Are the New York Knicks The BIGGEST RIVAL For the Cleveland Cavaliers?! | Battle for the East!

Are the New York Knicks The BIGGEST RIVAL For the Cleveland Cavaliers?! | Battle for the East!

On today’s show, Gavin Shaw from Locked on Nicks stops by as we have a crossover edition of the shows as I kick off this locked whiparound week. We’re going to talk about Cavs, Knicks, a little bit about the rest of the Eastern Conference as this week is going to be about the rest of the teams in the East and how they match up with the Cavs. So, this full episode whiparound edition with Gavin Shaw is next right on today’s edition of Locked on Cavs. [Music] You are Locked on NBA Crossover, part of the Locked On podcast network. Your team every day. What’s up everybody? My name is Danny Cunningham and you might know me from my time covering the Cleveland Cavaliers, places like my Substack, The Inside Shot, Cleveland Magazine, 923 The Fan, and a number of other stops along the way. Okay. And I wanted to say thank you to you for making Locked on Cavs your first listen today and every day. You can find the show anywhere you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else. Make sure to drop us a fivestar rating. Leave us a nice review. And of course, be a friend. Tell a friend about Locked on Calves. Make sure you’re subscribed. Make sure a friend is subscribed as well. And if you’re watching the show on YouTube as we get started here, do us a favor. Hit that thumbs up button for us. Click subscribe. Hit that notification bell so you don’t miss the latest lockdown on Cavs content. A proud part of the Locked On podcast network, your team every day. And today’s episode brought to you by FanDuel. Football season right around the corner. So visit the FanDuel app today and start planning your futures bets right now. Gavin Shaw stops by for the full show today. This is going to be a bit of if you think back during the regular season, I would do these whipound shows every Monday. Whoever the Cavs are playing that week, I would have somebody on to talk about them. Well, this week we’re talking about the rest of the Eastern Conference. this week kind of one big whipound week and we’re starting it off talking about the two best teams in the Eastern Conference. Gavin and I talked for about a half hour, a little bit over about how the Cavs look this year, how the Knicks look this year, how these two teams match up, what we think of our respective squads heading into this season. We did record this last week prior to the schedule coming out. So, obviously the Cavs and Knicks open up against each other. We don’t touch upon that at all, but there’s a lot of good stuff in this podcast. So Gavin and I talked for quite a while. A lot has changed in New York. Obviously Tomido out, Mike Brown in, and we dive into all of it. So without anything else from me, here’s my full conversation with Gavin Shaw. Well, the top two teams in the Eastern Conference this year, I think it’s safe to say everybody believes in some way, shape, or form going to be the Cleveland Cavaliers and the New York Knicks. Knicks, of course, coming off of their first conference finals appearance in a very long time. and the Cavs coming off of a very disappointing postseason. So, bringing in Gavin Shaw to talk about everything that has changed or hasn’t changed with the New York Knicks since the last time we spoke. Gavin, obviously, the Knicks went on a very lengthy postseason run that I think it’s fair to say very many people did not expect getting to the conference finals. Just about everybody, including myself and maybe even you, had picked the Boston Celtics to beat them in the conference semi-finals. That did not happen. and the Knicks got as close as two games away from going to the NBA finals. But what’s the summer been like in New York? Um, I think I think it’s been a successful one. Uh, biggest thing for me was that they they moved on um from Tomo. I was going to talk about this later, but I I was going through my Knicks Cavs notes uh from last season in anticipation of this matchup. And I wrote at some point during game two in in just a in a haze because it was that kind of game where Cleveland won 142 to 105. uh quote, “The Knicks don’t have a substantial talent deficit in this matchup. They do have a substantial coaching deficit.” I don’t know if that’s a bar or not, but I I think it I think it held true. And I think despite the fact that the Knicks made the conference finals, um it was warranted to move on from Tomo, he was consistently over reliant on uh to the point that it was far and away the most played lineup in the NBA. A lineup that was not really good in in 2025 in their starting five. um just failed to make adjustments throughout, was not particularly creative offensively, though again the biggest thing in that was was player deployment and and just the combinations he chose. Something I think Kenny Atinson is very good at and the Knicks could learn from the Cavs a little bit on. Um but that was the single biggest thing. Gershan, Yabusellle and Jordan Clarkson getting them for a combined $7 million I think is just a major win for the New York Knicks. I think those guys are substantial upgrades over what the Knicks had in their seventh and eighth spots a year ago. Both excellent shooters. Clarkson, a really underrated shot creator. Um, I think they’re gonna make the Knicks a lot better and then everyone else is back. Obviously, in a perfect world, maybe they swing a grade for Giannis or not a great, a trade for Giannis, but that was never really realistic. Um, I I think they had a really successful offseason when they fired Tibs. um which I think a lot of people expected to happen if they were not getting by Boston, but obviously they they go on this run in the postseason and they have these magnificent comebacks against the Boston Celtics where I think they were down by 20 in at least two of the wins they had first of the series. Yeah, they were both two games in Boston down by 20 come back have these incredible wins and they find a way to win the series. And yes, I know everyone’s going to bring up Jason Tatum’s Achilles injury, but they were winning. they were about to go up three games to one when that injury happened. Like I think that with or without that injury, the Knicks were probably going to win that series. Um, with that happening, how surprised were you that after getting over that hump, after beating Boston, after getting to the conference finals that the Knicks still decided it was time to move on from Tibs? I was I was maybe a tiny bit surprised. It c it certainly wasn’t a shock. Um, I trust Leon Rose. I trust this front office. They were pretty close to firing Tom Thibido during a bad stretch. I think at the start of the 2022 23 season like like they’ve gotten up to that brink before. Tibs, to his credit, pushed past it. And I like I I’ve tried to emphasize this to people as as much as I think on our podcast and the locked on Nick’s side of this listening knows um Alex and I have probably been been deemed anti-tips like there’s a world where this doesn’t work out for the New York Knicks, right? Because he certainly brought like a level of competency. Um, I think this was one of the best player development staffs in the NBA. We saw just an immeasurable number of guys get significantly better, have career seasons under Tom Thibido. Um, and and he was just by like a stratospheric margin their most successful coach in the last 25 years. So, in that sense, it was a surprise. And yet, I’m I’m very much a process over results kind of guy. And I think there was a recognition perhaps from the players, certainly from Leon Rose in this front office that the process probably superseded the results. And there was a world where they lost to the Detroit Pistons in round one and this wasn’t really much of a decision to be made. Like a bunch of those games were decided by five points or less. Um I think it’s it’s a credit to Jaylen Brunson and and really just this whole roster. The the medal they showed getting out of that series battling uh the Boston Celtics to your point and the ability to come back late in those games. Probably the best third quarter in Knicks history in game four of that series. Uh fighting their way back against the Pacers in in a series where it would have been incredibly easy for them to lay down. And they were again down by 20 points with a chance to go down 3-0 in game three. And some of that is a credit to Tibs. I I think it is a recognition from the front office about what’s real about that run, which this team is talented enough to make the NBA finals. They might be talented enough to win the NBA finals. And with more optimal coaching, um there’s a world where where uh there’s an even better result than an Eastern Conference Finals. So, do you view Mike Brown as more optimal coaching? like do you think that was the correct and a a hire that’s going to make a big enough difference when the post when next postseason arrives because this is not a move let’s be honest it’s not about the regular season in the same way that the Cavaliers when they fire JB staff after the previous season um that move was not about the regular season it was about the postseason I think that this Knicks move firing Tibs and hiring Mike Brown very similar I’m just curious how you view Brown as a postseason coach yeah I I think he certainly wasn’t the most exciting option on the table. The Knicks very famously canvased essentially the entire NBA. Uh I don’t know, okay, maybe a sign of respect. I don’t know if Kenny Atinson was was one of the coaches they at least publicly reached out to. Uh got shut down a whole lot. It seemed pretty well te telegraphed that Jason Kidd was their number one option. He seemingly wanted to go to New York, could not get out of his contract in Dallas, so that didn’t happen. I was I am happy with Mike Brown. Like I give it a solid B for now. and and I’m I’m I’m kind of waiting on what it actually looks like, but from everything I’ve gathered, he is a little bit more willing to be versatile in his approach. Tom Thibido was very much the mindset of like, I know how to play winning basketball, I’ve had a lot of success, I am going to if it’s if it’s a square player in a round hole, god damn it, we’re we’re squeezing it in there. We’re going to make it work. Um, and I think Mike Brown is is a little bit more willing to be adaptable, particularly on the defensive end of the floor. obviously just a couple seasons removed from coaching the Kings to the playoffs for the first time in 16 years that season. They have the best offense in NBA history. Um my biggest question about him is going to be his willingness to make adjustments from a lineup perspective. That that is something I mentioned earlier, but it was a theme all season long for the New York Knicks. Um and unwillingness in particular to play five out and lean into Carl Anthony Town’s greatest strength. Uh Deuce McBride was the one player on the New York Knicks roster that was in all five of their best lineups. And yet Tom Fibido consistently reluctant to rely on him at the end of games even though it allowed teams to put a wing on Carl Anthony Towns and neutered what at the beginning of the season was right up there with the Cavs as one of the better offenses in NBA history. So I’m fascinated to see how Mike Brown approaches the starting lineup. Uh does he stick with what Tom Thibido did and thinks um difference in tactics could actually make that lineup really effective even though it wasn’t. Does he go double big like Tibs was forced to do late in the playoffs or does he lean into shooting and actually go five out? Uh we’re going to see. Um, he did bury Keon Ellis in Sacramento, which is a little bit scary because I think that’s kind of a a fast simile for what happened with Deuce McBride, but overall, I’m pretty confident in him tactically. I think just like Tom Thibido, he’ll be able to handle the the much feared, maligned uh New York media market. Uh, so we’ll see, but I’m I’m kind of cautiously optimistic about Mike Brown. More with Gavin in just a second, but first got to tell you that today’s show is brought to you by FanDuel. And on August 26th, that date is creeping up here, folks. That is officially FanDuel Futures Day. That’s right, a brand new holiday for football fans who live for bold predictions and pre-season hunches. For just 24 hours, FanDuel giving you deals on NFL season predictions. So whether you’re calling your shot for the MVP, eyeing a long shot division winner like the Cleveland Browns, it’d be a pretty long shot to win the AFC North or you’re ready to crown your Super Bowl champ before week one like I am. I think Kansas City wins it this year. Think Casey’s going to be really good. I think Patrick Mahomes has heard a lot of people saying, “Hey, Joe Burrow is better. Lamar Jackson is better. Josh Allen is better.” No, none of those guys are better. Patrick Mahomes is the best and he’s going to win the Super Bowl again this year. That’s what I’ve got before week one. Maybe you feel different. If you do, FanDuel is the place to go. So, visit the FanDuel app today and start planning your futures bets now because August 26th, FanDuel futures day. There’s going to be a ton to do. It’s going to be the place to be. FanDuel’s futures day. Just one day, one day only, but it’s going to be quite a day. So, head on over to the FanDuel app or head to fanduel.com. That is f an due.com today for more. FanDuel play your game. So, one of the things that I’ve been asking in these conversations that I’ve been having with with other people that cover Eastern Conference teams is what is the the ceiling of the team that you cover? But I think that the ceiling of the Knicks is winning the title and they were in the conference finals last year. And I I would imagine that you would agree with that. Um so instead, I’m going to ask you, what’s the floor for the Knicks next year? That’s a that’s a great dark question, Danny. Yeah, we’re getting real dark here in August, man. Yeah. Um, they could lose in the first round of the playoffs, right? We we saw it we saw it last year, right, against against the Detroit Pistons, right? If the Knicks like deal like here’s here’s I think the the underrated part of last season for Knicks fans who were were saying like see like like Tibs Tibs worked his magic. They won 50 games. They they got to the conference finals. The Knicks were shockingly healthy in some ways. Like OG Anobi had far and away the healthiest season of his career, I believe. I’ll double check, I think, since his rookie year. Carl Anthony Towns had I think his healthiest season in the last five years for the New York Knicks. Jaylen Brunson missed 15 games late in the season, but was for the most part, even though it felt like he turned his ankle every 10 minutes, for the most part, was healthy come playoff time. Like these guys, Mikuel Bridges continues to never miss a game. Like like that is not a guarantee year after year. We saw it in Cleveland last year, right? where they were pretty healthy all year. They did everything right in terms of managing minutes and yet they still dealt with just a myriad of injuries throughout the postseason that ultimately contributed to their downfall. So if the Knicks are a little bit less healthy, if Mike Brown is a little bit closer to Tom Fibido in terms of his tactical creativity and lineup usage, then I want to admit um the Knicks could like I don’t know like who’s going to be the seven seed. Like this if the Philadelphia 76ers are injured all year and they’re the seven seed and the Knicks are the two seed and they’re magically healthy, like they absolutely have the talent to beat the Knicks in in a sevengame series if someone gets hurt for the Knicks or the Knicks just have a suboptimal shooting series. Like I I really think I would put Cleveland, Oklahoma City, and maybe Denver like who are the teams like if their star as as long as their best player doesn’t get hurt, they probably just have like enough depth to beat almost any seven or eight seed. But I I think it would be like hubris to some extent to to suggest that the Knicks it’s impossible that they could lose in the first round of the playoffs or it’s it’s impossible they could get upset by the Orlando Magic or the Detroit Pistons in the second round of the playoffs, right? They are an extremely talented team, but I don’t think there is such a margin for error like there is in Oklahoma City, like there was in the past with Golden State that they’re just a lock to make the conference finals. I I do think that’s a fair thing. And I think that to your point, um, and maybe this isn’t something that we want to say out loud, but like I think the Knicks last year in the postseason were actually closer to losing to the Pistons in the first round than they were to losing to Boston in the second round. And I understand that they won both of those series in six games. And I understand that there were some injuries in Boston that that maybe complicated things a little bit aside from just Jason Tatum. Um, but like I looked at that and said, you know, they there’s a world in which the ball bounces a different way one or two times and the Detroit Pistons win that series against the New York Knicks. I think more things would have had to go wrong for the Knicks against the Celtics than would have had to go wrong against the Pistons. Like, I just think that margin was maybe a little bit thinner than we want to admit. Now, ultimately, they won both those series, so who cares? Like, that doesn’t actually matter. But if you do want to get dark and go to that place, like I think that’s kind of the recipe for why. Um, and then as we look at the off seasonason, and we talked a bunch about the coaching change that was made, we haven’t talked a lot about the personnel changes, and this is a Knicks team that’s going to look pretty similar to what the Knicks were last year, but they did add Jordan Clarkson. They did add Yan Yabuselli, as you mentioned. Is there something that the Knicks maybe didn’t do this summer that the that you thought that they should have or or maybe might have? No, I I I don’t think so. I was again like open to the idea that they were going to make one more big move, but I it was why the male Bridges trade was was so maligned in retrospect. Like they kind of spent those cards, right? They traded five first round picks. The one thing they didn’t do was really trade any significant player equity in that trade. So there was still a world where they said, “Hey, like we want to go out and try to get Deon Booker. We want to go throw all of our chips in for Giannis.” It was just like they were never like even even in a world where those guys were available, they were never going to have the top offer for those guys. and and just like the cap implications would would make your brain bleed a little bit. Like it it was it was just not really realistic. The best thing they could have possibly done was find a new coach, a better coach, which I think they did. Um and supplement on the margins, which I absolutely think they did. Like the the single biggest thing the Knicks missed last year given the style that Tom Thibido wanted to play was a secondary shot creator after Jaylen Brunson because that that is just not really Carl Anthony Towns’s game. Julius Randle for like all the criticism he took in New York. Incredibly good at just putting his head down, drawing a crowd in the lane and generating corner threes. Like you saw Male Bridges and OG Anobi fall from like two of the leaders in in corner three-point volume in the NBA just down a bit. Duce McBride’s three-point volume from the corners was down. And I think someone like Jordan Clarkson even even in limited minutes can help boost that a little bit. Having another guy in Gershya Busouselli who can shoot above the break threes and is comfortable attacking a closeout like that’ll help a little bit. They drafted four rookies the year before. Like I I don’t think any of those guys are going to contribute day one, but that is a little bit of extra depth and all guys who look good in summer league for the New York Knicks. Presumably, you get a a little bit more of Mitchell Robinson this year who only came back for the final 20 games or so and wasn’t really at full strength until the playoffs. Like I do think this is a deeper team and if those injuries do come up, they’re a little bit more well insulated to deal with them than they were last year. Well, and I do think that the depth could be something for the Knicks this year that maybe matters a little bit more with Mike Brown. Not to get back to to rehash this, but like the reputation Tibs has is that he’s going to play play six and trust five or play five and trust four at times. And I’m maybe exaggerating just a little bit there, but I do think that Mike Brown, despite the fact that he buried Keon Ellis on the bench in Sacramento, I do think that you will see an extended rotation in December and January and February in New York in a way that you didn’t previously under Tib. So, I do think that that added depth with a different coach actually matters more than that added depth would have meant had they not made the change um going from Tibs to Mike Brown. Yep. Completely completely agree with you. And I I think the single biggest thing is like even more so than the raw minutes is just employing a lot of different lineups. Like I I this stood out to me when I was looking at the Cavs lineup numbers, which we’ll we’ll touch on next segment, but again, the Knicks most used lineup was over 1,800 possessions last year. The Cavs most used lineup I think was 523. I really hope the Knicks are closer to that and like it almost doesn’t matter who you start. It just how many different lineup combinations can you get on the floor and do you have like sub substantial data by the time you get to April, all right, here are our five best lineups and we know we actually know what to rely on instead of like experimenting halfway through the series in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Indiana Pacers and being like, you know what, Andrew Jam’s pretty good. I actually am going to play him 15 minutes a game. Ah, Precious Achua, that was that was weird that I played him so much. He’s actually not that useful. um in the Eastern Conference Finals A and just using the regular season as a time for experimentation because frankly like obviously be nice to be the one seed. It matters so much more that the Knicks know their strengths than they’re the one seed versus the four seed. And I think that’s something Cleveland embraced and were still really successful while embracing it last year. So I have one Eastern Conference question that I want to get to and then we’ll to talk more Cav stuff here. Um, but so much of the conversation, and I think that this is fitting because I am at least of the opinion that the Cavs and the Knicks, some combination. I think the Cavs are probably still going to win a few more regular season games than the Knicks. And I think that FanDuel certainly has it that way. Um, the postseason, a different story, but I think that the Cavs and the Knicks are going to be the top two teams in the Eastern Conference. And there is this notion that the East is wide open and that there are a lot of different teams that can do all these things. And I’m curious how you see that because I sit here and I think, yeah, the Cavs need to prove that they can go out and win multiple playoff rounds and they need to prove that they can get to the finals and the Knicks to some extent need to prove that they can get over that hump, too. But then I look at it and I think there’s a pretty significant drop off. Like maybe if you want to say Orlando can do it, we’ve not seen that group win a single playoff series. Atlanta like went to the conference finals four years ago on one of the flukiest runs ever. Like I don’t see the East as as wide open. I think there are two teams at the top better than everybody else that need to prove they can do it in the playoffs, but I don’t think that translates to being wide open. And I’m just curious where you think where or where you stand on all of that. I I’m in total agreement with you. I think there is a pretty significant meridian after that clear tier one of Cleveland and thanks and and New York. Um Orlando would be is the most interesting team to me. I’m fascinated. I know he’s looked good for for team Germany this summer. Like if Fron Vagner can fix his jumper, I think the touch is there for him. I know just like listening to Magic fans, their their biggest concern at times is him shooting open jumpers versus like uh off the dribble where he’s in more of a rhythm. Like if he jumps from I mean in the playoffs I think he was 17% from three. If he’s more like a 36% three-point shooter on volume, I think that is pretty revoly for them. I think Desmond Bane alone is pretty revvely for them. Obviously having a healthy Jaylen Suggs, a healthy Mo Vodner. Like I really I know some people question the price for Bane. I really like that move and I I I liked how bold they were about going for it because the East is only open in the sense that there is not a Boston Celticsesque power coming into the season. And yes, like and maybe we’ll get into this. I’m curious your perspective on it. There’s a world where you could make the argument that Cleveland is at. They certainly had a regular season befitting of that. But given what Boston had done to the playoff in in the playoffs in 23-24 coming into last season, I just thought that fiveman lineup both offensively and defensively, there was not an obvious weakness there outside of Chris Porzingis’s health, which obviously did end up being an issue. I don’t think there is a single team like that in the East that that is just a beyond reproach. So, in that sense, I think there is an opening and I appreciate that Orlando went for it. And I think from a talent perspective, there isn’t really a huge gap between them and Cleveland and New York. Um I still tend to think that teams need to take their lumps unless they’re just so overwhelmingly talented that ah those lumps kind of go out the window. Or you’re like Oklahoma City and you could have games and you could have moments where you look a little bit young but your defense is so good and you have such a margin for error that it ultimately doesn’t matter. And clearly no no one thinks Orlando is that this year. So given that argument, I I do think it’s Cleveland. I do think it’s New York and I I think the Cavs are in some ways almost like the lesser known entity just because we haven’t really seen like a large sample size of the team they became last season in the playoffs. Like if they are who they were in the regular season, they should maybe be in a tier separate from the New York Knicks, but I I don’t and tell me if I’m wrong on this, I don’t think you can justify doing that just because I mean similar to Orlando, we’ve seen Cleveland win a round twice now. We haven’t seen them put it all together yet. So that that question still lingers, but from a talent cohesiveness, coaching perspective, they are more of a sure thing right now than the Knicks are. And the Knicks are more of a sure thing by I think a significant margin than anyone else in the East after that. Yeah. And I look at what Orlando did and like I have them third in the East right now, but I just don’t know that they have the the backcourt creation. And I’m not I I think that how you feel about this is pretty much how you feel about Jaylen Suggs. And I am not somebody that’s super high on Jayen Suggs as an offensive player. I think is a terrific defender. Um, but if you feel really good about Jaylen Suggs, you probably feel differently about this. I just don’t know that they have enough. I don’t know. They’ve got some really talented offensive players. I don’t know that they have the straw that stirs the drink. And I think it’s really hard to advance deep in the postseason and and be a team that can go on a really deep run without having that straw. I still think that their offense is going to lead something to be desired. They’ll be better, like I would predict, gonna be real bold here and they’ll be a top 20 offense for the first time in forever because the Orlando Magic have not done that in about a decade. Yeah. But I do think that it’s insane how long 2012 or 2011. Zacklo brings it up like once a week, but it’s insane. I think that they will finally break that, but I don’t know that they’re going to be a top 15 offense. And I think that you need to be that to to move forward pretty deep in the playoffs. All right, we’ve talked a lot about the Knicks, a little bit about the rest of the East Ma basically the Orlando Magic. We’re going get into the Cavs next right here on this locked on Cavs Knicks crossover show. All right, let’s uh let’s get into the Cavs a little bit. Um I Danny, I I haven’t got a chance to I I texted a little bit. We haven’t talked in depth like about the feeling in Cleveland coming out of that playoff run and I I imagine it’s it’s of two schools of thought and it’s probably very similar to how the Knicks felt coming off that 23 24 season where they lose to the Pacers in the semi-finals and yet half their team was injured and there was just this lingering feeling of like god damn it if they if they were just even like forget about fully healthy forget about Julius Randall if they just had some of their depth if they had uh I always forget about Bdanovich but Boon Bdanovich if they had a fully healthy OG Anobi who only played two games in that series. They would have beaten Indiana. Maybe maybe maybe they could have challenged the Boston Celtics. And I’m sure there were some lingering feelings with that in Cleveland. And yet there are also some doubts, right? You come off a 64- win season. You have this ridiculously dominant team. And again, for like the third time in four years, not quite able to build off that in the playoffs. Um and and I think we’re like my question center because I I really do still like their depth. um around that big four plus 9.3 in over 1,600 possessions in the regular season. Unquestionably amazing number in the playoffs, minus3 in just 154 possessions. You put a major asteric on that because obviously Darius Garland was out himself. I know Donovan Mitchell was being was playing hurt. I I’m I remember Evan Mowgli was also hurt to some extent um and Jared Allen we can talk about. But I I guess I say all this to say, do you do you still believe in Cleveland’s big four as a championship big four or do you think a move has to be made there? So I don’t view it as a big four and this has been one of the things that I’ve talked about this summer really since that Pacers series. Um I don’t think Jared Allen should be considered a core player. I think he’s a very good player. I think that you know in the right year and we’ve seen him do this. He’s been an all-star before. The right year he can be an all-star center in the Eastern Conference. He’s a really good player. I think a lot of teams would want to have Jared Allen. I’m not sure that Jared Allen is a 16 game player. I’m positive he’s a really good 80 82 game player. If you can have that guy on your roster from October until April, you’re going to be pretty happy because he’s going to do a lot of really good things. But April, May, and June, I just have kind of seen the opposite where he I mean after that series against the Knicks, he had the quote where maybe the lights were a little bit brighter than expected. That seems to make the the rounds every single summer, right? Yes. It’s it’s a a quote that will live on forever and credit to him for making that imprint there. But I think he’s a really good regular season player. And I also look at it and say I think it’s harder to to thrive with two guys that are both, you know, 6′ 11, 7 feet tall, playing similar positions than it is to guards because of how you can kind of not be heliocentric and how you can move the basketball and that you can create so much different for guys that are ball handling type guys as opposed to bigs. And I think that Evan Mobley, we’re going to see him more as a ball handler this year, but no one’s going to confuse him with a point guard by any stretch of the imagination. I think it’s easier to play that style than it is having maybe two bigs and one small guy the way that that some people do want the Cavs to lean into. So, I look at this as the Cavs have a big three. Evan Mobley is not going anywhere. I think that he’s going to be somebody that is going to make multiple first team AllNBAs. I don’t think he’s ever going to win an MVP award, but I think he’s going to have some top five finishes as an MVP um type of guy in his career. He already won defensive player of the year. He was second team all NBA last year. I think Donovan Mitchell is no doubt a top 10 player in basketball and he has been that the entire time he’s been in Cleveland when he’s been healthy. I think it’s fair to have questions about Darius Garland’s health, but if you look at what he did in really until that New York game that right after the all-star break, I believe it was one the Cavs won by like 35 points. Yeah. He got injured in that one and after that he was just not the same player and obviously had the toe injury that he needed surgery on after the postseason was done and will probably miss the start of the regular season because of it. I look at those three guys and say, can you win a championship with those three guys being key contributors? I think the answer is yes. Now, if Jared Allen’s your fourth best player, you’re in a really really good spot. But I also don’t look at him as a a core player. I think he’s a high-end role player and you need those guys, but I don’t think he’s part of the core. I I guess given that answer, what what does that practically change for Cleveland? Does that mean, hey, move off Jared Allen, try and add some wing depth, play Evan Moley as a center? Does that mean you don’t close games with him and you just close games with Moy at the five? or does it just change like shot distribution perception? Like I’m curious the practical impact of that in your mind. So I do think and Kenny Atinson showed during the regular season that he was willing to do this um last year. Um but I think it means you have to be comfortable not closing games with Jared Allen at center. Um like he can’t necessarily be somebody that despite being a one-time all-star and somebody that I think was right on the cusp of being an all-star last year, he can’t be treated the way that a typical all-star would be treated in terms of those closing minutes. It’s like, yeah, you still start him, but I do think that in the deeper into Evan Mobley’s career, we’ve seen Evan play a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more at center every year. And I think the Cavs are a better team when Evan Mobley plays center than they are when he plays power forward. So, I do think and they were willing to do this in the regular season. And we didn’t really see this in the postseason largely because of the injuries. Like Evan Mobley missed a game. Um, DeAndre Hunter missed a game in the playoffs. Darius Garland obviously missed the first two games. like their closing and the Miami Heat series like they won that they didn’t have a closing lineup in that series because they won every game it felt like by 50 points against the Heat in that first round. So, we really didn’t see whether or not he would have been able to do it in the postseason, but he did do it in the regular season. And I think that was something that could have been needed in the postseason. So, I do think it’s handling things like that. But I I think that ultimately and Jarrett signed a contract extension um a little over a year ago at this point and he is on the final year of the original deal he signed with Cleveland which was five years $100 million. It was just $20 million a year did not move. It was flat for all five years. His new contract extension has a raise in it. He’s going to be making $28 million a year from now. So I do think at some point the Cavs are going to have to make a financially motivated move. And Jared Allen, considering Evan Mobley plays very similar spot to him, I think Jared Allen is the guy that should be looked at as the first one to potentially, I’m not saying right now, I’m not saying at the trade deadline this year, but at some point when the Cavs have to break up this core four, Jared Allen’s the guy that I think should go. Yeah, I’m with you. I I think just having a little bit more fluidity, maybe that’s not the right word, but I we we saw it on the Knicks side when they started playing Mitchell Robinson and Carl Anthony Towns together and and it’s not a great comparison because Moy and Allen are just so much more, no pun intended, mobile than than those two. Um I mean, maybe not maybe not Mitch, but certainly Cat defensively and and and Jared Allen is just a far more versatile offensive player than Mitchell Robinson. But I I just think when you play a team like the Indiana Pacers, it is just physically difficult to to keep two guys that tall on the basketball floor. Unless like if it was Moy and Giannis, you could make it work. But they need to both be like 98th percentile athletes or higher for that to click. and and and then offensively and again in the regular season this was an issue because give Kevin Kenny Atinson credit like he implemented just this incredible like ball movement this flow to their offense like where it worked and Jared Allen is smart enough and skilled enough to make that click but again in the playoffs the margins are so thin it is difficult to thrive when you don’t have like I mean ideally five like the Pacers but at least four guys that are incredibly comfortable handling the ball in the perimeter and depending on how Evan Mobley develops maybe he gets so good at that that like It covers that and and you’re fine with Jared Allen out there. But I’m with you. I I think I think Cleveland is scarier with Evan Mobley playing the five, maybe DeAndre Hunter in at the four, I don’t know, the fifth guys, maybe Lonzo Ball, maybe Max Struce. Like I’m curious to see how they structure that. Um, and it it could be as simple as like they continue to really lean into Jared Allen, but what do you what’s your biggest fear right now for for Cleveland next year? That that’s my version of the floor question, I guess. Um, I think it’s health. I I think that this team has so much talent. I I still think that they have a lot of depth. Um like I look at them and they’re going to win a lot of regular season games because they’ve got, you know, a guy in Donovan Mitchell who I still think is maybe even getting better. Like I just I think that this year might be like his apex. Um and then maybe he stops getting better, but he has, you know, he is a much better basketball player now than when the Cavs acquired him a few summers ago. I think Darius Garland is still getting better. I think Evan Mobley is still getting much much better. If those guys are healthy, um I don’t see a team in the East other than the Knicks that can beat them in the playoffs. Um if they’re not healthy, they can have what happened to them last year happen. And that’s not to take anything away from Indiana, but the Cavs were the more talented team on paper. It’s just their guys were not healthy and the Pacers played a style that really picked at all of the weaknesses the Cavs have. Um, I think that what they did this year, they tried to take or this summer, I should say, they tried to take away some of those weaknesses. But if you look at the history of some of their key guys, like Darius Garland, who had that had to have that toe surgery, you know, the year before he broke his jaw and basically it was a lost season for him. The year before that, um, like he made an he he made an all-star game before Donovan Mitchell arrived, but he has dealt with some significant injuries throughout his career. It’s been very rare. I think the series against the Knicks really the only postseason that he’s been healthy for. So that’s an issue. Donovan Mitchell who played through some calf issues very clearly despite the fact that he was doing everything he could to try and will the Cavs to wins against the Pacers. He was not the same guy at the end of that series. The year before he missed the final, I think it was two games against the Boston Celtics in their second round series because of a calf injury. So, he’s had some injury issues. Evan Mobley turning his ankle and missing a game. Like, that just kind of happens. I don’t look at that as some injury question, but these guys have not been able to stay healthy for a postseason run. Um, it’s not like Joel and be Philadelphia 76ers level health issues, but I look at it and say, if this team is healthy in the postseason, it’s hard for me to see anyone other than the Knicks beating them. If they’re not healthy, anything’s on the table, though. Yeah, I’m I’m with you. All right. At least in the East, like if they get to the finals, I’m not saying like they need to not be like the Thunder could beat them, the Rockets could beat them, but like in the Eastern Conference, that’s how I feel. All right, last one for me. Um I I think in the regular coming off the regular season last year because we we we talked a bunch heading into the playoffs throughout the season. Uh credit to you. Love these crossovers. Um obviously Cleveland beat the Knicks four times last year. We referenced game two, I think right off the All-Star break, 142 105 Cleveland. That was that was a low point um on the season for the New York Knicks. That April 2nd game, even though Jaylen Brunson play was also kind of a low point. They lose by 19. Game four, I I I keep correcting myself. Maybe that was the most demoralizing because Cleveland was without Donovan Mitchell. One of Jared I think Evan Mobley didn’t play. I think Jared Allen did. I don’t quite remember. I should have looked ahead of time. That’s on me. Um Knicks still find a way to lose that game. Darius Garland down the stretch. Punched Jaylen Brunson repeatedly. Twoman game with Max Struce. 333. The Knicks somehow find a way to even lose that one. It just felt like Cleveland had New York’s number. And now coming into next year, that’s a race because to your point, Cleveland loses to Indiana. The Knicks prove something by, I think, beating, in my opinion, the best team in the East last year, the Boston Celt or at least the scariest one in the playoffs. Cleveland was Cleveland was better in the regular season. Um, has your I don’t know if this is the right word, but fear, respect for the New York Knicks changed and I I think maybe it it it did based on the fact that you said the Knicks are the one team that could potentially beat them, but do you see that as a toss-up series or when push comes to shove, even with a new coach, even with a little more depth, do you think Cleveland has some decisive advantages there and would clearly be the favorites in a sevengame series between the two teams? I think the Cavs would be the favorites. I don’t think it would be like some decisive favorite. Um like I don’t think that it’s a I think the margin is pretty slim, but I do think that the Cavs would be like if if right now if the Eastern Conference Finals started and both teams are completely healthy, which of course never happens because these guys all play 82 games and then go through two other rounds in the postseason. But I would imagine that FanDuel would make the Cavs the favorites at the start of that series. Now, that doesn’t mean that the Knicks are not capable of winning that series. I do think that the Knicks earned a lot of respect with the postseason run that they had because going into that postseason, I personally counted the Knicks out. I didn’t think they could beat the Boston Celtics. I didn’t think if both teams got to the conference finals, they could beat the Cleveland Cavaliers because in the regular season against the Cavs, the Celtics, and the Oklahoma City Thunder, I think the three teams that really in the regular season were a cut above everybody else, New York went 0 and 10 in those games. And I think that that colored a lot of the reason why I felt the way about the New York Knicks because I saw them go against the best teams in the regular season. And it went poorly for them every single time, whether it was a blowout win like the Cavs had or a come from behind win like the Cavs had at the end of the season. But it felt like we had seen that story. So to see them flip that script against the Boston Celtics and and that’s really where I think they earned a lot of respect. Like I do think from a matchup perspective, Indiana was just a bad fit against the New York Knicks. especially after watching the Pacers up close for those five games. I went into that thinking like I have earned a lot of the Knicks have earned a lot of respect for me, but I’m picking Indiana because I just don’t see how they can keep up with the Pacers for seven games. And that proved to be true. But I do think that they earned a lot of respect from um from I think a lot of Cavs fans and really a lot of fans across the NBA for the way they were able to beat the Boston Celtics. Even if Jason Tatum got hurt, even if there were some other injuries they were dealing with, I think they earned a lot of respect there. Yeah, I I think I would I would have this series pretty close to a toss-up and and to be clear, I think Cleveland is decisively a better regular season team and I I would again pending significant injuries, I I’d be pretty shocked if the Knicks end up winning more regular season games. I do think and this is we’ve sort of been dancing around this the whole conversation. I do think there is a mental fortitude and metal with the Knicks and we’re going to see maybe they lose some of that without Tom Tho that was something he certainly brought to the table. Um, but I think emanating from Jaylen Brunson that um, Cleveland still has to show. I think Donovan Mitchell’s that guy. I’m I’m with you. I I think he can do a lot of the same things as Jaylen and they’re even even though their games are different, they’re they’re very similar in terms of just how spectacularly talented they are. Um, I want to see it from the rest of Cleveland’s roster still. I think Evan Mobley showed you some of that. I think some of the role guys in different moments showed you some of that. I I’m curious to see it play out for Cleveland. And I do think the the depth gap between the two teams has been somewhat mitigated by this offseason, but you know what? Uh we still have to see the games play out a whole bunch of them. Uh Danny Cunningham, thank you so much for coming on. Locked on Nick Knicks. Uh for Knicks fans, uh because there there’s so much we didn’t get into the addition of Lonzo Ball, what types of lineups Cleveland is going to lean into next year, maybe even more on the Jared Allen stuff. Be sure to subscribe to Locked on Cavs, wherever you can find podcasts. Hopefully Cavs fans uh feel the same way. and check us out over on lockdown. Until next time, he’s Danny. I’m Gavin. We’ll talk to you soon on Lock on Cabs and Lock on Nick. [Music]

On this episode of Locked On Cavs, Danny Cunningham (The Inside Shot, Cleveland Magazine, 92.3 The Fan) and Gavin Schall (from Locked On Knicks) analyze the Eastern Conference landscape, focusing on the Cleveland Cavaliers and New York Knicks. They discuss the Knicks’ coaching change from Tom Thibodeau to Mike Brown, exploring potential tactical improvements and lineup flexibility. The conversation shifts to offseason moves, with Schall highlighting Jordan Clarkson as a key addition for New York. Cunningham challenges the notion of Cleveland’s “Big Four,” arguing for a core trio of Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell, and Darius Garland. The hosts debate Eastern Conference competitiveness, positioning the Cavaliers and Knicks at the top. They conclude by examining the potential playoff matchup between these teams, acknowledging the Knicks’ improved standing while giving a slight edge to the Cavaliers.
Check out Danny’s Substack, The Inside Shot: https://theinsideshot.substack.com/
Email the show: LOCavsmailbag@gmail.com

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