’s fine. That doesn’t mean he’s terrible. He’s not. He is he has skills and a good defender. But you’re it’s a two-way. He had the one big game uh I’m sure you’ll remember this one against Chicago where it was the Katon Wallace Daquin Plouden show and they won a game because those guys had great games and it was actually a lot of fun that night honestly and then he played big minutes I don’t know five or six times with Trey out but offensively for the season he had 50% true shooting which is not very good for a guy who’s like you mentioned it kind of in passing he’s not like a pure point guard he’s more of a scoring guard spot shooter at the NBA level. Like he’s not going to break you down off the dribble um to pass in the same way that Trey would. Now Trey is an outlier the other direction, but Katon like kind of has to have his shots go in. He’s not creating huge separation. He takes some tough shots and he takes some catch and shoot shots. That’s kind of what he does on offense for the most part. Um he was better in the G-League, different level competition, but he was 50% true shooting in the G-League. That’s actually good for a guard for sure. Um but he’s not, you know, in the NBA he shot 47% from two. he doesn’t get all the way to the rim that much. Like I’m not picking on Katon. It’s just like I have a hard time sometimes because I’m like we got to acknowledge what he is and what he isn’t. And I we did just lift him up and what he is and he has real strengths defensively, culture, all that things. But offensively, he doesn’t give you starting or even rotation level offensive play a lot of the time at the NBA level. And that’s fine. Like it’s you’re he’s a plugandplay guy. Is that am I being unreasonable? Not at all. So, I mean, the thing for me is that he has the mentality you want offensively, like if I’m open, I’m going to shoot it. If there if the my defender’s closing out of me, I’m going to put the ball on the floor, create a you break the paint, create a pass, or whatever it might be. Um, but I think it’s fair to say like he’s never going to be this like high efficiency kind of kind of guy. But all they really want him to do is make the right read, make the right play, you know, and and embrace what they want to do offensively, which is, you know, cutting and motion and all that sort of stuff. And he does that. He does what they want him to do. So, he’s just the word that comes to mind for me is even though he’s not, you know, super gifted offensively, he’s he’s a responsible guy on the end of the court, right? makes the right read, makes the right play, does the right thing, and um and that’s what you want. If he’s open at the three-point line, he takes the shot, right? If if he’s on the catch, if there’s the guy closing out, he’s going to make the right play, make the right read. He’s just a even though, like I like we’re talking about, like he’s never going to be the standard of of actual NBA rotational guards offensively, but he still makes the right read, still makes the right play. Um, and that’s something that that you want. What coaches you really can’t tolerate is a guy who’s like, you know, I’m going to break process, you know, because I can’t do this or I can’t do that. He’s, you know, he he plugs right in and does the things that they want him to do, even if it’s not at at the high level as the guys who are in the rotation all the time. Yeah. Like you mentioned, he takes about eight free Spartner possessions. That’s a good number. Um, he can shoot him off the dribble. Like he doesn’t shoot a ton of them off the dribble, but he can. That’s an area where he can always get you end of shot clock. Like he’s not a zero. he he can he can get to a look um that will go in sometimes like he had a couple of big scoring games. The big one was that Chicago game, but he had a couple more where he had 15 17 points and like made some shots and he can do that. Um passing like he’ll make he’ll make the simple play a lot of time. Um he does give you another ball handler which is just like while he’s not like an elite ball handler, he is an NBA level guard ball handler and if you need to throw out a lineup with three ball handlers on the court against pressure, he can do that for you. He can be one of your three guys that is bringing the ball up the court. That’s a nice thing to have on the NBA. I think having Katon back um I was never in the like they absolutely have to sign another point guard camp. I would have liked them to honestly but having Katon back lessens the need for that even as someone who’s a little bit skeptical of Keaton’s offense at the NBA level. We’ve now he can play minutes and not kill you. We’ve seen that now. and having another guy who can do that to go along with Kobe, to go along with Canard, to go along with Alexander Walker, etc., etc. Like having a guy that we know they, you know, not all two are created equal. If they had signed, I know it was reported, I’m not picking on Lamont Butler, that they, it was reported erroneously they were going to give Lamont Butler a two-way contract. I like Lamont Butler, but he was going to be an undrafted rookie, and there is inherent uncertainty with that. Like, you don’t know if that guy can play. You just don’t when you sign him. Katon, you’ve seen him play 500 plus NBA minutes and he and he was not embarrassing. Like he was totally fine. And that there’s a big gap between what you can project and count on from someone like Katon Wallace versus a rookie you’re signing, even a second round pick that you’re signing and they didn’t have one, but if they had the 40th pick in the draft, that player is not going to be as good probably immediately as Katon Moss is right now. So there’s some value in that. Yeah. Yeah. And and for a team that you know we everyone’s talking about not just us that is wide open right now. Oh yeah. The Hawks are right there. So to so to have you your if he’s their sixth guard or how how you want to count their guards, right? Would they have that high of a floor is meaningful, right? And so he’s a he’s a high floor defender and and like we like we talked about makes responsible choices on offense and that’d be a guy you can turn to if you’re you know down a guard or whatever. like he’s just going to come in and jump right in and do all the things that you would ask him to do. Again, offensively, not quite the same level as some other guys, but I just I like the word responsible for him, right? You know, he’s just a really really responsible, trustworthy guy that coach can can trust to be on the floor even in critical minutes. I mean, there’s games where Yeah, it wouldn’t shock me. There’s some games, you know, where he’s, you know, seven seconds left, the Hawks are up two or three points. He’s a guy they throw on the floor to go out there and help them defend a possession, you know. Yeah. Or Yeah, that too. Yeah. Uh, you know, would it wouldn’t surprise me, you know, cuz he’s he’s he’s that, you know, just he’s there super responsible, trustworthy, solid guy on the defensive end of the court. You can that you can trust even in on a possession where the G it’s going to swing the game one way or the other, you know, and that’s that’s great to have as a as a six guard. Yeah. If he’s active that night for whatever reason or Trees her or something like Yeah. maybe throw them out there on defense only possession. He’s good in that area. And also, and I we won’t go long on this because we’ll get to Jacob Toppen in a second, but the Hawks do care about the G-League like more than most teams do. They care about it. And having a guy like Katon Wallace to where like he’s going to be in the G- League some. That’s what two-ways are like. And to have a guy like that, he played 20 games last year of the G-League. Even with everything else than he had to play more than he was probably supposed to in the NBA, he still played 20 games in the G- League. And having a guy like that with your College Park crew is actually really helpful. Like he’s a pro guard and knows how to play and get you in your sets, knows the system, been around for a year, a year plus now. Like that’s a small benefit to like most people, but from the team’s perspective, having that safety at point guard in particular in the in the G- League is like very very useful that they like they like that. Yeah. Yeah. Like like your point about the ball handling too. Sometimes I think fans don’t realize how exhausting it is for a starting point guard to bring the ball up 70 times, whatever the whatever number of possessions, especially in the current league. I mean, teams are speeding up more and more and more now. They want to do that. Yeah. So, so to have a guy who can you could, you know, even if it’s just 12, 15 times a game in games where he’s playing where Trey can start off the ball and just and conserve a little energy then bring Trey onto the ball like that that’s big, right? Just I mean, and I know you watch on TV. like, well, he’s just driven the ball up the floor. Like, I think people don’t realize how exhausting it is to to do that over and over and over and over across the game. Uh, and and they to have a guy like Dyson who can do it, you know, have a guy like uh Kobe that, you know, we’ll see, you know, what what his role is like, but to have other guys who can kind of bring the ball up, get you in your set, then bring TR into the ball, just save some some juice. you know, a lot of times where Trey was taking a shot at in the game last year and and I didn’t always love the play designs and all that sort of stuff, you know, but I mean, coaches give their guy the the opportunity to kind of go, but for me, a lot of what when that didn’t go well and and Trey’s made a ton of game winners in his career. I mean, he’s been really good, but there have been other times because they were so short-handed, I thought he was just exhausted in the game. Yeah. and that impacted his ability to kind of create a quality shot and and maybe there’s an opportunity with more uh you know a stronger guard group going to the roster this year. There’s an opportunity to have him be a little more more fresh at at the end game and hopefully better results there. I uh I agree we are certainly in unison that it was a really good two-way signing. Uh very I can speak for some reporting that the Hawks were very happy to have Katon back as well. They offered him the tender, the qualifying offer that they don’t have to offer that guy. That that made clear they wanted him back on that contract. I think their preferred outcome was him on a two-way, which is what happened. And that means everybody should be happy with uh what transpired there with Katon. We’ll get to another guy on a two-way in a in a second after a word from our partners. All right, Glenn, we just talked about Katon Wallace. Let us discuss the other kind of veteran level two-way guy and that is Jacob Toppen who played summer league so people have just seen him play some he got hurt in summer league hopefully not terribly seriously I’ve not gotten a formal update about that but he was still around the team um and by all accounts like everybody that I talked to even non-hawks people were like hey look good like yeah he does he’s playing really well um I think you said this I know I did uh I thought he was their best player at overall in the games he was playing in he was their best player in Vegas even had Kobe, it had Asa, like he’s he looked really good. Um, so Jacob Toppen was kind of the and Katon was much more known to Hawks fans because Katon was much bigger part of the NBA team last year, right? Topin was in New York a lot of last season. He he didn’t come to Atlanta until I think it was March. Um, people know his brother of course. Um, but for anybody that didn’t watch summer league or when we just saw him in summer league, what are the Hawks getting? But Jacob Toppenhen on a two-way. He’s 25 years old, but like besides that, 25-year-old forward, like what what’s the package? Like what what’s the appeal of Jacob Toppen in your mind? Yeah. So, for me, like watching up close like we did got to see in summer league, the thing that jumped out at me that I I feel like you can never really kind of get just watching on TV is the confidence he has. He plays with a ton of confidence. He totally trusts his ability, totally trust his skills on both ends of the floor. Um and and to me, it kind of starts with the with the defense. I thought he was really impactful defending on ball. Um, you know, I know that the one that jumps out at me is that the the game against the Suns where in the second half, you know, Brian Bailey put him on Brea and he Bre couldn’t do anything. I mean, literally couldn’t he scored a ton of points in the first half. The second half, he couldn’t get to anything. And I thought that was that was uh big there. But even on the other end, like offensively, when the ball finds him late shot clock, he doesn’t panic, you know, he puts the ball on the floor, creates a shot, tries to get to the paint, tries to get in front of the rim. uh when he when he catches the ball in a catch and shoot situation, he he no hesitation at all, no conscience about like should I shoot this, should I not shoot this? And so for me, it was just like he exudes so much confidence every minute he’s on the floor in that setting. Now, you know, to try to think that’s going to automatically and perfectly translate to an actual NBA game, you know, where his role will be different, you know, might be there. But I’m like, how did how did the league like let this guy get on a two-way with man? He he was the most confident player on the Hawks by a lot, you know. Yeah. Um and I know, you know, people were talking about kind of some of the stuff that had had Kobe going on and, you know, I was I talked on a couple podcasts where to me it looked like the co the coaching staff was just letting Kobe go out and wanted him to be vocal, wanted him to take charge, wanted him to be, you know, empower himself and all that sorts of stuff. And I and I something I’ve commented on is that you know and this applies really across all the games that I watched in person was you normally in summer you hear constant coaching of the young guys like just constantly you know you’re in the wrong place get over here the Hawks coaching staff was like almost like nonver like they were they threw the team out on the court and said you guys are going to figure it out right and we’re not going to be over here and and uh kind of be talking you through everything and Choppin was a big part of kind of taking some pressure off Kobe at certain points in the game uh and things like that. So, for me, he looks like a guy who knows his path to making real money in the league starts with his defense, but at the same time, uh you could see that his time with College Park last year, he learned what they want him to do offensively, which is 0.5 everything, play on the cut, take the shot when you’re open. And so, he’s already embracing all that sort of stuff, too. So, he really I mean, for for me, the summer league number one was he was just a lot of fun to watch, you know, really really enjoyed watching him play. And the second thing is the you mentioned the confidence, but the other thing is he understands what they want their players to do, right? And and and he’s only with the Hawks the last what couple month like six, seven weeks of the season. I can’t remember exactly time frame, but for him to have like have all that stuff clicking already impressive to me. Yeah. And he, you know, this is to make it very broad and silly like he is that 68 athletic forward that everybody looks for, right? Like he’s the archetype that you want. Um, there’s some scoring chops in there, at least the GL level. I don’t know how much that was going to go to the NBA. He might just be a catch and shoot and 0.5 to your point, you know, quick passes, ball movement, but he averaged 22 points a game in the G-League last year. Like, you don’t fake that. That’s not like you can’t you can’t do that with no with no juice at all. Um, so he has a little bit of that. Um, but you’re right. I think defensively is going to be his calling card at the NBA level right now. Um, you know, same kind of thing. I I wasn’t poking fun at it, but like because they don’t have if you look at the traditional depth chart, they don’t have like a supernatural backup small forward and I’m using that in giant quotation marks. The answer is really Dyson or Nquille to that question um as to who backs up Zack. But Topic could play real minutes. Like I’m not saying he’s going to play every game. He won’t. He’s on a two-way contract. But if you get I would say that he might be one injury away from like being a guy they need um some to play some and that’s the idea of having a two-way guy for for death purposes. And I think he’s like the prototypical much like Keaton at the guard spot. Um Toppin is a guy who like if you got to play him he’s good at guard for you. He’s a decent enough shooter. Like I don’t know if he’s a great shooter. Like there’s some signs of him being able to shoot. I think he’s improved there. His mechanics have cleaned up from what I I I actually went back over summer and watched him shoot some in college compared to now. Mechanics are way better now. As it happens in the NBA, guys just get better. That’s what happened. But defend, shoot some corner threes, make the right decision. Like you can’t go wrong with that combination if you need depth. Like he may not have a ton of juice, but like I love I mean that that another guy who was on a two-way like Heaton, you know what you’re getting. Topin hasn’t done as much in Atlanta, but as far as what we’ve seen, like that’s a kind of again another ideal two-way who is not a kid like he’s a full-fledged adult who can play minutes for you if you need him to. Yeah. And you know and the thing that kind of comes to mind for me on the two-way is um Hawks feel like Ace is not ready first month or two of the season. He buy topphen buys you time to to not have to put on look Glenn let’s just be real. People are gonna be mad at me about this. That’s fine. If I if I have to play 20 minutes if something happens to Jaylen whatever. Pick your guy that’s hurt. It’s October 17th or 23rd, whatever it is, the opener of the season. If I if you tell me I have to play one guy between Asa and Jacob Toppen at the four for 20 minutes on opening night, I would choose Tophin. And it’s not because I don’t like Asa. I like Asa. Yeah. Very clear. I like Asa. Asa was good in summer league. Jacob Toppen is six years older than Asa Newle. Like I mean that’s that’s the thing. like it’s not a shot at Asa at all. I’m sure people are going to think that that’s fine. Rookies are not good generally. Jacob Toppenhen is in a better position to help you today than Asa Nul is. And that’s fine. It’s not it’s not about the the two of them, but you’re right. Not to cut you off, but that that pathway of just like, hey, and also I think we all need to do this and this includes me. This is a team now that is trying to win like full stop. They were, you know, they weren’t never last year. They weren’t trying to lose, but this is a team that’s like in competitive window mode now. They’re trying to win every single game. And guys like Jacob Toppen matter more when that’s the case. It’s not just triage. Like, hey, you’re going to win a game on a Tuesday night. You don’t want to get killed for 12 minutes that night at that spot. And they think that he won’t get them killed. If that makes sense. It does. And and for me, like to be clear, I think Asa has a super bright future. Me, too. I think he’s going to be really really good. A great draft pick. I love him. I love the mentality he you hear just hear him talk about like how I got to get better at this. I got to get stronger. And just him embracing the things that he knows he has to do. I just that really is an an endearing quality he has to just be transparent about this is who I am right now and this is who I have to be in the future. And you just love that. But a guy like Toppin who’s a little bit like Katon, responsible, has the benefit of having played in College Park last year to learn that this is this offensive system we run. this is what you expect of people and that carried right over the summer league where he was, you know, doing those things. So, it won’t surprise me if come February if they’re starting to, you know, give ASA some playing time. You know, you point in the season. Um, but Asa’s going to need, you know, I don’t know, 10 games in College Park, 50, whatever number. Like Asa is going to play down there some, you know. Yep. Um and uh but I mean Asa impressed me a ton in the summer league too, but but just gives you like high floor responsible guy both ends both ends of the court has he can go he can defend I don’t I don’t need not not on point guards but he can defend wings that handle the ball. He can do that. Uh he works I mean he was a really good rebounder in in summer league as well. Just very active and applied himself. Um and and it’s just this the thing that again struck me as his composure and confidence was just just you know not something you always see in summer league guys are you know trying to figure it out or didn’t be in any role or whatever. I never saw I don’t remember seeing a single possession where he was lost didn’t know what to do that never happened you know yeah and and for a guy who played you know had less than two months you know was part of the organization for less than two months last year that’s to me that’s just super impressive I I think he has a real future in the league you know on the last ATL on 29 I was talking about how Hawks at some point might need to put him on a real contract because he’s that good you know he’s he’s that good and and Kevin and Tyler were like well the other team can’t just come in and sign him I’m like a lot of organizations don’t stand in the way of the guy on a two-way who has a chance to go get on a real contract another thing on another team. Uh generally like there’s a little bit of courtesy there to let that guy have that opportunity. And so it’s be interesting to me to see like if you know if they bump him up to a real I mean he he’s that good you know. Well they also might go in uh they also actually was on my list to ask you this at the end. Look, as we’re recording this, they have they have an open spot, right? If they they don’t have to sign anybody, right? Hawks won’t like that. And I I would get I would understand that, but they don’t have to sign anybody. And if they don’t, he’s the kind of guy that you might look up in January and they converted him or they’ve negotiated one of those, you know, friendly deals with, right? Like he’s the I think between between him and Katon, he’s more likely to get that deal than Katon would be. Yep. Um that doesn’t have to be that guy anyway, but it’s just one of those things like yeah, there’s multiple options here. Um I echo the rebounding like he he I think he’s averaged like eight and a half rebounds a game in in the G- League in his career. Like he’s a real rebounder, especially at the three. Like I mean he’s he’s that he’s the only other guy that also I meant to say this, they have a bunch of guys who are like two three combos like Dyson, Nquille, Vit even like that kind of like Yep. Papa is really the only guy on the roster that’s a 34. Yep. Like Zach might be a 34 in another year or two when he’s a little bit stronger and bigger. Maybe he’s already there now. We’ll see. Um and Jaylen’s really a four who can maybe fake it at the three a little bit. Tom’s like a real like combo forward. He’s like the only guy in the rest like that. So it’s just interesting that there too. Yeah. It gives you some flexibility to you need to play him with the four, you can do that. You need to play him with three, he can do that. You need to play him alongside three guards, you can do that. Well, if if you’re facing a team that’s got a bunch of like big I mean not not a ton of those guys, but if you’re playing a your Kawaii defender one night or something like that, like you might have a situation where you need him to go out and guard the best player, which is crazy. Like you wouldn’t project that, but if you get one injury and it’s like, hey, we want to have somebody small defend LeBron tonight or Jacob Tophen, you might have to throw LeBron out there. Uh so, you know, it’s just one of those things. Yeah, for sure. like you know you going up going to OKC and you got got to deal with Shay you know like I don’t think I don’t think he drawen as your first choice there you know like I said the point guard’s probably a little bit of a stretch there but you know to handle Jaylen Williams you know as a secondary creator on that team then that’s something that you can that you can line up there you go down in Miami you need someone to deal with Doran Powell for five minutes a half or whatever it might be you know um then you got that you got that option and so I think those secondary kind of guys the little bit bigger actual winged ball handlers and creators is someone I would trust him on, you know, in a real game. Um, and that says a lot for a guy on a 2A. But it is going to be interesting to me to see if they just keep him on a two-way the whole season long. To me, he’s too good for that. Um, but at the same time, I’m sure they’re kind of seeing where these, you know, these there’s like six to eight free agents everybody’s kind of waiting on landing somewhere and seeing kind of what the leftovers are for that if they if they want to do that or not. But I to me I would love for him to be in this organization for you know three to next three to five years and just continue kind of growing into that role because in my mind he’s he’s a guy you can trust you know he’s not not a guy who’s going to be right now not a guy who’s going to be in rotation every single game but he’s not far from that for me you know um and so that’s that’s helpful. Yeah, the bar is really high for a guy like if you can find someone who is a 68 forward who you think can really defend and actually shoot like you those guys you don’t want to let those guys get away like I’m not saying it and the shooting is the shooting is not a guarantee like there’s some his college numbers were not incredible. I’m not telling he’s an awesome shooter. We don’t know that yet. But if he becomes a shooter that they trust and can help defensively, that archetype of player is very valuable to have. I know he’s 25 already. I don’t want to be misleading. Like I always when I do it for Kat, this is same thing for topic. He’s not he’s not a kid. This is a guy who’s 25 years old already. Like that that does matter. He’s not like a huge like he’s not 20. But as far as like rotational guys, look. Okay. Glad I ask you this and we’ll get out of here. next season 26 27 can you see a world where Jacob Tophin is like the ninth man on the Hawks? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Depending upon uh kind of which way they swim with the draft. They draft a guy that uh is you know we’ll see where their draft pick falls and you know all how it goes. Um we’ll see do they win the lottery? Did the Bucks put them in? Yeah. all all kinds of things. But like the point the point really is like for a guy in a two-way contract. Yeah. To have a reasonable path and I I think he does like again he’s going to have to shoot it and he’s got he’s he’s got to play well. There’s a lot of uncertainty there. He’s not at the NBA level. He’s not had that record yet of a guy who bids is we’re we’re being very positive and I think with good reason. It’s worth acknowledging at the NBA level he hasn’t really done anything. He’s played some minutes for the Knicks in garbage time, but a year from now, there is a path anyway for him to be a rotation player on a good team. And that for a two-way guy is like hard. You can’t find those guys. And to your point, like where the Hawks really struggled last year post Jaylen injury, post Hunter trade was just having those size. And to have a to your point earlier to have a guy who’s 6’8 who can defend wings, who can rebound, uh, and and I mean on offensively too, it’s not just the catch and shoot. I mean, he knows when to cut. He knows how to create, you know, motion on the weak side. He knows how to get into their split. I mean, he does all the stuff that that you want him to do. So, for me, I think he I think he’s a real player. I think he’s a real player. Uh, and it would not surprise me at all to see him be um an instrumental part of this organization going forward because it’s just hard to find guys who are as big as he is that can defend the way that he can and have that kind of versatility. And so they’ve I mean for all three two-way spots, they really gone defense, you know. Yeah. Um you know, but Tophin has more offensive juice than I think some people realize. Now, uh to see him kind of develop some consistency, you know, is is kind of the trick there. Um, but to me it’s like when they signed him last year, I was like, how did how did the league that like how did the league like this happen? Because the dude is like a really good athlete, runs the floor really, really well, and like I said, the thing that jumped out in summer league was just all the confidence and composure he had was just he was just different than everybody else on the floor, you know, in that in that sense. Yep. They’ve loaded up on defense and they’ve loaded up on shooting and that’s I like that idea generally speaking. We’ll spend more time on that at a later date, but um yeah, I I liked long story short of this episode, this combining Katon and Jacob together. Um two really good two-ways, like really good two-way signings. You know, anything can happen. Maybe in three months they it hasn’t worked out or whatever, but as far as like what what we can know, what we can glean in the summer, I’m short of a Jabari Walker like how the world is that guy on a two-way contract situation, which I don’t I still don’t understand. in Philly. Short of short of that, like they did really well in two. I mean, NI is of course much more of a wild card as a undrafted rookie who’s still 20 21, but um as far as like if the goal was to get guys who they can trust to play in an NBA game and that was part of the goal, I’m pretty sure as the Hawks, they’ve they’ve done that, I think. So, that’s that’s what And comes from a championship level team in Europe, right? He’s way more ready to play than Yeah, he’s way more ready to play than most guys would be in that role. It’s just I think offensively he’s going to have a little ways to go, but man, that one I know it was only one game. His one game of summer league defensively was like, whoa. All right. I I can see it. Um especially up close and personal. Oh, this guy’s like an NBA level defender. Now, ex Yeah. Yeah. And he know he know again another guy we talk about all the time. He knows what he can do. He deploys his strengths, deploys his talents, and leans into those things. He was so disruptive that one game he defensively is so disruptive that that one game he played. Uh and I you know so again I mean it’s kind of funny because you go back to before Quinn was hired and the Hawks had like a completely different G-League roster every year. Like just turned over the whole roster every year. Weren’t really building anything. Weren’t really using it as a developmental kind of grounds. We’re not doing development. We’re not doing development. Yeah. Uh um and but you know you could see like Quinn putting ranchet down there for year one you know is uh was just I mean it’s a it’s a lab you know for you to kind of grow your guys and grow their skills and all those all those things and so I feel like sometimes I know some fans just want to watch the Hawks game that’s really all they want but I don’t I feel like you know for people who kind of really want to take the broad view what they’re doing at College Park and the development system they have set up is uh going to bear fruit and there’s a reason why good players are attracted to them is because they believe in the the development opportunity that exists there uh and not not just you know sort of a transitory kind of kind of thing where oh go play for this team this year that you know their guys want to be in the Hawks development system because they really invest uh and can help them kind of grow their game and and I think that’s that’s an asset for the organization that maybe is underappreciated. There you go Glenn, we’ve tackled the two-ways. I appreciate you doing this with me. This will be it will be less sicko from here. Uh just some more some more names for people to people following this that we have to cover at some point between now and October 1. Kobe Buffkin beat Crerachche Dyson Daniels Anaka Kongwoo Zachary Rishet Jaylen Johnson Trey Young and if we want to do the new guys we could. Porzingis Alexander Walker we shouldard. So we got a bunch more to talk about. This is we we did the sicko stuff first. I’m I’m kind of dreading the Kobe response when we because we’re both higher on Kobe than everybody else seems to be, but that’s okay. Uh we’ll get into that stuff later. Glenn, thank you for doing this as always. Please tell people where they can find all of your illustrious work on the Atlanta Hawks. Yeah. So, you know, uh at 29’s podcast, I have a patreon. You can find the link in my uh profile on both uh Twitter or X, whatever you’re calling it. um in Blue Sky. Um and the the for me the next I don’t know six, seven weeks is going to be kind of video video work on player by player. Uh try to do one or two a week uh there. Probably crank one out tomorrow. Um and then as I always say, you know, the other guys I appreciate or you know, Wes and the team over Peach Hoops. Go support those guys too because they did they do a lot of hard work. Absolutely. Um Glenn, thanks for doing this again. I really appreciate it. We’ll have more of these as we as time allows and I spread them out a little bit if possible. But uh thank you as always for the time. Sincerely, as for else, please subscribe to Locked on Hawks and ATL29 and we’ll see everybody next time.

Brad Rowland (@BTRowland) hosts Episode 2032 of the Locked on Hawks podcast, and he is joined by Glen Willis of ATL and 29. The show continues a 2025 Atlanta Hawks player capsule series with deeper looks into a pair of Two-Way contract players in Keaton Wallace and Jacob Toppin.

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