Talking Dallas Mavericks with Dave DuFour of the Athletic

Talking Dallas Mavericks with Dave DuFour of the Athletic

Hey, hey, hey. Hello friends, welcome to Pod Maverick. This is an episode of Kirk Your Enthusiasm. I am Kirk. You guys know me. You don’t care about me. But today I’m joined by my friend Dave Dufour of the Athletic. Dave, how are you? Fantastic. You look good. The beard looks good. Thank you. You think that I put some time into trimming it today or something like that? Nope. Just woke up like this. I had to take some head shots for something and like I had like a neck beard like growing down. It took like 20 minutes to figure it all out and I didn’t cut myself, which is pretty important. Um, you got you got to switch to uh I I’ve gone all electric on my face. Yes. And it’s best decision I ever made. Okay. We may need to to to to reconcile that off the air because that is something I’m actually interested in. But we’re not here to talk. Uh we’re in the middle of of August and August is just depending on your kind of basketball involvement. If you like, you know, European basketball and kind of world basketball, there’s actually a fair amount of stuff going on. But uh in in the case of Nico Harrison and the Dallas Mavericks, they don’t have any of those players anymore. So I am sort of in a a content desert. We’re starting to get like schedule trickles today, which is at least something. But Dave is my friend and has been my friend for quite some time, though. I was actually thinking I can’t even remember how I met you. Probably at summer league. That that sounds through Adam Mahrez. Yeah, probably. Yeah, because Adam Adam’s like the guy at the bar who knows everybody. Mhm. Um, and you know, we uh we actually spent a pretty, you know, couple nights hanging out in Vegas talking to different people, which, um, for you and I, I think is pretty funny because, you know, one of the one of the really great things about going to Las Vegas, in my opinion, is realizing just how much of the media are antisocial nerds and like they’re great to hang some of these people are great to hang out with, but they very clearly don’t human very well, right? And so, it’s it’s always a trip hanging out with some people that are not extroverted, but have to go out in extroverted city. So, you know, you and I always have a good time hanging out and I’ve I had you on probably like three years ago, but just really haven’t bothered you since because you’ve been really boopping around and I get pretty bad with the with the interview type things. Um, but I want to start doing more of these because I do um I happen to it was I forget I’m not quite like you, but I I just I know a lot of people and it’s like I might as well bother them and ask them basketball related stuff. Um, for people who don’t aren’t familiar with you, if you’re listening to the show at, uh, Dave hosts a podcast on the athletic, and I want to get to that in a second, but I want you to first kind of introduce our audience to yourself, like how did you end up in this media bit? Um, you can thank Larry and Nate Duncan. Really? Yeah. Yeah. What So, was this like like talk talk to me about that? I don’t think I knew this. So, I I had been working for a little bit as a basketball coach. Um, you know, I got into coaching. I was a teacher in South Korea on a military base and they needed a girls JV volleyball coach and I knew just enough to be dangerous there. Like I, you know, I understand volleyball and I played, you know, um, but did pretty well and I really enjoyed it and I had already been training kids in the gym like playing basketball and stuff so it was a natural sort of transition. And then um yeah, I got my I got my first coaching job not long after that uh that I was in no way qualified for. Fantastic. The best kind of job. I was in Germany and and managed to um convince a club to give me one of their, you know, one of their worst teams and I took it over and you know, I worked there for four years. By the end of it, I was doing player development essentially for like the five year olds and the 75 year olds. just the way that the the club worked. Um, yeah. And then I moved back to the states and I was coaching at a small high school in Arizona and didn’t know anybody and Larry was teaching sports business classroom and so I went as a student. Oh, and while I was there, Nate, I was like, you know, we were at the end of the week and everybody was asking me what my plans were, what I was going to do, and Nate Duncan asked me, “Have you ever thought about podcasting?” And I my response was, “Not about basketball.” And a couple weeks later, I started a podcast during the the 2016 Olympics. And I was the only guy who knew all these players. you know, this is early on when the the initial run of of people really getting into international basketball during the summer content wise. Um, so I was early there and then I don’t know, the athletic kind of found me. Jade Hoy found me. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Some of that I didn’t even know. I remember some of it as you were talking, particularly the stuff at at working overseas. That that makes a lot more sense to me and and kind of how we how we got here. And it’s funny, I came a little bit like just the oddest angle you could possibly take. I mean, yes and no. I mean, the people that get involved in the basketball, like the what’s it what’s the sports business class called? Sports business classroom. So, the sports business classroom takes place the same time as Las Vegas summer league. It’s like a hub of people. And a lot of folks that that go to do this have gone on to do really interesting things in basketball. If you ever want to know more about it, it’s it’s worth looking into. But I will say this is a I please tell me you think it’s a fair criticism. The kind of folks that are interested in this aren’t exactly the most boisterous of personalities. So I I I feel like that’s where you probably stood out just by being it’s the same thing as a media member. Like if you’re I was also 35 years old, you know. I mean nobody knows how old I am, right? And so helps. I come in a little bit um more of a fully formed human being and you know I’m I’ve also have a varied background that I don’t necessarily want to get into but let’s just say I’ve spent a lot of time in front of large groups of people. Yeah, large large groups of people doing things that are much more difficult than talking about basketball or you know or any of that. So yeah, I’m good in a room. Um so yeah. Well, and that that sort of leads me like directly into where what you’re doing now. So, you’ve been how long you’ve been hosting this athletic daily show for three seasons or this was our first of the NBA daily, but I’ I’ve been at the Athletic Athletic Adjacent for a while. Seventh season. Yeah. No, I because you were on with Kate. A lot of our listeners are familiar with you with the the um the podcast you did with Tim Ko, but so you’ve been doing this this daily show for for a while. and talk to me about the initial pitch for the show versus kind of what it’s become because you talked to me about this in summer league and you seemed like just for audience full disclosure there’s times Dave’s been like why am I doing this I don’t want to do media anymore and then this summer you were like I think you seem to me at least you you’re you’re genuinely kind of enthused about how it’s going so so I want to hear about that for a bit well my pitch was um what if we did something every night that was fun, you know. Um, not that we weren’t making fun stuff, but that wasn’t necessarily the goal. And to me, you know, look, basketball, man, I’m so lucky that my job is to watch basketball and then uh I get to bat it around with people that I like and have fun doing it. Why? Like, why is so much of basketball media negative and oddly angry? And I think it’s a lot of that. Look, I don’t want to dig into the psyche of what it takes to watch this many games because man, it is a job no matter what. Like everybody knows this. Every dream job turns into a job. Mhm. But there is a certain amount of like why are people listening to you hate watch or whatever. Now look, we were lucky. We didn’t have that problem at the Athletic. Um I thought the Athletic NBA show was mostly a positive show. Of course, there’s some negative criticisms and stuff like that, but it was a it it was a to me a good show that I was proud of making, but this was an opportunity where we needed to we needed to make a pivot. And I thought, well, why not make it fun like a like, you know, like the Tonight Show almost, you know, um back when it was good. Um it it should be fun. We’re going to relive this awesome thing that just happened last night. Uh we’re going to talk to somebody about the big story of the day. Yeah. and it was functional instead of just being like a waste of your time. You know, our our show we’re aiming for 25 minutes, so it’s very important, right? It it’s just I don’t know, respecting your time. We get in, we get out and I would actually say, man, you know, not to toot our own horn, but I want you to toot your own. We have as much in there when you when you just if you’re just weighing the meat of the show, we don’t have fat on on the show. So there’s not a lot of, you know, you you listen to a podcast, someone will do a threeinut monologue where they don’t say anything. I mean, it’s not even word salad. It’s it’s word like end cut offs from making the salad. It’s it’s nothing. And I we just don’t have that problem. And and it’s a nice problem to not have. You know, filming 45 minutes is much more difficult than 25 minutes. 25 minutes I get to prune, you know, I have to leave things that I want to talk about off the show unless they come up. So, I actually have enjoyed it. Um, you know, I imagine it’s kind of like what, you know, to a certain degree, you know, the way that they work on Saturday Night Live, the way they work on any sort of daily show, like that’s the way we approach it. Like, we write jokes for each other, you know, like it’s it’s a fun time. I mean, it’s just as far as um, you know, NBA podcasts go, it was an opportunity to just do something different than anybody else was doing and and it kind of hit. So, um, you know, people seem to like it. I agree with that. the the appreciation of the listener’s time along with the intent to have a positive energy really goes a long way because you know one of the things that that works for like the NFL for example is that there’s just not enough games so you there’s a lot of like excitement around the game itself and then with like basketball by February and January it’s a bit of a March and so even as like a as a fan you can be like, oh well, okay, back to do this again. So, it’s it’s nice to get and and shoot knows our our podcast is guilty of that as anything where it’s it’s just nice to tune in and listen and and hear about some of this stuff. So, it’s if you guys haven’t subscribed, you know, it’s the Athletic NBA Daily. You can search it, find it easily. Um, they have some there’s a special episode that I have yet to get to, but can’t wait to hear. It was the Basketball 100 that they put out yesterday. Is Kyrie Irving the best number two ever? Um, this was it it wasn’t necessarily it was hosted by like Jared Weiss and Tony Jones. I mean, and so it’s like they they pipe in some other shows into the feed too that are worth listening to because, you know, it’s The Athletic is uh has changed a lot as a company the last seven or eight years as as we move away more, you know, from print media, leaning more on the audio and the video. And it’s it’s some good stuff. I recommend it and and it’s we have the we have the best newsroom and and writers. in sports. I mean, like, no one is covering the like any of these sports in the way that The Athletic is. And so, it’s nice like during the summer, number one, you know, I I’m doing the show every night. It’s nice that I get the the break, but it’s also nice that we get to feature these guys. The NBA 100 especially, which I I have the book, it’s a little too far to see, but that bright orange book right there, David Aldridge, John Hollinger. I mean I that book in and of itself was just you want to talk about a labor of love from people who they like they love this like I do and it makes it really easy to to work there man. It’s um you know it’s kind of a dream job especially now that it’s all you know I get to it’s Dave go have fun talking about this fun thing. Okay cool. I think I’ I’ve made it. That leads me into some of what I wanted to ask you about next because as we’ve talked over the years, you’ve you’ve really waxed and waned about what you do and don’t like about the gig and you’re pretty honest about that even within the coverage, which is I think kind of nice because you it it allows you you know who who among us has not liked our job. Um but it it you’re you’re in a place right now where it seems like everything is is is really um fun. So that I I want to know. So, this is a two-pronged question. Both from your kind of point of view as an analyst, and then from uh the point of view as a basketball coach, of which you still are an active basketball coach. Uh I ask you basketball stuff all the time about my child. Um what’s what do you like about basketball right now from from those those two points of view? Oh. Uh NBA wise, yeah, let’s start first. Yeah. I mean, with the NBA, I right now like I am enjoying the parody. Okay. And it’s not true parody, which you never have, right? Like there’s always going to be bad teams and there’s always going to be the crop that’s above, you know, the the pack, but this is the first time in my life that it’s felt like if if if a team made, let’s say they’re middle of the pack, but they just nail a mid-season trade that they could get themselves out of that and into contention. That’s never actually been true. Usually teams when they make a big mid-season trade, it’s for next year. Sure. At best. And now it feels like we’re going to get the wheeling and dealing we’re going to get is going to be more teams that are just out of contention trying to go for it. I mean certainly the case with the 2024 Mavericks. That’s I think the Mavericks were the first team that really did that and and you know you look at what they’ve done since and you you say well man uh why’ you abandon that that track so fast? But they were one of the first teams that I thought did that. They addressed all their issues. They they lucked into some stuff. you know, Derrick Lively becoming the player that he was like right away obviously made the Gaffford deal even better. But, you know, it’s just I I like that aspect of it. And I’m not one of these guys who’s watching I don’t watch these players as their contracts out there on the court. I try I have and I’ve gotten as far away from that as I’ve been able to over the course of the last few years like where it’s become so much more uh less important I think for fans too. the CBA constantly changing and being more confusing and Larry exiting the scene on the FAQ. So, I I do think that we’re seeing like a regression back to Hope so, right? I I think fans caring about the contracts, it stinks. It’s not fun. Y um I I’m not that guy, but I do now watch and I say, “Hey, look, okay, so this team’s bad. Who’s going to get this one good player and actually change their season?” because previously it just didn’t matter. You know, the these these trades on the margins just weren’t as important. And now you not only have to have I mean you got to have talent, but you got to have talent to like the 10th man. And that is much more fun. Again, this is where the basketball coach in me comes out, right? that the Pacers team this this last year, watching them get healthy the first, you know, couple months of the season and then just hit the gas immediately as soon as they had their full roster and could play nine or 10 guys a night. Um, that was that to me was a game changer. And if you look at what everyone’s saying coming out of this playoff run, the two deepest teams are who were in the finals. It’s it’s a war of attrition, which we talk about all the time, but we only think about the stars in that. I I mean I think that you’ve got to be you’ve got to have a team that’s so deep if you lose a star during your run you can withstand it and that’s a different that’s a different world that wasn’t even an option before and part of that is again back to why I’m really like loving basketball right now the talent curve has flattened so much that your 10th man is not that far off from your fifth starter and I do think that when you have this much talent in the sport it’s going to be tricky, right? Like these guys have almost solved basketball and I think that that can get hard to watch in its own way. But I I do think like we’re at the point where every year we’re finding new stars. Maybe not superstars, but new stars, new guys who can do I mean Andrew Nemhart was on no one’s radar, right, a year and a half ago. And now, you know, people are talking about, wow, I mean, he could be the lead guard for whoever, you know, and he’s just one example of of these guys that are kind of being found through that. And I love those kind of stories. I mean, Danny Green forever was a good bit for me because of just like his path to becoming this really great player. And now there’s too many guys out there. There’s too many Danny Greens. Good problem to have. Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s fun. It’s way more fun. I mean, think about football like when like a third string running back would get a chance and he’d become a real, you know, we would get excited for those guys and now finally basketball is like that where you you’re going to find more and more stars, you know, that that didn’t seem like they were stars a couple years ago. I mean, Jonathan Kuminga gets to a different team, maybe he pops. I I think he’s got enough talent that something like that could happen. It’s not likely for him, but Sure. No. Well, and then that that leads to the second half of my question because you are still an an active basketball coach. What still provides that that thrill with coaching? Like what what do you get what do you get from it? I want to hear that. Um some people play chess, man. Okay. And I don’t I don’t like chess. Um the thing about thinking about basketball from a strategic standpoint, it it scratches the itch, you know, to solve a problem. Um and no one’s solved basketball yet. So until they do, it’s a fun thing to think about. I mean, uh, I was I was in Europe the last few weeks and, um, you know, I had a chance to hang out with a lot of my basketball friends and, you know, couple guys that I hadn’t seen for two years. You know, I was on the coaching staff with them and, you know, we catch up all the pleasantries and whatnot. And one of the assistants, he says, “Uh, guys, I’ve been thinking about offensive rebounding on shots from the corner.” And we s we sat for three hours drinking very good wine talking about the concept and and how we would change the way that you crash the offensive glass on shots from the corner and and that’s the kind of stuff that I just I don’t know it’s fun you know um I grew up I don’t know about you but I I used to read a lot of history a lot of and a lot of military history because I found war and the tactics and strategies interesting and so I’ve always kind of had that in you know in my sort of uh playground ground where I like those those concepts. So, basketball really allows me to to think about things a little bit differently. It’s funny, you know, I’m I’m 41 years old. I’ve played basketball since I was five, and there’s still so much about basketball that I simply don’t know, can’t explain, and really want to know more about. I mean, some of it comes from the fact that I have a nine-year-old, and like trying to explain different concepts to him is pretty fun. And so like this summer I reached out to one of someone I think you know is TF Franco who is over in Europe and he linked me up with I think his name’s uh Luca Basson I think is his name who’s this European coach who just he shot me a bunch of clips of of different players doing different cuts because I was like I just can’t explain this stuff to my kid. And there’s so much stuff to learn from basketball if you’re interested. And that’s really one of the things that keeps like pulling me back to the game. I mean, there’s there’s so many different ways to play the game. I mean, the NBA, I think there’s elements of it that we’ve fixed, but it’s like you’re watching like elements of college and some classes of European basketball where the shooting skill just isn’t there because it’s shooting is an incredibly difficult skill. So, you have to find new and different ways to solve and score and defend. And there’s there’s just always something there. It’s it’s it’s it’s pretty fun. Well, you know, I tell people all the time, I mean, if you if you really want to get into basketball, the NBA is it its own sport. NBA basketball is a separate sport from any other league on the planet. NCAA maybe being the closest as far as style of play, the above the rim league. It doesn’t really exist anywhere else. But women’s college basketball to me in like NCAA women’s college is the best example of basketball when it comes to game flow. Uh appreciating the fans time when it comes to watching the game and then diversity of attack. The women’s game has post-ups. This is why everybody like when they watch the Olympics and they watch Euro Basket which is coming up, they it’s seeing post-ups reminds you of basketball and it’s because it is. And so, you know, there’s a there’s a world in which the NBA could solve this and get us back to this more diverse thing, but it would take away some of the show of the NBA, like the athleticism. Like, defensive 3 seconds does not exist anywhere else. But without defensive 3 seconds, you don’t get as many in-game dunks and, you know, layups and you don’t necessarily get the the high, you know, the the fast pace and the scoring that the NBA wants. So, you know, they do it kind of for aesthetic reasons. And then there’s also they play 82 games and if you clog the paint, guys get hurt more often. So that’s actually something to consider too, although I don’t think that that was in the in in their thinking. But I I I’m on this thing where like the NBA I just put it in its own box as its own type of basketball and then the rest of the world and and women’s game um you know is is kind of where I scratch my real itch and and enjoy it. I mean, I was watching WNBA last night, you know, um watching the uh the Dallas team try to blow another game. So, um they’re they’re a special watch. Well, they’re not good, right? Um you know, I’ve seen them enough to know that, but Oh, yeah. That was a that was a rough one to watch. Well, I could I could continue to ask you various like broader basketball adjacent questions because there’s just so many things that I I think about and it’s like very what? Well, I mean, and I end up texting you about it a lot because like that’s what’s one of the things that I realized pretty quickly with my own child is like there’s a whole bunch of stuff that I know but I can’t teach. And being able to like find an adequate teacher and means to teach is really important because basketball is the sport I think which is pretty easy to pick up and incredibly difficult to master which is largely the appeal. You know, you can show someone how to do it but unlike soccer for or fball if you’re European where you play three on three, seven on seven, five on five in basketball there’s just not the formatting set up to do a lot of small skill games like the two on two matchups. So, I it’s as as I’ve been watching a lot of this stuff and trying to help my son see things, it’s it’s just it’s wild to me, you know, the way that you really only can learn by kind of progre like like different situational stuff. Like Seth, our friend Seth Partner and I were talking about this where he’s just like you if if you want to learn to play basketball, you have to play basketball. Yep. I mean, I I will tell you as a coach, I am a firm believer in scrimmaging every day. Every day. live 15 minutes. Uh, I want to just roll the ball out. Call your own plays. I mean, try stuff, right? I mean, exactly. Try stuff. Um, you know, Rick Carile is really good about talking about this, but I am of the same mindset. Like, we have plays, we have, but but bigger than that, we have a philosophy. I don’t want to call, as a coach, I don’t want to call plays constantly, right? Uh, it’s not football. You don’t have the downtime. you you’re running a you know a million miles an hour in your head and trying to trying to keep up with traffic. Uh I would rather just rely on principles and watch guys get into flow. Make plays don’t run plays, right? Like that was, you know, and on a on a timeout or hey, it’s a critical possession. Okay, we we’ve got our bread and butter stuff that we’re going to go to. But I I you know, I I do think that playing is the most important thing. I look at it more as a coach, you can be one of two things. You can be overbearing and you’re not going to really, in my opinion, you’re not going to get much. Or you can be uh, you know, like let them go free and create art, but then create the rules in which that art needs to exist. So, I just make sure they got a clean canvas. Here’s your brush and here are the colors we’re going to use today. Please paint me a masterpiece and just, you know, sometimes you you get some special things. Um, you know, I think the best players, you look at Steph Curry, nobody told Steph Curry how to be Steph Curry. Mhm. I don’t think that, you know, there’s no coach in the world uh that’s going to tell him to be Steph or how to be Steph Curry. Now, I think Steph Curry told him to go be Steph Curry. Yeah. But nobody told him how to do it. Michael Jordan is the same way. Um you know, all of the greats have really been the more creative guys. Well, this leads directly into my next line of questions, but we’re going to take a quick break. I’m going to insert some ads here. Dave, you and I will just sit here in silence for five seconds, but I’ll put it in the audio feed on the back end because I don’t know how to do anything live. So guys, hang out. We’ll be right back. Okay, thank you so much for hanging out. This is Pod Maverick Kirk Your Enthusiasm with Dave Dufour. Now, we’re going to actually talk some Maverick specific questions. We were talking broad basketball stroke stuff and we were, you know, talking a little bit about development there before the break, and I want to know, uh, off the top of your head, you know, what were your reactions to watching Cooper Flag play basketball out there in Las Vegas? I think it was good, man. Um, look, NBA body, I’m a body guy. Mhm. NBA body day one. Great. That’s a great sign. Uh, number two, he was shooting. I don’t care if he makes shots, but he has to shoot. And I liked that he came out just gunning. Uh, especially off the dribble from three. I think those are good signs. But, you know, overall, I mean, I he kind of met the expectation, you know, that I had for him. I I would love to see this guy ditch the t-shirt. Oh my god. It’s got it’s got to go. Him and Anthony Davis both wear these constricting t-shirt and it’s like, “Guys, don’t do it. You’re you’re in prof a professional league now. Come on. You have a professional body, too. Like, he’s got the shoulders, you know, is I I made a joke on on one call I was on a couple weeks ago. I was like, does he have like shoulder acne he doesn’t want people to know about? We’re in the NBA. You can take care of that.” But yeah, that that that that’s a funny that’s a funny note. I I tell you where I get to me and I was explaining to to some to some other uh kind of I’d call them they’re mass fans in the area here, but let’s just say the Luca thing turned him off quite a bit. You can’t put a price on how hard this guy plays and that is like playing hard is a skill that I don’t necessarily think you can develop. I think you either have it or you don’t. and his internal motor, like watching him just want to murder everyone the whole time he’s out there is really awesome. And and that was probably the thing that I got the kick out of the most because he had two dunks, neither of which he completed, but two dunks where it’s like he was trying to end someone. And that level of attack brings it it that that’s the sort of thing that that really can help make a team go from, you know, just give them that little extra push at key points in the game. And you know, Luca had that to a degree because he’s a has that to a degree because he’s a psychopath himself. But it’s different. It’s just different because Luca is so um hot. Like he runs hot on the outside and I feel like Flag runs very cold. Yeah. In a way that’s going to be much different to watch. I’m I’m very much looking forward to him. Almost like Jaw Morant. Okay. With Cooper Flag, right? Uh, you know, J is actually pretty chill, but he is constantly trying to just wreck somebody at the basket. I think that that sort of mindset from a guy who needs to get downhill. I think it’s going to be good for for him. Um, but yeah, I mean, I look, he he checked every single box I would need him to check for a summer league appearance. I think the the real tell is going to be what does he look like, you know, when when the season starts and it’s just him out there um playing against NBA guys, right? like how is he going to deal with the first, you know, couple months of the season when they’re short-handed? Well, the Well, I mean, they’re they’re such an odd team, and that was actually my next question because they’re forwardheavy in a way that I don’t think most fans understand what that means. Yeah. And they are very talented. They have a talented team, but if you were to put those those skill sets, like if you were to list them out and then rank out like ball handling, rebound, defense, well, ball handling is like zero. They don’t have it. They got one handler. And I I and part of me I uh our our friend uh Tim Ko, I he was the one who put this idea in my head. He kind of questioned whether the Mavericks organization values ball handling at all. And I can’t imagine that’s the case. I mean, they have to. I mean, it really does feel like they’re trying to build the 2020 Lakers without LeBron James. I don’t know what is going on. You know, they’re going to be a smashmouth style basketball team where I put their floor is actually pretty high, but then their ceiling extraordinarily low because they’re just and and you know, fans this time of year are really excited and I think they should be. I don’t want to dunk on anything of that regard, but it’s Jason Kidd is going to prove his value as a coach this year if he’s able to get this team into a playoff contending group. I I don’t want to be negative, but it’s just I think fans are very much undervaluing what a solid, you know, Dallas has always had good point guards, right? D’Angelo Russell is a good secondary guard. He is not your lead guard and he’s gonna have to be it. I don’t I like this is the big the big problem that they have going into the season and that’s a bad thing for Cooper Flag, right? Like I don’t I don’t know that he needs to be your secondary ball handler to start the season. And he’s going to be I think and and he he showed something at summer league, you know, he only had three turnovers in 60 minutes at summer. Yeah. Think about how much ball handling. Yeah, that’s good. If I’m a bright, if I’m a sunny side up guy and I’m remembering what kid did with Giannis Attento in terms of just giving him the rock and saying let’s go, that’s actually really exciting. However, that does not necessarily lean into wins. I hope it does. It’s just going to be hard. I mean, if his if his shot off the dribble is going to develop, which would be amazing for him. I mean to be able to be a ball handling four who can who can shoot off the dribble would be very unique especially with his defensive skill set. Uh it would make him you know I puts him in contention like where’s the peak of his career? He’s top five maybe in the league, right? Like that’s a that’s a great outcome. I just don’t know if I’d be banking on that if I was a team that contend. If you’re hoping to contend next year, this is not the way to do it. um doesn’t mean that they won’t be in the playoff hunt cuz like you said, I think that their defense is going to be really good, which is the most important thing for for winning in the regular season. Um but when it comes down to it, not being able to score is going to hinder them. Like they’re not going to be, you know, a homec court advantage team for sure. I mean, I think it’s safe to say that. And it almost makes me feel like there’s this hope that Kyrie is going to be back. There is. Yeah. And I I just do not understand why we are ignoring the years and years and years of documented evidence that we have about players coming back from ACL terrorists and Kyrie Irving coming back slowly, right? I I just don’t understand why everyone is so willing to ignore that. I mean, the guy is doing Twitch streams like or whatever, right? Where he talks about how it’s hard. Yeah. Um I was going to say like he’s talking about it, right? Like it’s I don’t I just don’t know. I mean, these guys aren’t themselves usually for about 18 months. Mhm. Not and we’re talking they’re looking at less than a calendar year hopeing hoping that he can come back for this push to the playoffs or something. It just feels to me like when Kyrie went down, there probably should have been a talk about a pivot and especially once they got that number one pick because Anthony Davis has a lot of value. And I don’t want to get into like things that aren’t going to happen, but it does feel as if this team just is being a little bit just hamfisted together at this point. I feel it’s like they had an opportunity with the number one pick to not if they’re not going to pivot by trading away players, they could pivot by trading away expectations. And instead, they’ve leaned in. And the talk at summer league was even like, you know, this the the the overunder win totals for Vegas has them at like 38 to 42. And then you talk to different media people that are just like, “Oh, well, I I’d see them winning 44 to 50 like 50 games and it’s just like that’s a big difference.” And so I I I don’t mind the change in expectations. I would kill them either way because I get frustrated with Nico Harrison, but I just think that like lowering the temperature on expectations this year could really be fun or could could make the season a little more like like expectations are the thief of joy. So, it just it really and and I want to enjoy Cooper Flag and I’m going to enjoy Cooper Flag, but I don’t want it to be like the the cause of strife with wins and losses. Now, I will say the one thing that that if you’re a Cooper Flag upside as as I think everyone kind of should be. Our friend Jay Kyle man of the Ringer has been following this guy forever and you watch Cooper Flag like Cooper Flag was primarily a defensive prospect as recently as like two years ago. people didn’t know about his offense and then he came in to Duke and his shot has been reworked and he is progress like this is the age when guys I I’m I’m I’m of the opinion that 16 to 22 is kind of your key like maybe even 20 kind of your key that’s when you’re making leaps in your game. Yeah. Uh because your body’s changing maturing but also your brain like there’s just things are coming together. Um my that’s why my theory that Dennis Smith missing basically two years was like disastrous for his development. Anyway, I don’t disagree with that. So for Flag, if if you’re an upside guy, like he could come in and maybe all this summer, all the different ball handling work and stuff he’s doing where he’s learning to read and react, maybe that pays off after the first 20 games where they, you know, maybe go nine and 11, you know, and then all of a sudden you’re like, you’re petering, you’re holding off, and then okay, we’re gonna push past the 500 mark. That’s got to be your upside thing. But it’s just it’s a it’s just a lofty thing. I mean, I learned the other day that Markeel Folultz was the last number one overall pick to to go to help a team make the playoffs, and he didn’t really help a team make the playoffs. Like, right. Number one pick is a lofty expectation thing. Um, all right. I kept you too long here, but I got like kind of a couple more questions. What in the world what in the world do do should Mavericks fans make of Anthony Davis? because his numbers look great and then his gametoame impact is so preposterously varied. I don’t know what to expect of the guy and I’m sort of just I already am frustrated by him and I don’t I I don’t want to be. It’s not fair to him. He’s tricky because he might be one of the best individual defensive bigs ever, right? His instincts are amazing. He is. But would you say that he raises your team defense tremendously? That’s It’s a weird thing to say. He really hasn’t. He really hasn’t. And it’s shocking when you get into the numbers. Yeah. And I don’t know if that’s because in certain games he’s so hilariously ineffective, whereas in other games he’s just a he’s just an iron curtain. I I don’t know. And it’s hit or miss. Um, even sometimes like it’s just I the swing on him is massive and and I would say the opinion swing on Anthony Davis, he probably the the greatest swing between any player in the top 50 in the NBA and he’s a top 50 player. Um, but nail down where he is. Is he a top 20 player? I think people would argue against it and he might be and some nights he is. the bubble was the the one of the more interesting times ever. Um because Anthony Davis, not only did he do had an amazing defensive run um and so did LeBron, by the way, which is really that’s when Anthony Davis has been at his best, but his offensive game has just not touched what he did in the bubble ever in his career. I mean, he’s well, he started not for not for the length, and I think that’s what’s important. like the first 20 games of last year, he was number one in the NBA’s MVP ladder. he was posting. I had somebody was sharing some numbers in my in my uh I can’t find the numbers anymore, but he was he was like 32 and 12 for the first 18 19 games last season. And then you look at his and then he just kind of falls off a cliff and that’s what happened in the bubble where he got on one of these hot streaks and he’s capable of that. But the consistency of play to be considered a top 10 NBA player is not there, right? It’s it’s you know what I mean? And that’s not a criticism because being a top 10 NBA player is ex the the difference between being top 10 and top 15 is tiny degrees of separation. That’s not to say he can’t lead a team to the playoff or anything like that. It’s just mostly expectations night in and night out. And you go to the guy’s like like uh game log and he always rebounds well. Got to give him credit there. He makes he does, you know, he passes the ball fine. He’s not a high turnover guy. But then the shot making it comes and goes because he cannot score outside of about five feet with any regularity. He just somehow it’s it’s in anyway it’s I mean and then there’s the stuff where he goes to the locker room so much and I’m not going to act like he doesn’t. You know there’s a lot of people that just act like this is not a real thing with him but it is a real thing. And that perception is sometimes reality when if you’re the only guy who is going to the locker room every game. And he does come back a lot. Like I’ll give him credit. I mean he gets hit in the eye all the time and and still comes back into games. I mean he, you know, has been dealing with that ankle thing for years. It seems like the shoulder. Um, so I don’t want to take away that he’s playing through stuff, but there is a thing and I I feel like Mavericks fans, you know, didn’t really get because didn’t get much time with him. But what’s it going to be like when you’re watching these games and it’s the third quarter and you’re down 10 and all of a sudden he’s going back to the locker room for a quarter. I I think that that stuff is going to wear on on lake or on Mavs fans a little bit more than it did on Lakers fans because at least with Lakers fans, hey, they won a ring, right? Winning, you know, and they had still had LeBron. Anthony Davis right now is supposed to be the best player on the Mavericks. Yep. And I’m wondering it just it leaves some things where if he clears out because he might be hurt or something like that, does the team work better? Is it is it what Bill Simmons uh Patrick Ewing theory? Um I I I’m just there’s I don’t see Cooper flag as a three. Uh you don’t. Okay. See, neither do I. And I’ve really not wanted to say this because I don’t feel like arguing with people. Like I think he’s a like his best usage is a roving four in the Draymond Green mold causing chaos and being a connector on offense. Honestly, it’s a little bit like it like if Anthony Davis is your five and Cooper Flag is your That’s what it should be. Makes a lot of sense. But then you’ve got a Lively and Gaffford problem. Um, you know, those guys are both starters. I think Lively for sure is a starter. Yeah. Um, and again, this is where that pivot would just make so much sense if you moved on from Anthony Davis and it was Cooper Flag and Derek Lively as your starting, you know, pretty radive. I feel like that’s a good place to start out. Um, when you got two young guys that can anchor a defense, I mean, if you look, it’s Oklahoma City, you know, it’s kind of what they they’ve been banking on. That’s right. So, you know, I I just if you’re trying to win, I get it. You can’t move Anthony Davis because he’s going to be the best player in your team this year, but you got to do something else around him. That’s right. Well, all right. Any other for AD? Let me ask you, who’s going to create for AD? Is it going to be Cooper flag? Russell did a pretty good job with the Lakers. Yeah, but he pairs best with a downhill guard that they don’t have, right? Really the issue. And AD, I think what they may end up doing is letting AD have a lot of because AD’s a pretty good distributor, ball handler. Yeah, he talks a big game about want It’s like I remember Lakers fans saying, “Well, if he got to play like Giannis, maybe he’d be amazing.” It’s like, well, he might get the opportunity. He doesn’t want to do that skill set. Um he honestly like he he gets banged up too much. I mean he doesn’t like the contact. Yeah. And also he doesn’t have the handle. Team would love to see him dribbling in space. I kind of want to see it. I just kind of want guard him with your smallest guy. If you’re if he’s dribbling in space little What’s he going to do? He’s not going to pull up. He doesn’t want to shoot the three off the dribble for sure. He doesn’t want to shoot this the stand uh the spot up three. So, I just think uh no, like he needs to get his go work the dunker spot, buddy. You’re a center. You’re a center. He is a center. It’s really bad. Are there any other Mavericks off the top of your head that you’re intrigued for for the next season? Klay Thompson. I wonder where he’s going to wind up. I I think he needs to get married to Meg the Stallion and take her last name. Klay the Stallion on jerseys. Just print money. Clay’s having a great summer. He is. And I really wonder, I think when his head’s in the right spot, he becomes a very different player. Yeah. Um I think uh you know, PJ Washington is obviously kind of fascinating because I mean, is he going to be the starting two guard? Like how does this work? Because again, if you’re just thinking we’re going to play our best five guys, they’re all big. They’re all big. Maybe you just say, you know what, Jason kid? Well, so you you got off the Twitter, which is best for your mental health, but I I I shared this clip on repeat recently. There’s a scene in the the opening minutes of Oceans 11 where um uh Brad is is trying to teach them to play poker, all these 20somes in Hollywood, and he starts yelling at one of them where he’s like, “You got three pairs. It’s a fivecar game.” And Toeer Grace stands up and goes, “Hey, look, all reds.” And that’s how I feel about the Mavericks and their forwards where they’re just gonna play like big ball in the most hilarious way possible. And and it’s just it’s gonna cause ha havoc some nights like they’re going to beat the piss out of a team like uh let’s just say Portland and then they’re going to get waxed by the best teams in the league and it’s it’s going to be a riot. I can’t I I kind of can’t wait. I I’m really I see now you’re now you’re speaking my language. See, this is the thing about the show. Mhm. Uh, I am looking forward to seeing this weird stuff that the Mavericks are going to have to do. I’m not out on it. It’s not negative. They are going to have to do some weird stuff. So, to me, that’s so exciting. It is, right? Like, this is basketball. Weird weirdness is hard to come by in the NBA. And I will tell you, there’s no better coach than Jason Kidd. I actually think Jason Kid’s a really good coach. I think he’s proven to be a good coach and a creative one. So, if he’s allowed to do whatever he wants, I think we we might be in for something this season. Um, it’s gonna be something. Well, guys, this has been Kirk Henderson and Dave Defor. You can check out Dave on the AthleticsNBA Daily. Really recommend the show in the subscribe button there. Guys, I have no idea when I’ll be back. Um, maybe I’ll host a live show Friday. I don’t know. I I just I sort of there are days where I wake up and and life is is overwhelming. I just took on a job with Offsides, this new kind of network, and I I’m like apparently going to be making short form video content, which I don’t know how to do. So, this is great. But it’s it’s a great time to be involved in NBA content because the game is weird and it’s fun. It is fun. Yeah, it is fun. I mean, we just had the best playoff run of my life. This is a good time. Amazing. I I I still I’m partial to 2011, but you’ll you’ll you’ll appreciate that. So, okay, everybody be good. We’ll talk soon. Dave, thanks so much. Uh, everybody have a great week and go Mavs.

Dave DuFour of the Athletic joins Kirk to talk about his work, what he’s been up to this summer, what he still likes about basketball, and what he’s thinking about the #DallasMavericks heading into the 2025-26 season.

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