Hawks Film Room Ep 52: 2025 NBA Draft Bigs Deep Dive w/ @BeyondTheRk

Hawks Film Room Ep 52: 2025 NBA Draft Bigs Deep Dive w/ @BeyondTheRk

what’s up everyone welcome back to the Hawks Bermude podcast hosted by yours truly David Lee aka Deafly for three we got a special live edition of the draft coverage I’ve been doing over the last couple days um when we did our survey for Hawks fans the most desired position were the big men and you know that makes sense for a Hawks team that necessarily hasn’t had a sevenfooter since the K Matumbbo it’s been a position of contention uh with Clint Capella’s relative decline and I figured it was a great time to go into a deep dive um about the prospects in this draft the guys that make sense for the Hawks um and I thought who better than my guy Ryan he he just released some really interesting data visualizations that can help you really conceptualize what these guys look like in the NBA role and Ryan I’m really happy you took the time to be on and yeah how you doing today man hey appreciate it David excited to be here exciting time for basketball middle of the NBA finals NBA draft around the corner i mean great time to be a basketball fan and yeah I mean the the Hawks I I love what the Hawks have been up to the last you know year or so just on this rebuild on the fly around Trey so I’m I’m excited to see where they go next yeah for sure i think this is like the best time of the year you know like you got the draft you got NBA Finals and we’re less than a week away from the draft so definitely time to be thinking about some of those guys um so I wanted to start off with uh one of the visualizations you did and it was looking at I believe it was the best scorers in the draft and um or scoring creators and I was I was really interested to see that that Ryan Caulkiner ranked very highly in that and he’s not someone that like you would initially think of someone who’s like a really effective scoreer um so like and you know it’s not the same volume or like the the overall like you know like self-creation but what did you think about his placement on this on this sort of crap yeah so this is um some Cerebro Sports data uh where they track you know basketball players going back to high school they have almost every event in the world on their site um so I was comparing NCAA prospects that are in the draft so this is not including the international prospects to be clear but so this is not necessarily a projection tool but it’s it’s somewhere between like a summary tool and just a quick more so a comparable tool it’s a way to instead of comparing points per game that might have different minutes and usage and touches this tries to put it all on one scale with a scoring rating um and I like to think of scoring creators as prospects who could be potential offensive engines guys that can score guys that can create shots for their team the decision makers that can be like the primary options for an offense you your team has no problem handing them the ball and saying “Go make a hundred decisions a game and we’re going to have a pretty good result based on those decisions.” And you normally you also obviously need a player capable of both the feel the decision-making feel of those decisions but also executing them by scoring drawing fouls at the rim or maybe driving and kicking or at least creating for their team and that to me is like the ultimate offensive engine and really what I target in the graph or in the in the draft pretty highly like at the very top is the allNBA legends the guy the WMBB’s the flags the you know KDs Zions obviously generational guys but after that I I think I want the offensive engine more than anything else so even more than maybe an all-star that just scores really well or maybe an alldefender that is a lock down defender i want those guys too probably right next but I’m I want that engine so I I try to look for guys that can do both at the end of the day and um for this one with with Cal Rener um so he rates the highest in a lot of categories by cerebro he he was one of the most efficient um basketball players in college basketball last year um both in and we’ll talk about his defensive side too but let’s like he he’s at the top of a lot of charts and it’s he he’s just very efficient tenur experienced smart basketball player so he is the most efficient scorer among the NCAA group um of all of these players charted but not necessarily the best passer to me the since he is so highly rated in scoring but lower in passing I would think of him more as a play finisher and he he he will probably be maximized in a play finisher role where he is set up to score not create and you know talk about a nice fit whether it’s the Magic or the Hawks but with Atlanta and Trey Young you can’t have enough of those guys it’s it’s really one of the best like pairing fits in the draft if you’re just looking for a a bankable big that brings a little post up traditional postup defense but really he’s a shot blocker who doesn’t foul he he has a potential catch and shoot three-point jumper and he can score efficiently at the rim in the post bring a little versatility down there and stretch the floor so you have a potential shot blocker rim anchor who can pick and pop with Trey long term maybe more of a a big brute compared to Ona Okang Okang Wu a little more uh versatility little complimentary option there so um definitely an intriguing option for Atlanta and just uh to round out the chart the other the X-axis is passing it’s it’s floor general skills so Ryan Nemhard Calman’s former teammate once upon a time at Kraton nemhard ranks the highest in passing among this group of draft prospects and so guys at the top right would be the scoring creator prospects that we’re kind of targeting if if that’s what we’re looking for in the draft the Cam Jo Cam Jones who is like one of the best in the the country at assist to turnover ratio that’s why he’s so high on the the floor general skills rating he’s also one of the best most versatile scorers so you have a a natural like scoring connector type there with the potential of maybe he can also run some offense for us too so guys like like in the top if you just kind of circle does my mouse show so if you just kind of look at the top like six or seven here names you’re looking at Dylan Harper arguably the best scoring creator prospect in the draft cooper flag the best prospect in the draft on both sides of the floor walter Clayton one of the best shooters and scoring gravity types in the draft who’s also a point guard javon Small one of the most complete guards in the in the draft three-point shooter can run pick and roll efficiently defend and Nick Clifford another ver super versatile scorer who’s also showed good passing feel and that’s a guy that I think like that’s an example Nick Clifford here of someone that could kind of pop out on a chart like this where it’s like you might think of him as a versatile scoreer but oh he’s actually top 10 in field too so that that connector type feel off of a store it it just reassures you that you’re not um kind of walking into like a tunnel vision bucket getter who doesn’t play with the team who doesn’t know when to read and react and and kick out of a double and Trey Johnson’s another one kenipple is another one up here that you know fears Wolf Edge McNeely Kasparis kind of round out this group of guys even Colin Murray Mora on the playing side but you know the these are at the top of the charts in the offensive side of the NCAA prospects in the draft hm and so I’m curious because for me personally I have like common mileatch as the best role or cut big in the pro in the prospect in this class but right behind him at least in terms of that particular archetype I’d have cockrunner and so my particular opinion is I believe more into what I saw from allow pre Duke right like some of the some of the tape in the Olympics some of the tape in the BL league um with his mobility and the shooting such from the free throw line but I don’t believe in it so much that I would give up draft capital in the Hawks sort of case to move up to get him and as well as effective as he was as a scorer right we’re talking about someone who shot 84% at the rim he was the best roll cup big in the class per per like per points per possession but then you see where Ryan Kulkbrer ranks on that same sort of metric whether it’s the scoring but then also the defense and so it’s like I think the the big the perceived gap between K Brener and Malawash if you look at consensus is mainly due to the fact that K Bren is so much older and you know some of the some of the drawbacks that come with taking an older prospect but I don’t think you can dismiss the production by any means and so I’m curious if you share that same viewpoint where it’s like these are guys that are in somewhat of the same mold k Brener is 100% more realized you know he may have less upside but I don’t think that’s enough for me to say okay I’d rather move up package two picks to go get Malawash as opposed to you know possibly having the opportunity to take K Brener at 22 um and that’s not just based off the numbers but I mean he’s a he’s a two-time defensive player of the year in the Big 10 put a lid on the rim and the the graphic you showed with the blue background you can see where his defense graded out as well so I’m curious on like your your understanding or your opinion on like that gap between those two guys and then just sort of like how that may translate for Atlanta because I feel like for me personally I would love Malawatch he makes so much sense but at the same time am I worth giving up capital am I am I really willing to do that when you have these other options at 22 or 13 yeah that’s that’s a great question i I have them about 10 spots give or take different on my overall big board and on my magic big board i actually really like the Calrunner fit so much that he’s up to 16th on the Magic draft guide that I um dropped the other day and Kaman Maluak is is ninth so they are relatively close even though I do have Kaman one tier above so you know if if you’re in love with the talent that’s that’s worth a trade up of you know a pick to move up 10 slots if you love the talent uh for one reason or another i I do think he he could be something of a defensive anchor and a really high-end rim roller you mentioned the play finishing the the most efficient at the rim finisher kaman Mauok was this last year more efficient than I believe any college prospect ever or at least in a very long time at the rim and um I pulled up that blue graph to outline so I probably could have labeled this slightly better let’s let’s say it’s it’s defenders versus at the rim and at the rim actually combines a few of these things it tries to find the best big man it it combines defense and offense at the rim so this puts them on something of a comparable scale where Kaman is down here Cal Runner is up here and for at the rim rating you’re looking at Cal Runner is first in both but Kaman is rated uh fourth among all NCAA players at the rim via Cerebro in the draft uh which means that this stat accounts for things like two-point percentage and rebounds blocks and fouls whereas DSI doesn’t count two-point percentage but it does count steals so both of them account for blocks rebounds and fouls while DSI kind of focuses more on like the steals to foul ratio and at the rim kind of factors in more of a two-point percentage to f to try to target the best big men but I kind of thought putting them on one scale and then the bigger circle is bigger overall impact CRAM um kind of just kind of shows a a landscape of defensive impact versus at the rim impact versus overall impact and you know um Calrunner is rated super highly now we should say that this is their ratings from their college production it’s not necessarily a projection of how it’s going to look at the next level but I do think like dominating your peers to that degree is is worth mentioning and worth evaluating and and it’s a key factor in the decision and at the very least like you if you’re trying to find things that translate to the next level like Kriner is is checking off a lot of boxes from the the blocks and steals to foul ratio from the two-point percentage from the catch and shoot three-point possibilities the rebounding just just doing a lot of big man things well um that that makes him really a complete big even though he’s he’s a little old school too he’s not like killing you with mobility and fadeaway jumpers or or some some modern basketball but it it does feel fill a a traditional big man role that and at the end of the day if he actually develops the three-point shot a D and three big is a lot more rare to find than people realize and that I think is what ultimately keeps his stock rising in the draft like this yeah yeah and to everyone who’s watching live if you have any questions or want us to talk about a particular prospect we’ll be more than happy to accommodate we’ll basically be running through uh most of the bigs in the Hawks range as well as maybe some some second round guys that I think could be there um I I agree on all facets with Ryan i think what’s interesting about him versus Malawas though too when you look at their frames right like Common is much more of a he’s lighter on his feet i think that he has better side to side mobility um but where Ryan is I think leagues ahead is in terms of drop coverage using his size the positioning vertical sort of defense and it really comes down to like what type of scheme that I think your team will be running but also how much you believe in your player developmental staff and so from the Hawks perspective it’s like can we take this very very toolsy guy and make him a more polished or thorough defender versus like cockburn is is almost closely close to being a finished product um I think those two guys would probably be like I know you mentioned you have them about 10 spots apart i have them about 16 to 15 but the the tears do get a little flat after the first couple two or three um and it’s interesting too because I think that the Hawks and the Magic if those who don’t know Ryan’s a m a Magic fan we’re we’re in very different sort of um I guess ways to evaluate prospects but in terms of also like just the way our teams are constructed I think that the Hawks are trying to get somewhat similar to you guys in terms of putting length and versatility um around Trey Young but of course when you have Trey you have someone who’s going to be intrinsically you know a defensive liability you have to cover for him so you need mobility that I think almost more than you need just sheer size and I’m I’m going to share something um that I was reading um so this is basically it was a very good draft piece if everyone has if no one has if anyone has not read it yet by Nick Nick Osa um and he was talking about effective height and so the graph that you’re looking at is essentially the the average wingspan per NBA player’s height so the average NBA player has a wingspan that’s about four inches longer four inches and a quarter longer than their height but you want to be able to identify players who have outlier wingspans relative to their height so the guy that we I want to talk about next is Thomas Sorber he’s listed at 6’9 but he has a 76 wingspan that’s eight and eight and a quarter three/4ers inches longer than his than his height so it gives him an effective height of 71 cnb also has a plus wingspan so he’s 6’6 but he has an effective height of 69 coward is 6’5 but he has an effective height of 610 because he has a plus 9 wingspan and on and on so like those four guys I think are all emblematic of where I feel like the NBA is going like OKC has a bunch of guys who have plus wingspans which means they can cover more ground more effectively and they can play up without giving up size because they have quicker foot speed and they’re more versatile than most of the guys that defend and so speaking of those guys but particularly Sorber um like where do you what are your thoughts on him in general like how do you think he stacks up statistically because I mean looking at this particular chart um you like he has an unbelievable wingspan and height differential but he’s also I thought he was very good at being disciplined and and I’d love to hear your thoughts on this graph as well yeah I mean you you nailed it sorber is the one that I mean Calrunner again first of all like just laps running laps around the field with stocks per foul which is steals and blocks per foul similar type of idea to the other defensive ratings we just looked at but same with Sorber and to what you’re saying about Sorber this guy’s an absolute tank like like imagine being the heaviest player in the in the draft uh roughly 260 lbs yeah you’re you’re 7 feet tall and then your arms reach an extra 9 in wide so he’s seven 79 wingspan so that’s where you see he’s he’s top three in the ratio of plus minus wingspan to height um Cedric Coward Rashir Fleming are just a smidge above at a full 9 ft and Sorber is about 8.8 I believe and then he’s also top two in that discipline that you mentioned stocks and blocks without or steals and blocks without fouling so um being that that size that discipline that smart that cerebral defensive field those instincts it really screams like a a classic defensive anchor prospect and he has really great playmaking passing skills so you get you you have a defined role offensively as a playmaking hub and a defender so definitely an interesting fit with Atlanta as we’re talking it out one name that that jumps out you you mentioned Colin Murray Boils that’s a guy that the the catch and shoe jumper is not there but man maybe he could be like your that that defensive anchor that pushes the pace that that could be like a secondary playmaker short roll playmaker like not to say the Draymond to Trey Steph but just something of of a role where he he can just be that defensive ace big big playmaker and there’s a few other names here but you you have some tape for us yeah yeah so I wanted to share this from Matt Powers but he put together some clips of Thomas Sorbber’s defensive ability and you mentioned that he’s he’s the heaviest player in the class but he’s like he’s not cementfooted by any means like he’s definitely slower footed than some guys like CMBB or you know of course but I thought that when he was asked to guard in space he he was able to do it pretty admirably like this rep right here you’ll see how he’s um about maybe the next one but like of course you see the reach at the rim right and it’s it’s such an asset to and like he moves way better than you would expect from someone who’s 260 and I it’s not something that I feel like I’d want him at the level or switching consistently but if he learns to use his length to eat up space more often in on the perimeter and not just around the rim then I think you’ve got a case for like an alldefensive type of player and that’s why I ended up so high on him because I feel like you know when you add in the passing which I’ll also show in a minute as well then you have someone who’s going to be multifaceted defensively but also provides that like residual passing uh value you know as from the top of the key or even like a short role decision- making but I want to bring up this comment uh Dirty Bird said “Do you believe it would be more beneficial on the Hawks current current timeline to try to acquire someone like Gaffford in a trade with 13th?” And he’s saying “I’m definitely a mile watch guy but he’s definitely a while away.” And I think he is my watch will probably be too like I think a lot of people have drawn like Derek Lively comparisons i don’t think he’s that polished yet um in the short role or like defensively positionally but I think like my hesitancy with giving up a real first at 13th for Gaffford is like you don’t really see guys who are playing traditional you don’t see teams who are playing like limited offensive bigs see a lot of success and as much as Gaffford is a great play finisher I wonder if you’re giving up that much capital and he isn’t going to be the starting big is that an effective use of assets when it’s like you could instead take a guy like a Sorber or a CNB or a Caulk Brener or even a Yang or you know like there’s just so many other options if I was going to try to acquire Gaffford I would try to do 22 and if not well I would start with Segus to be honest because the other thing is Dallas needs a shed salary so they would we the Hawks have a trade extension trade uh trade exception and so they could take in Daniel Gaffford’s salary and then basically absorb him without giving Dallas back salary and they they kind of need some help with that and they also have a bit of a a log jam with some of their centers and their forwards so I would try my best to get away with seconds at most I give up 22 do you value Gaffford in that type of play style enough to like not take someone like a caller who can approximate that or or do you or what do you think do you think he’s worth that yeah that it’s an interesting trade idea i I think I I like Gaffford a lot and I think he is worth in general a first round pick what I was thinking was it remind he he’s he’s the kind of target that like I would think like the Mavs were looking for two years ago around Luca where they ended up going in a different direction where but but that’s where they think you know we’re we’re one or two pieces away here where we’re going to ship off a first round pick where that we expect to be in the 20s for a proven starter proven rotation player to join this that we know fills a need and that to me like I could see like if you think your team is ready to contend that makes a little more sense like maybe the Lakers who who really need that big man if they had this late first that makes a lot of sense to me it if you think Atlanta is that guy away to kind of jump back into the playoffs I understand it but I do think at 13 you’re still in the lottery i’d probably still lean towards wanting to draft the potential talent that there there’s a good amount of names that could be better than Yafford in in three years four years that that have that potential and to to be a a starter but you know it really depends on where you’re at in the rebuild i think because of what the Hawks did last year they’re a little bit a little bit farther away from from that step so they’d probably rather keep the talent but and and to your point you can get a Cal Runner at 22 possibly as well who who who relatively could play a little sooner maybe than Maluak but um I I’d probably uh stick with staying in the lottery look for a lottery talent at 13 I think agreed and then so I want Sorry go ahead yeah uh let’s let’s see your your sort of playmaking clips too because I had one other name I want to throw at you noah Asenu is a guy that I think could be available that kind of fits you know if he falls to like 13 i I think he could really fit as like an upside play as like you know maybe that’s a Pascal Seakum type next to Trey down the road where you get this like defensive play finisher with with a transition killer or or even better so that’s that’s another name that I I thought and also Asa Newell is someone I thought maybe even at 22 that might still be there um where he’s he’s kind of a complete forward for the front court just to to fill out the depth with a pro that has few holes in his game he’s he seems like he could be a really nice kind of all-around fit with Trey because he can play some four and five he can guard some four and five he can hit the open three he can rim roll and bring a little counter post move so that’s another name to watch I think for Hawk fans so uh I want to go ahead and show the the Sorber stuff before I I hit you with my personal uh new takes because I think I I’m probably a little bit lower on him than you are but um this is like a full reel of just some of the stuff that Sorber can do offensively um I love how strong he is i think he shot 64% at the rim in the half court um took about 60% of his shots at the rim as well and this is oh this is the play I’m talking about you see his feet his mobility at his size um and his weight like and it’s he just covers so much ground with the wingspan that you know when you’re able to be mobile as well like he could be I could see him being a Chico defensively and because he’s so strong and that’s the one of the passing flashes right there like he’s falling out of bounds he’s able to tip it uh to his to his teammate he was able to run through some cross screens and finish around and through contact u I think I could really see him as a strong um I guess like back door passer or operating out of delay i don’t think he’s going to be like a offensive hub but I think he can make like those tertiary reads the jumper I think is is is smooth for his size but I don’t really feel conf like really confident in projecting it i think it’s you know it’d be a nice to have not necessarily something I think will happen necessarily but um yeah he’s like I’m absolutely in love with him as a prospect i think I have him fifth or sixth um and the other thing is too like it could it could be tough because he didn’t necessarily play well against the greatest comp um but there wasn’t a lot of help for him on this team especially like in terms of setting him up for plays and that’s why he had to carry such a high offensive and defensive load so I think he’s one of those guys that’s going to scale down really effectively in the NBA depending on situation now when we talk ASA I am personally a little bit lower on him and I think my biggest concern with him is I don’t know if he’s a four or five and I think like there there’s differences between like being a tweener like I think Colin Murray Boils because of his defensive playmaking his disruption his wingspan I could see him moonlighting as a small ball five or playing you know the four where my concerns with Asa is I don’t know if he’s ever going to shoot it incredibly well and because of that it it just and also my same concerns with like his his um his handle it’s like if he isn’t going to be I don’t think he could be a small ball five and then if he’s going to play the forward will he really be able to put the ball on the floor can he guard in space and it it really starts with like the shooting for me too like if if we were talking about someone who was who had a better track record as a shooter um I think I could get behind it like his high school numbers not a lot of volume until 2023 he shot 27% for his entire high school career he shot about 29.2% u and then NCAA he took he shot 29% but he did shoot better at the free throw line in college and the other thing that kind of jumps out to me too when I think about Asa his it’s interesting but like you know he played in the context where he was always playing next to a big man like Sanu Surreal and Surreal is like a real at least in my opinion like a real um NBA size guy even if he isn’t an NBA quality like you know an immediately like NBA quality guy and when you look at Ace’s numbers or the team’s numbers in general like when he wasn’t playing with Surreal they just weren’t nearly as good and it makes me a little bit concerned because I don’t think the Hawks have that same sort of like ability to play him with the big in the NBA context just because I don’t know how his handle will look i don’t know how the spacing will look so me personally I would not really want them to take Asa and I think 13 would definitely be too rich which is what uh what Saui said and I think if he is just a four then I think you get into like Zeke Naggi territory or you get into like a John Collins territory where you’re a tweener but like you’re not a modern enough tweener to make it work it seems to me like you’re a little bit higher on him though like like what’s what’s the biggest selling point because I feel like I’m kind of out on him maybe I just caught you know games where I didn’t necessar he’s also like not my favorite type of archetype so I I kind of need you to help me get there honestly sure yeah i I can give you a little asanual sales pitch you and you hit on a lot of the concerns there i I do believe a little bit more in the shooting i think it picked up as the season went on in Georgia i think uh that that senior season at at Mount Verde was to me a little closer to maybe a role he might actually see at the next level and same with Liam McNeely in that role more so than the roles they had in college where they were probably the best player on their team and got kind of a little more usage than you might expect but uh for Asa there’s a couple things that stand out in high school his defensive activity his length his mobility was just insane like it was overwhelming between him and Cooper Flag and Derek Queen behind him as you can imagine that much talent but like that’s what stood out getting to see him like live in high school multiple times it was just that that frenetic those arms never stop moving like very cerebral type of talent defensively to get his arms and and create deflections with active hands and digs and stuff like that and shot blocks and and and all of that so that’s what stood out at the high school level and um what what I think his special skill is would be his offensive rebounding his his pinpoint his vertical leap to get that like that top point that he can get to between his height and his jump he he gets very high on the ball to the point where he’s one of the best offensive rebounders in college so that’s kind of his special skill to me those are the two two big things but the all-around game is more of a complete role player type of thing i I could see some sort of cross between like a what we’re seeing from like Kel Wear perhaps like in that allaround tweenerness in Miami where we’re not ex doesn’t have a clear position but he’s clearly got some skills and length for his size um and maybe filling I’ve always thought Asa would be best in something of an Aaron Gordon role not that he’s Aaron Gordon but in that role where he gets to play next to a Jokic a Trey Young a Luca a scoring creator where his job is to play defense run the floor rebound hit the open three do role player things really well and I think that’s where Asa thrives and that that’s some of its parts that that lack of hole in his game even though he he’s he’s not like the the best creator passer he doesn’t have a wild handle i think both are you know capable enough to be in a team system even if they are things he has to still develop like he’s not a perfect player but you know not very few players are and I think the things that he’s good at I believe will translate to the next level re offensive rebounding defensive versatility and that three-point shot is there’s enough there for me to be a believer but you know you just never know until we kind of see the actual development of how it how it turns out but you know without the three-point shot his role is more limited someone like Aaron Gordon has found impact without that three-point shot until like year 10 is where he finally got good efficiency this past season so like it’s possible but like you really need a defined role that thrives like if if a team drafts that’s why I like him in Atlanta because if a team drafts him to be the guy I don’t know if it’s the fans are might be a little disappointed but if if teams just are looking for a good basketball player to fill out the rotation brings a little two-way impact some versatility to the front court I think he’s a fine option i have I do have him a little higher in the draft probably the most um I got him about eighth on both of my boards but you know I I totally understand that he there’s there’s a lot of kind of D and three play finishers in this draft that could all be in the similar range like I I was thinking as we were talking like some other names like Cedric Coward could be there for you guys it’s kind of a another big lengthy wing you could see on the wing carter Bryant maybe like a complete wing that can kind of help complete now or compete now next to Trey may maybe a Jace uh Richardson as well like another in that idea of a complete guard maybe like a six-man type for your three guard rotation behind Trey and and Dyson could be fun i was uh just trying to play around with uh different different ideas of who my favorites is but you know Noah Noah sent you keeps coming back in my head as as maybe my my favorite pick as an upside play for you guys where like the floor is a transition menace who’s a a plus defender versatility in the front court that side and there’s still a little upside of of some star potential down the line either on the all defensive side or in the you know half court play finishing side if he really like really takes off because he has an impressive development curve is what you know his biggest fans will will tell you about yeah I don’t know if he’ll be available there I but it’s like it’s hard I’m not one of these bigs might though one of these bigs might like there there will at least be one of sorber CNB Sangu and we haven’t mentioned uh Queen what do you think of Queen in this fit because it’s it’s a lot of offense so I think it’s it I I worry about Queen because I just don’t think he’s a five and I buy his handle and his driving ability more than I do Asa like I think Queen could pretty feasibly like I saw some stats on it actually but I think they had him like comped to like Julius Randall um a couple other guys and like his drive points for possession is was heads and shoulders above everyone else like we’re talking about guys like I’ll pull it up right now but like um yeah you got like Ben Simmons Paulo Zion that was a great stat yeah it’s a great stat and it it also puts into context because when I originally saw his first like his drives point per possession I was a little underwhelmed you know his ISO numbers but you have to contextualize it with like the types of guys that he’s similar to and then also like his position so like for for his position whether it’s four or five he is an outlier driver and I think for the Hawks purposes you need connectivity but you also need someone who’s actually going to drive the ball and capitalize on those advantages or create those advantages for themselves and that’s why Asa I’ve soured a little bit on him because I don’t see him being able to be flexible in that sort of way and also I’m lower on his ability to create for himself and like play finishers if I was going to take a play finisher personally I would take Rashir Fleming because I sort of buy the shot more even though this is his first season really shooting it and he also didn’t shoot off the dribble once but I think that in those particular types of guys I would bet on the plus wingspan some of the that the above the rim athleticism that’s very similar to Asa i will say I liked seeing Asa Newell’s athleticism in the U19 uh games where he was playing with Trey Johnson um I thought that he popped there more than he ever did for Georgia and and I know that UJ also didn’t have the best guard situation so I’m trying to give guys like that that I’m a little bit more sour on looking at them in different context like I can by no means do I think he’d be a bad fit i just wonder if the Hawks really need a pure play finisher as opposed to like guys with some creation upside and with that being said it’s hard to get that at 13 like you’re gonna get a flawed self-creator but I think at least someone who has a path to creating their own offense is pretty necessary for Atlanta because I mean even to the extent that like Jaylen Johnson had a 2010 and five season and he still to a large respect was not creating his own offense and then Dyson Daniels you know he’s trying to grow in that area but he hasn’t shown that in a consistent level either and the reason didn’t do it in his year as well and I think that’s where like I I want us to try and get someone at least that can create that offense and that’s why I think Queen is intriguing for a lot of Hawks fans i am just exceedingly concerned about the defense like I think his offense his ability to put the ball on the floor will translate i just don’t know if we have the defensive situation to make it tenable i know that you guys do right i’d be like you know if he fell all the way there by all means I’d be like Orlando should take him but you know from from your perspective as an outsider like would you be do you think he’s special enough to transcend the defensive concerns i think that’s really the ultimate question i don’t think he’ll ever be like a dominant defender i know his hands are good he can move his feet but he’s you know the motor’s a little inconsistent and he’s not much of a presence at the rim and another guy who played a lot with Julian Reese who was the true big do you think he’s transcended enough offensively like you’d be able to say okay he’ll be able to supersede the defensive concerns i think that’s the question right is if if you believe in that potential you know ceiling to be a true star because there’s there’s a chance he’s he’s a not D not three big which is not necessarily a role anyone can fill but like you the the ones that can are the stars and it’s stars and it’s also play finishing bigs but like you know the the Zion comp is the one that has popped out not not I shouldn’t say comp but more so just the statist statistical similarities between Zion and and him and and and just bigs that size where he he is he has graceful footwork but he’s a tank getting downhill no one can stop him no one’s getting in front of him he he he draws fouls no one wants to take the charge and he gets to the rim and he has really impressive vision for his size so like offensively I really like the fit between Trey and Derek Queen like that short roll playmaking pick and roll that side of things could be really impressive you you have two highlevel scoring options two highle foul drawers who who pass the ball he’s he’s not really bringing that catch and shoot gravity maybe he brings more of like a vertical play finishing gravity but even then he’s he’s still a little better with the ball in his hands so it’s almost best in the short role as a playmaker either he drives or kicks from there um so he’s definitely I he’s definitely I think he’s definitely worth a look in this range for this very reason like if if I think his potential especially at that draft slot outweighs the fit of just about everyone else in the draft at 13 i ha I have him ranked right about 12th and I the I don’t love the fit with Paulo so a little lower in Orlando 13th um but yeah uh if he’s there that that that’s a big slip but he I I really like that fit like I think Atlanta being here has the option to get a a a big name that can help the front court i I know I thought also I thought of VJ Edgecom and Ace Bailey those could be fun names in the lottery i don’t think either one’s going to be there but maybe if you trade up just a little maybe that’d be interesting but the two more guys that bring a little upside on the ball but but could could really thrive as like defenders and three-point shooters and the active rebounder that Ace brings and the active defense that VJ brings like you you could see that kind of sliding right into what Atlanta has now and then building maybe on top of with uh on top with some upside and the only other names in this you mentioned Rashir Fleming um you know Kasparis could maybe bring like a little Bogdan role that he used to have down there in Atlanta as like a six-man point forward type like when Trey’s on the bench the the catch and shoot isn’t great there for Kasparis so that when they’re both on the court together would be a little interesting um and Noah Penda really active big man international who who’s another like play finisher type that could just slide right into the this rotation bring plus defense versatile defense high energy player connective playmaking um he’s a guy that you know could slide right in especially and and really good value if if he’s there at at say 23 um more so than than earlier but uh but Queen yeah I think of of all these bigs I I keep coming back to Noah Senu for the two reasons we’ve said of like he he kind of checks both boxes he he brings the play finishing now and he has a little bit of this on ball upside the the driving upside that that you mentioned where you could really see like a a special two-way talent there that that doesn’t really sacrifice impact on either end of the floor so just between the the play finishing and the upside I think he’s my favorite big of of all the names we’ve mentioned for Atlanta but I really I mean Atlanta being in this position to be able to land any of these guys is pretty great for for where they’re at in the rebuild cuz I think they’re already on that you know upward trajectory with Trey and Dyson and what they did last year and all the young guys so you know the more the mer like to me they’re at the point where it’s just flank Trey with as much defense as you can and make sure they can all hit the three dribble pass and shoot kind of like ro the role player ne necessities around him and if you can get you know take a swing on some upside someone that can do that and has upside to be kind of a second or third option that’s probably what this team needs most around around Trey at this point is just you know other other guys to carry some slack 100% and I think that That’s ideally where at least this upcoming season you use the TP to try to bring in some creation but you have guys in the pipeline that could potentially become those creators and I like those names you threw out like Noah Penda and and I want to bring this this sort of chart up just to give you all an idea of like what what self-creation looks like for bigs because like outside of Colin Murray Boils there you’re either going to be a postup player or you’re going to be someone who can roll to the basket and cut or you’re gonna have to be someone who’s good off the dribble and Queen was by far the best driver by far the most prolific off the dribble shooter even though he didn’t necessarily convert highly but then you got guys who are better on the post ups so you got guys like Ryan Cochrrener or Asa Newell they were better on post ups right now and then you got guys who are better on the pick and roll like we mentioned that Malawatch was one of the best pick and roll men of all time in D1 college basketball history he scored 1.7 points per 100 per per possession on those role opportunities and so I think it also comes down to like what type of style of basketball do the Hawks want to commit to like under Quinn Snider it’s been a lot more movement heavy a lot more egalitarian you know like not as much trade ball but you still do need like that that core um offensive action like okay we need a bucket can come in and set a screen can he can he use this role gravity to open up guys on the corner and I think it it’s interesting to when I saw these numbers because for example another guy like there are guys on here who are more offensively tilted like Maxine right now or Danny Wolf and those guys aren’t necessarily as good as role men and so that’s that’s what’s interesting too like even though these are better offensive players than someone like a mile watch or more versatile they’re not necessarily good at the traditional big man things and even right now who I initially thought would be like a really dynamic pick and pop threat his numbers shooting off the he shot spider threes at 44% and he was about 31% on pick and pop and so it’s like for someone who has such a great pump fake and a closeout driving ability he has to be able to turn his three-point shooting ability into a more dynamic way to get to his shots as opposed to just standing statically in the corner because you need him to use his screen setting ability so I’m curious on like you know we talked about a lot of the defensively tilted guys and I do think that’s where the Hawks will look first we talked about Queen when it comes down to offense like I know that you have Danny above Maxim right now who like cuz I think the Hawks margin for error is pretty low with these picks and and what concerns me about Danny Wolf is some of the turnover issues um he didn’t shoot the ball well but he did shoot a lot of different threes um I’ve had people mentioned that Michigan schemed up shots to get him open like and that’s a lot of trust from a coach but it also means that he has the confidence to shoot out of movement out of screens uh flare screens like that’s not that’s very atypical for a sevenfooter he ran a ton of pick and roll he was essentially Michigan’s point guard um where do you think his like same question I posed with Derek Queen do you think that his offensive ability transcends the defensive questions and do you think that Atlanta in particular has the defensive infrastructure to take someone like him at 22 yeah that’s another great question and I I was also thinking in terms of who like best fits with Trey at this pick would the follow-up question to me is who is definitely part of this core with Trey at this point like there’s a lot of young prospects but like is is there a clear like is Dyson Dyson seems like he’s here is is Okongu like is he the guy is is it Reese like is is there a third a fourth part of this core that is considered like we are building around these guys so whoever we take should probably complement them because we don’t want to lose playing time for one of these guys right that was one other thought um but to to we can hit on in a minute maybe but with Danny Wolf um I can’t so I view him more as at this point like a point forward like a a power forward point forward type jay Kyle man made a great comp to Turkoo that I’d really liked as a play style where he’s a fringe sevenfooter who’s a point guard point forward point center whatever you want to call him but he probably is best guarding fours playing helpside defense at the rim on against fives he can kind of play either one but I’m actually impressed by his defense a little more than I thought I would be like I I think his footwork his defensive mobility his ability to guard some fours protect the rim at the five and rebound are are all things that I are are pluses checking off the boxes now he’s not a traditional center i think in in most lineups he’d probably be best kind of what he did at Michigan playing the four with a traditional rim protecting rim roller center like Vlad Golden that that they had at Michigan who’s also an NBA level second round prospect in this draft and I think that right there is the proof of concept that you know similar to Hedo and Dwight back in the day like be people are I don’t think people are going to be able to necessarily like contain a Danny Wolf pick and roll if he’s a 611 ball handler able to do all this at the next level but to me a lot of it comes down to trust and opportunity like is there a team that’s just going to give him the ball and and and really unleash him as an offensive engine and say like we’re going to build around your playmaking as a scoring creator hub and that’s a big question mark that’s a lot to ask and if he falls pretty late in the draft that opportunity and expectation might not be there but I do think he’s between the uh the the three-point versatility that you’ve talked about like it’s it’s just a very rare and I’d even say unique skill set for his size like the the idea that a 611 point forward or center can initiate your offense he’s hitting step back threes he’s hitting pull-up threes he’s hitting like all these different hook passes and no hook passes easily breaking down the defense and and able to efficiently create offense through those decision-m field that I hit on before consistently as Michigan’s main point guard main plan of attack is pick and roll Wolf and and Golden and that that’s a proof of concept to me that will translate to the next level as an offensive role like I I think he will can can do that very same role running pick and rolls for an offense at the next level but that being said I I agree that I don’t think he’s the most scalable prospect i I don’t think he’s a play finishing rim roller vertical lob threat in pick and roll next to Trey like Clint Capella has been that’s that’s just not his game at in in my opinion i I do think there’s better fits out there than uh Wolf to Atlanta like I I think I there’s probably better infrastructures where like or or really teams that just have a little less that kind of need a ball handler whereas right you know with with Trey there it’s it it not defeating the purpose but it might just be a little bit of overkill because you’re not really asking Trey to go spot up while Danny Wolf runs the offense necessarily very often so like that well maybe there’s like a pick and pop or something like that but but here’s some of the plays now where the it’s just super rare to see a a point forward who has this vision the playmaking feel and the touch to get these passes off and I’ve never really seen anything like it like at the very least I think like I’m not trying to project like he’s a clear future superstar but I I more so think that he has shown enough on both ends of the floor high two-way field high motor graband-go pace good rebounder good footwork uh good shooting touch like he he’s just shown enough where he has very few holes in his game very unique talent and sometimes I think the outlier tal talents are the ones that that end up popping at the NBA level that that aren’t the most traditional looking um creators out there and thi this is you know just a very special talent that I I’m hope a team takes a swing on him and gives him a real chance to kind of like be a part of running the offense and I I think he can very easily be a long-term starter scoring creator type where he is making your primary decisions running a lot of pick and rolls but he’s also a versatile scorer in other ways it’s not only pick and roll but that’s where he was um rated highly as but like via Cerebro on all those charts that I I had only four players ranked average or better at defense three-point shooting passing and the rest of the attributes and all those formulas and it was Cooper Flag VJ Edge Wolf and Max Schulga um he’s you know 14th in floor general skills he rates highly shooting and and literally all these categories um some stats to throw at you just for the heck of it the shooting profile you mentioned 33% on 50 pull-up threes 34% on 60 catch and shoot threes 37% on 30 guarded catch and shoot threes and the scoring via synergy play types was uh 1.1 points per possession on 43 putbacks 1.1 on 44 cuts 1.0 on 31 ISOs 1.0 0 on 66 spot-ups 0.94 on 33 possessions as the pick and roll role man so to me he’s just a he very few holes in his game like a plus defender great passer good shooter tight handle two-way field and um can can you know potentially be a a lead ball handler distributor for an offense who who can score and and create consistently so I think all those things give him offensive engine upside that a lot of players don’t have in this in this draft class that that make me just throw him I I’m I’m I have him ranked third on my big board because there isn’t a player that does all those things to me as well but I do view like um you know Trey Johnson and Kanipple I think as as probably the next best bets as those well Dylan Harper of course above them but and Cooper Flag above them but um those guys as kind of the scoring creator engine types and and Derek Queen in theory too just a little lower on the the shooting aspect there but um just guys that can be potential offensive engines and number one or number two or at least primary creators for your team where the threat of you scoring or creating or drawing a foul is there every play and you’re able to use that gravity to leverage offense for your team yeah Dirty Bird we haven’t talked about Yang but he was going to come up next after we touch on right now um I I noticed too on this on this graphic you made though Ryan you have like like Danny Wolf is essentially the the best passing center by this metric right um and then but I’m curious on how you feel about and and I think a lot of this is also like when you play with Vlad Golden right who was a great rim protector his like the the field goal percentage was was better for their opponents when Wolf was on the floor versus when he was off and I think you know of course he has some vertical limitations i also think it’d be it could be tougher to cover that much ground when you’re that big um and the reason I kind of put him right now in that same bucket in terms of like these offensively tilted guys who may have their drawbacks defensively is that I agree with you that like if Wolf hits his high-end outcome it’s more likely that he provides that outlier offensive impact that again offsets the defensive stuff i think for right now it’s a little bit different and I was also curious too like looking at the um the second graph you had right now’s like I would expect for someone to average 20 and 10 to rank a little bit higher in terms of P of PSP um is that mainly like an efficiency type of thing or or like why do you think he ended up like for again someone who who averaged the most double doubles in high major D1 basketball i was kind of expecting him to be a little bit higher um so I was the PSP would be um a combination of of the points per game but also the efficiency so it it it balances out um scoring and and field goal percentage essentially to to put them all on one comparable scale and I’d say the the part that separates or differentiates these two between Wol and Rayard at least on this graph is the passing of course like Wol is up here closer to the point guards in his playmaking feel while Rayod is on this on the left side of the chart where he’s closer to the play finishers like Golden who literally just rim rolls and Cal Runner who generally scores or hits the three or dunks or post ups versus creates for others so Rayod uh would be more of the play finisher side of things the scoring play finish uh first but he’s he’s more efficient on um on that as a scorer and he’s more more impactful as a defender uh via these charts as well um the uh slightly better at the rim which includes both sides of the floor but I’d say a nice little gap defensively as well that that puts him a little closer to the top so you know he he could at least at the college college level better defender good amount better scorer efficient wise and a good amount worse passer connective wise uh so how will that translate um I would say that uh why I’m higher on Wolf is that allaround aspect of the the the playmaking feel the fact that he can create a shot for himself or others consistently is what really that comes down to while also being a plus defender whereas Rayard projects to be a a fluid big man scorer who can like create his own shot and it it’s very it it’s very smooth looking and he he can score with ease kind of also running pick and rolls sometimes but not necessarily as a passer I think is the big difference to me um so you know the the defense and scoring and should make him an interesting prospect i’d say um I have him a higher in the second round like low low30s or early 30s okay and um I definitely want to touch on Hansen Yang because he’s a guy that like I spent a lot of time watching um and I’ll let this sort of mixtape play that I made for him i spent I spent hours watching Yang and not the T-Mac selfie to start oh yeah a lot of it is because like I think it’s very tough to evaluate guys that are in contexts like the CBA and you know there there are methods and and you know machine learning methods or you know even like data analytics methods to to compensate you know like to sort of normalize the competition phase and I think the CBA is at times it’s a joke league like some of the things I watched like I watched three guys run into each other if Yang rolled to the basket and he had to be tagged by a guard at any point like he had such a physical advantage that he won’t necessarily always have in the NBA and the other thing is the the CBA actually has quite a few like NBA size centers not necessarily NBA quality in terms of skill but like you know the guys who are almost too big to play in the NBA they all play in the CBA like Taco Falls is over there uh and then they have some other guys like um like even Kenny Loftton you know who’s a little bit too unorthodox for the NBA but what I think really has me brought in on Yang is the passing i think he can make every pass that a big man could ever be asked to do and I also think he makes like some legitimately star level passes um great passer out the post can do can perform high to low actions super easily i think he’s a screen dribble handoff hub nearly from day one he’s really intuitive with the way he flips his hips i love that play right there because like he goes for the handoff and then he’s able to like just instinctively know when to release the screen and I think a lot of the concerns I think start with the competition but it’s also about the defensive mobility and sort of just like his ability to hold up in space i thought in the combine I felt a little bit better about it i do think it’ll be a concern but I think guys like this who can give your point guards or your guards other ways to operate offensively with their screening ability with the dribble handoff hub ability they’re super invaluable like I mean Isaiah Hardinstein you know not to say he’s going to be a Hardenstein but you see Hardenstein’s impact and even like game five of the finals where his screening early on was getting JDub open the passing the complimentary passing where he catches it down low and there’s guys cutting and I can just see Yang fitting in so seamlessly as a passer with the Hawks and then he has a lot of postcoring upside and then you know of course the jumper is not bad at all for his size maybe not well results wise it isn’t but like the fact that he can make passes like that with his like one-handed skip passes out of the post directly into the shooter’s pocket flip passes over the back of his head like I’m a real buyer in the and how special the passing is and that’s what’s ultimately driving where I have them which I have them like top 15 um and I don’t really see another passing like I think Sorber is is a great passer as well but I don’t see another passing quality center in this um in this draft in particular and and he’s not without his drawbacks like I think his vertical athleticism is really underwhelming for his size we’re talking about someone who’s 71 he’s got like a 72 and a half wingspan he got he had some very embarrassing block shots like embarrassing lack of athleticism where he’d get hung on the rim or a guy who was 12 six six inches shorter would block his shot um but I think he just provides so much value as a passer i love his touch around the rim and and so I would I would be more than happy if the Hawks took him at 22 just because I think the passing is so special and I think that there are guys but with that being said I think there are guys with better physical tools or better scoring profiles that can at least approximate a little bit of the passing impact like I think like like a guy like Sorber or or or even a not like cockbr but I guess more so a guy like even Amari Williams for Kentucky like I wouldn’t take him that early but like there are guys in this draft who are also great passers so where did you end up on Yang how concerned are you with the competition and and like from what you’ve seen like what do you think about the mobility yeah Amari Williams a good shot too in the second round a little I I like him a lot i’m a little higher on him i actually have them ranked fairly similar in uh as kind of these big playmakers late in the draft i I I’m a little lower lower on Ying like in the 30s and then um have have uh have him not not too far behind but he is a guy that I actually agree that a great great passer would would not be against the Magic looking at him 25 feels a little early like I’d probably rather go with um Cockr Bunner or even a Golden um but I think Rayod and Yang are are in the mix for bigs in that range starting in in the mid 20s or early 30s for sure and you hit it with Yang’s passing i mean his vision is his playmaking field is incredible for that size like he is you know a sevenfooter that can pass and handle like that like that’s a very rare combination yeah the the tape itself it’s it’s tough to kind of view the competition how that’s going to translate but like certain things you you know generally translate until you you see them play out like can he dribble against an NBA defense can he can he make those passes against an NBA defense we shall see but I I think the passing and the feel is a natural skill that translates to every level it’s it’s you know the creativity of the handle will will that translate if if and similar questions about a Danny Wolf and concerns like will if you if you get like a a a a smaller but active defender un underneath you kind of like an Aaron Aaron Gordon had effective defense against a Kevin Durant or Carl Anthony Towns where it’s just a a a pesk right underneath you and you can’t do anything about it that’s something where it’s if you take away his handle can he still be this passer this creator that’s that’s a question mark but I think the the skills themselves definitely at the at this point in the draft were worth a swing like it’s it’s a rare combination and and the defense is enough to intrigue you with that length as a rim protector where you can project two-way impact like if you can if you can be a plus defender for your position and show me one proven skill that gives me faith that you can develop the other skills a little bit that that’s really what I need to see later in the draft for potential two-way impact like I’d love for it to be a bankable two-way skill set where it’s like I can I’m I’m going to defend and hit that three no matter what and then I might also do these other things down the road that’d be great too that that’d be nice but not every player brings that DN3 floor that that a lot of that a lot of uh teams probably target and want in the draft to try to help them immediately is is someone who can come in and just defend and shoot a little bit and plug and play and then if you have any potential on the ball down the road great we’ll try to fine-tune that opportunity as well um so you know Yang shows that with the defense and then you know the handle and the playmaking so you you have enough there to kind of round out a two-way role i I believe where not every player has to be able to dribble pass and shoot and play finish and and defend but like you want as many of those as possible so if if if you know he can defend and dribble and pass then you you probably have to balance the floor with someone who brings more shooting more defense more scoring versatility or defensive versatility whatever kind of balances out um you know his pros and cons on on the court yeah makes sense and I I think I definitely bank on the passing to translate it’s it’s more so about like to your point like can he make those same types of passes against NBA speed because the CBA is a very slow league as well right um and it’s one of those guys where like you you’ll I think you’ll know better once you bring it in for a workout so that’s I was I was happy to see the Hawks were able to get him to work out they were one of six or seven teams that sent a scout specifically to China just to look at him and so I think they’re they’re 100% interested um I just think they’re probably trying to evaluate you know same questions we’re asking like what does this look like in an NBA context i think the passing is special enough that I would make that bet the only guys at 22 that I would take Yang over um would probably or that I wouldn’t that I would take over Yang I mean would probably be Caulkrunner um and it also depends on what we do at 13 ideally I would want to go wing at 13 and then big at 22 unless CNB or Sorber is on the board at 13 then I’d go with the wing um so I’m I’m curious as well because while the Hawks I think with the Bane trade quite as it stands right now Orlando’s decisively ahead of of Atlanta right but I do think they’re probably approaching the draft in a somewhat similar fashion in terms of like we would prefer guys who could help us win this season as opposed to like long-term developmental bets doesn’t and also you know you guys haven’t necessarily relied upon the young guys in your rotation anyways i mean Jet Howard hasn’t got a lot of burn outside of Anthony Black like there hasn’t been a recent Orlando Magic draft pick outside like Fron and Paulo that has played like those consequential minutes and so from from your perspective it’s really a two-parter when you’re looking for someone for Orlando and like for a guy who could contribute are you looking for guys who have already played and like I’m thinking about like the concept of like scaling down versus scaling up like for example Walter Clayton Jr who I would love for you all is scaling down his role and we’ve seen him be effective off the ball like running off handoffs or as opposed to someone like I guess for the Hawks I know Sengu would need to scale up to get to his ideal outcome for Atlanta and so when you’re thinking about guys for Orlando you know and which I think is also applicable to Atlanta as well are you looking for guys who are scaling up or scaling down do you have any like general thoughts on that yeah that that’s a a kind of a a good point there where I I I do think they’re on slightly different timelines i think Orlando is is like with the Desmond Bane trade like they have said we are trying to contend this year and the Hawks are back more so trying to rebuild that playoff competitor and and then win now compete make the playoffs and continue to ascend but still probably where Orlando maybe was before the trade i think just not quite at that level so I would all that is to say I would still maybe target someone with a little bit of upside for Atlanta that that can help now but also can help like projects to really help three years down the road around this young core with everyone else um but you know guys like Calrunner fit both situations where like you you can you he’s a guy who could immediately contribute because of his experience his age his defensive instincts his his smarts on the offensive side the screening just all the little things he does well with the potential of a three-point shot and there’s a there’s a chance that just kind of develops and improves all around as he get reaches his potential it might not be some crazy upside as a star but like his two-way impact should just continually rise and while he while contributing immediately so that’s a guy that fits most teams but especially fits these two teams and their needs very well and you know with the 23 and the 25 pick pretty good chance he’s going at one of those slots if he’s not gone already just based on what we’re talking about i I view him as you know the I I like Danny Wolf and Walter Clayton for Orlando but like he’s right there like he’s probably third on my target list at 25 with you know a Javon Javon Small Cedric Coward as well in that mix um some other names uh Will Riley Scion James could be there for you guys there just to take some some other swings on guys that that I like in that range i could see I feel like Atlanta can go in a lot of different directions here be like there isn’t like a clear answer necessarily for them but I I do think going upside is is at least with one of the picks like maybe not both like you you do have two picks the you have a lottery pick maybe go a little more upside on the lottery and a and a guy that can contribute right away with 25 because y is definitely where the league has trended in general as well is teams targeting good basketball players you know a Tristan Dilva comes to mind for Orlando who’s a guy that like played well when given the opportunity like could showed he could score and step in as a starter but when the full team’s healthy there there isn’t quite enough minutes to go around because coach Mosley’s trying to win the Magic are trying to win they’re they’re going to play a Gary Harris 20 minutes because he’s proven time and time again he’s going to defend know where to be hit the open three not be afraid to at least shoot the open three and fill his role and accept it whereas a young guy might not know where to be might not defend as well might take some questionable shots questionable decisions and I think that’s why we saw him get the call playing minutes wise over a Jet or a Dilva as the playoffs went on but you know those are guys that I think Orlando wants to to carve out minutes for and build a more of a rotation for and you know Anthony Black definitely has kind of earned more of a a real role in the rotation with with Suggs France Paulo Bane and probably Wendell at center so with those five I just said the starting lineup’s looking pretty much set they have Anthony Black they have Dilva and Isaac who I expect to kind of round out that top eight and if if he stays Goa Betaz is there at backup center a question mark would be do they go out try to target a Cal Brener bring in a backup center with Cal Brener for now they they bring Mo Vagner back maybe on a on a cheaper deal who a after um they’re probably going to have to decline his team option like they did with Gary Gary Harris and Cory Joseph but he’s he’s coming off an injury he’ll probably take a team friendly deal for like a a one-year team friendly for approve yourself deal kind of thing i I I expect that to kind of happen but um he he could be hurt for a little while still so you know that’s something where a rookie like Hal Brener who’s good enough to maybe play some spot minutes as a backup five if Isaac can’t handle it full-time it makes a lot of sense for Orlando another need could be Cedric Coward most teams a D and three wing like Cedric Howard or Carter Bryant Jason Richardson where um you know some bigger than others there but um you teams can’t have enough players that could defend hit the open three and bring some scoring versatility able to get a bucket you just can’t have enough of those guys um so that that’s the range where you know they they could kind of use a backup point guard or some point playmaker type to to really set up all of the scores um that that is something I’m questioning and I think Orlando is going to wait on till the trade deadline to do is Tim Leggler even said it yesterday like huge move loves the fit with Desmond Bane but he even he still thinks the team needs a point guard and I’m just not exactly sure yet like I I kind of think it could look closer to like a Warriors style offense or a Boston Celtics style offense where you have all these stars out there that are natural high field playmaker connector types that the the the the scoring gravity the shooting gravity they’re they’re you know feel for the game is kind of enough to already create good offense consistently by playing through them as scorers and letting them create out of that so that’s something I I I’m tempted to see that’s where I would go like that’s why I like Danny Wolf as like a point center type where you can still play your core four and maybe if you can maintain that elite defense and unlock Danny as like a point center type that could be interesting maybe he’s more of like a spot center but backup power forward to run the bench offense with a with a play finisher at the five type that could be interesting um but you know a point guard that can shoot and play make and a natural point guard a D and three wing or a D and three center with a little scoring versatility would be the the three big targets for Orlando and probably you know any team like I think you know you guys could you can never have you could probably use a third guard that you you trust long term maybe a big wing and I really like the front court there’s just a lot of different forwards and and bigs that you know would I I think all kind of complement each other as long as they they run the floor defend you know bring the versatility like rea last year I thought um so I I like where they’re at and um I I think if if I were you know Atlanta like like we’ve talked about take maybe take a swing on one of these front court guys at 13 that has a little upside that can contribute right away and then at 25 I bet you could find there there’s about 10 or 20 guys that could be considered win now good rotation players that you could just kind of plug and play into the lineup you mentioned like a Rashir Fleming or you know all these guys so you know there there’s definitely good options and it’s it’s nice for Atlanta to kind of have both options on the table to be able to go upside go win now maybe package both for a specific target or or guy they really love so you know it’s it’s fun on draft night when you got options for sure and I think you guys have been front of mind for me since the Bane trade because I mean just from a cap perspective well for correct me if I’m wrong I don’t believe you guys have paid the tax before right or at least not recently yeah no I I don’t know if they ever have but definitely not recently so this is there’s some there’s some financial decisions to be made because Paulo’s extension is coming up so right now he’s at what 9% that’ll jump up to and he might make if he makes all NBA that’s going to be the big X factor because that could kind of throw off Orlando’s plans which is kind of silly rule that he could be like a top 15 player but his team gets hurt because of it same with Evan Mobley and the Deepo award i think Zach Low had that take it’s a great take like why are we punishing teams for finding the right the like somehow a small market team targeted the right player who’s the best defender in the world and now they can’t build a championship team around him because they they can’t afford to it’s like and it’s only because of the award that made that happen it’s like why why is that the setup there should be some sort of incentive for that that award to celebrate and celebrate them and maybe not have it hurt the cap as much but that’s a to be determined with Paulo and the award and I think what you’re getting at here is that from my point of view Suggs having a descending deal is really key to the Magic’s you know future cap here like he Suggs is Suggs and Bane are both around 35 million but Suggs goes down and Bane goes up so they still they stay relatively the same on average throughout the deal where you know Suggs will be down at 25 descending and Bane will be up to 45 ascending by the end of it but yearbyear you’re looking at kind of the same cap hit between them and I think Orlando can definitely afford that until the Paulo Max and we’ll see if it becomes a super max and if they can afford all four but you know what’s what’s interesting is all all the word coming out of Orlando is that the the DVOS family is fully willing to pay whatever it costs for this team so we will see like we if they’re willing to go above the first apron let alone the second apron i mean shoot they’re they’re really committed to winning and we just haven’t necessarily seen them do that but I don’t know if they’ve really had the opportunity to do it either they they were fine with paying Rashard Lewis all that money back in the day and it’s not like it that clearly worked out for what the team needed and it’s not like it came back to haunt them or anything i don’t think they went over the tax to do it but you know they they quote unquote overpaid to do it um so we could see the same thing here where um I I do think they might have to you know maneuver some guys around it’s going to be tough to add more players to the roster but right now is the time to do it so you might be able to package say Isaac or Goa or Jet and or any of those guys um with the 25th pick with two seconds they still have to maybe get one more guard that win now guards somewhere around the league a little depth instead of going the rookie route but um they have the 25th and two seconds i kind of expect them to come out of it with one rookie who’s probably not going to get much playing time with this rotation but you know somebody like a Cal Brener could play some spot minutes now and a lot of minutes later so that that’s where you know the the pick still has value especially now that the the dust is settled you have four stars on on these max deals and you pretty much need as many good rookies as you can to fill out the rotation with the way the the CBA is set up yeah so what I’m really intrigued with is I thought especially in the playin game against Atlanta Wendell was huge right and when he’s playing at his best you know he’s a he’s a glass cleaner who could stretch the floor and is a positive defender very very rare archetype then you had Mo Wagner who was a legitimate sixman of the year candidate before he ended up having his injury and then there’s Goa who’s also a very very service of big and I think that if the books weren’t so tight then I would I would say it makes perfect sense to retain Goa you know as well and Ji as well but if I was Orlando I think I to your point I’d be looking to maybe package Ji Goa in a pick to bring in a scoring guard but I’m from my selfish Hawks perspective I’m I would approach Orlando and say “We can give you some cap relief we can absorb one of those guys.” Now I think Goa is on a steel of a contract is he at 8 million I believe a year which is ridiculous for the amount of production he has and so if it came down like if you were the Magic Front Office and you’re looking at okay we’re we’re going to be playing Jonathan Isaac 7% of the cap go about 5% is it worth getting like would you be interested at at all in getting off those guys without retaining or bringing back another player because I would really want to see um I’m I’m I’m trying to see who I can scrape away from other teams and I think that you guys are in that financial situation but do you you think it’s more likely that they end up packaging those guys to bring in another player yeah it the only reason it’d be tough to just not get another player back is is what I was getting at at the end there is that they they just don’t have many moves left um kind of to make around these guys where like they they need bodies to fill out the rotation I think and if you you know you you sell off a Goa or an Isaac for a pick and some salary relief you you do get that asset back that you kind of just lost in in the other deal or at least one of them but Mhm um you know you’re just losing a body and they Mo Vagner’s already kind of hurt and Wendell and Goa and Isaac are all kind of injuryprone so the depth of those bigs is kind of one of the advantages in the first place i don’t I don’t think they’re trying to just shed salary yet but you know so let’s say they could very well do it with one of the big men like they they they could very well decide like we we’re just going to move on and cut our losses from one of these guys to clear the room like that’s not out of the question especially if they you know they Wendell is pretty much set if they end up bringing Mo Vagner back like wave the team option but bring him back on a team friendly you have your two centers and you know may maybe you try to get some value for Goa that way because he is on a a really good value deal of only 8 million for a high high defensive um defensive anchor playmaker type isaac is good value when he’s healthy he he just seems to be on a minutes restriction maybe for the rest of his career i’m not exactly sure but he only plays about 15 20 minutes a game but still brings um he still brings a lot of defensive impact it’s he he gained some some weight this sum this last summer where it he almost um became a little less mobile from it and lost a little bit of that versatility so that’ll be interesting to see if he kind of reverts back to his old kind of physique when it comes to his workout and conditioning and all that um so uh I could definitely see them I I think the likelier option is they try to package one big and maybe Jet and maybe some of these picks this year um for for some help on the bench and I think it would be more like either a guard or a wing because of all the gluttony of bigs they already kind of have um so I could definitely see them kind of packaging those guys for maybe a six-man guard or a a big wing off the bench uh to kind of just bring some DN3 kind of role um because I don’t really think the the kind of unicorn center that they would want is really out there or that they’re going to get them get him for just that package so it’d probably be more of uh let’s let’s try to flip like two of these guys for one more proven offense role player to really really help make sure the like the the wheels are are greased on this offense and there’s no like double down on some more spacing uh for this offense I think is is what would be left in play um but they could just draft a 25 a rookie as well and and and kind of hold him out so I guess we’ll see but I I I do think they they would lean towards one more proven rotation player is where I expect them to go this summer at at this point makes sense do you have a a favorite target for that type of package whether it’s a scoring guard or a wing off the bench yeah um most of them are kind of the same guards as before but now we kind of know the shooting is taken care of and we we don’t necessarily have to just have a just a shooter but I I think like a for me personally like uh more so a a guard a natural playmaking point guard that can hit the pull up three I think is still you know um good to have kind of a third guard like at the moment it would be Suggs Bane and Anthony Black so in in something of a back court for this team um so you know Black is more of like a tall point forward type if you’re gonna pair someone with him off the bench maybe it’s more of like a just a traditional point guard that that can hit the open three i mean Chris Paul is like a really fun name that’s just flying around like that’s more of like like just a classic like he he’ll fix your offense for a good 50 win offensive team for for a season even though he’s getting up there in years he’s still just making teams better every stop he gets including the Spurs this year but some names uh you know Malik Monk is awesome i don’t think I don’t know if that’s enough to get him but that that that’d be an awesome fit just a a playmaking handoff hub not not quite a natural point guard but like just another shooter that can kind of slide right into this system as a super six-man type um off the bench um let’s see i mean we again I don’t know if it’s enough to get like a Colin Ston but that’s another like fun rotation player who’s probably more of a starter proven starter but if he could be a six-man for this team that would be a pretty killer six-man to have um like a a starter level guard off the bench um but you know there there’s a lot of names i don’t think it’s enough for Anthony Simons that was the big target uh before all the trade rumors i don’t think that package is is is enough for someone like that um but yeah I mean there there’s a lot of proven guards around the league and at the end of the day I I think they like this this roster they could very well do nothing and just take a rookie um but and and kind of be set for next season and just bring the rest of the guys back but I do kind of think there’s there’s one more move for like a proven guard like one of these guys uh that we mentioned sounds good i think I would I would love Sexon for you guys i think he makes a lot of sense yeah that’d be fun um he’s even something that I think like I floated around for the Hawks using that trade exception as well um yeah I think you guys aren’t done either and I think like as it stands right now I’d say Orlando has a pretty good chance to be a top four team i think if they can find a little bit more scoring punch off the bench now you’re talking about pressing the Eastern Conference Finals i still think that even with the Bane trade there does need to be a little bit of a mentality shift with Paulo for me to feel really comfortable and it’s not that I think he needs to drastically change the way he plays but just more so you know embracing some of the screen setting ability you know playing out of the short role instead of necessarily having to play the way that he I feel like he almost had to because of the offensive situation right i mean like when you have poor spacing uh teams can shrink the floor on the pick and roll so a lot of those times where he’s catching and turning or facing up from the post it’s because it’s almost it’s almost out of necessity right because of the way the offense is structured and you know as his efficiency wasn’t great on those play types I mean the alternative is kicking out the KCP who you know didn’t have the best years to the ball so I’m excited to see how Apollo’s game is impacted by this because I think you could get a really fun twoman game with him and Bane i think Bane’s grown so much as a tertiary creator in the time that he played without Jaw and honestly it came when it came down to this trade like yeah I mean it’s four first but at the same time I don’t think you get a better fit at shooting guard for this Orlando team outside of Anthony Edwards or Deon Booker and both of those guys will be consequentially more expensive and so I I absolutely love the trade for you all um I think it does launch you up a a tier or two i think that there there there needs to be a little bit more work done to shore up the bench rotation and and maybe be a little bit less defensively tilted because I mean as dominating as a defense was like they were also stopping themselves from scoring points and I think you know like you don’t want to be the Rockets in the playoffs where you’re like overly relying on defensive playmaking and offensive rebounding to shore up your half court offense right like there has to be a balance i think they’re getting closer to that balance and then as long as you can keep those guys on the rotation that like give you those different types of looks you guys will be very dangerous so um just for my last question before we end up wrapping up I’m curious like where do you personally feel about like their potential standing in the East i think also you guys are the first of many Eastern Conference teams that I think are going to like start this arms race because once Boston went down when Jason Tatum unfortunately had that Achilles injury with the way that Cleveland fell out the playoffs the fact that they’re going to have to pay Evan Moy so much those are the two biggest contenders in the East they’re going to be very limited by salary constraints or Jason Tatum’s injury there is a there’s almost like a crack in the in the window or a crack in the door where I feel like a lot of Eastern Conference teams are going to look at um so I guess a two-parter where do you think you guys will stack up the rest of the East and is there any other teams you think could make those big splashing moves me personally I think Miami will try and get KD now but I’m curious on how you feel about Orlando standing going into the 26 2026 season that’d be real fun can’t wait to see where KD ends up but the the magic already man like I I I’ve been saying I I already thought they were kind of a top four East team and and top two defense top four defense in the NBA for two years running where the first the the year before last everything went right and the and last year everything went wrong and they fall somewhere in between and that was before the Bane trade i I think the offense could see a total overhaul like maybe there’s a lot more of a a Warriors type of delay handoff action now between Paulo and Bane or Suggs where you got Bane and Suggs running around the perimeter using that shooting gravity off of kind of the playmaking of of of Paulo where it’s a handoff or a post up and a kickout where maybe Bane is just treated as like the the primary option is let’s get Bane an open three-point shot at at however we can and whatever play type we can maybe that that like outlet of his shooting gravity is enough to really balance out the rest of the offense but obviously Paulo’s still the guy and Fran is still like the 1B so that’ll be an interesting wrinkle of I do think Paulo and Fron will do the initiating but I would love for the offensive overhaul to be a lot more plays to just be based around like let’s find Bane for a three-point shot running use that shooting gravity to keep the defenses honest and have him have defenses have to scramble for him at all times and make sure we’re maximizing that gravity and that in turn will just open up the floor for everyone else like I I think we’re right there with anyone in the East to that point like that I I agree that you know the Celtics looked like the the juggernaut of the perfected five out basketball and then suddenly it’s all over for a minute or at least there there’s a a delay i I think the if they do nothing I think the Celtics will still be a contender next year that’s how great they are at what they do like an elite defense with like four stars instead of five like you know they they’ll be in the hunt they might they just won’t be the overwhelming favorite like they were before but like the Knicks proved that they allin trade for for Bridges and and then the Towns flip has you know worked enough we’ll see if they keep Towns now but you know that that worked enough to get them to the conference finals same with Pascal Seakum to the Pacers you know that that big move trade-off and now now we got Bane to the Magic and that’s the big move paying off and I was thinking about it earlier the Knicks were willing to go all in around like a 30-year-old Jaylen Brunson the Magic are going all in around a 22-year-old Paulo Benero who like I think most would view as more of a superstar trajectory than Brunson and no one would kill the Knicks for that other than the the big the amount of the picks but it’s the Knicks no one cares if they’re going all in like everyone wants them to be relevant that’s what the Magic are doing too and I think some critics kind of just like assume the worst that like oh why why is this team going all in like what do they see it’s like they see every box of a contender being checked except for the three-point shooting and they just added a top five three-point shooter who doesn’t hurt the defense the playmaking any of that so to me they they already rank highly as in in almost every contender trait except for this three-point shooting bane the the ripple down effect of his pull-up shooting and that gravity should really help the team a lot and and also Suggs returning to a secondary role where he’s been a lights out because that’s another key too is they’re they’re both capable pull-up shooters but Suggs is much worse percentage-wise and both of them are much better catch and shoot corner three guys than above the break pull-up three guys so playing off of of Paulo and Fron and Black driving kicks will create a 40% shooter on six seven eight threes a game instead of you know 30% above the break pull-ups when they’re asked to run the offense and I think just the balance of having all three or four of these guys just helps them all in so many ways it just makes their life easier it it lessens the burden and usage it it creates you know more space more balance uh more depth you you we could see two of them on the court at any given time p maybe they’re staggered like you would have like a point guard or or one one or two stars would stagger i mean they have three or four so why not have why would you go an all five bench lineup if you have three or four stars making 30 million a year like you could probably build lineups different lineups against different teams as well so a lot of cool matchup options and depth options for the coaches i still think if they if they were a top four team East team with a top two defense before the trade I think they took one more step up and are officially knocking on the door ascending towards contending like not not expecting a championship tomorrow but like expecting to contend and compete with everyone else now for for the foreseeable future in the playoffs and I I I mean how how many teams would I rank above them like not not a ton like as clear-cut favorites like I think they’re right in that group with with the Pacers the Cavs the the Knicks the Celtics the Bucks i think the Magic are right there especially regular season wise where the defense pays off and they they should be a little hungry to win a few more games this year after all that last year so like that that I think is is where we could see the two seed with his second best defense last year like I wouldn’t be surprised at all and you know worst case is the injuries hit again and um you know if if Bane’s shooting somehow just for totally disappears there is a what if of what now but that that’s a pretty big what if where we have a 5-year sample size of of Bane’s proven shooting so I think that’s ultimately where the calculated risk of it all the big bet that the Magic made on themselves is we’re creating open threes and we’re adding the best three-point shooter in the league not named Steph Curry arguably and he plays defense like this this is just a match made in heaven a bet worth making so they they took the gamble on themselves and um you know I I think it’s enough it’s going to be a push they now have a third or fourth star they have multiple alldefensive prospects like we could go on about all the things they do well and and some of the flaws they have to deal with but uh yeah I I think they’re they’re ready to make some noise in the playoff next year and the goal should be win one playoff series and ideally you know make win a couple make a run make a conference finals and really get on the stage big sage get that experience and uh to answer your other question another team in the East that might jump on the idea that the Boston Celtics are hurt or beat up a little bit next year and maybe make a trade i mean who knows what the Bucks are going to do with Giannis like it seems like they’re they’re holding on to Giannis and he seems to be happy enough forever there maybe they flip Dame again i I don’t know if it’s too soon for that but um you know if if Giannis is is saying the Bucks are always a possibility to make a big move a big swing of a trade for someone um but they’re already kind of in that tier i think the Pistons are definitely going to be back and and just as good next year so they’re a team to keep an eye on if if they have enough assets to make a big move that could be interesting where they could easily jump right up into this this group the Heat are good shot for KD and the and the Hawks are right there i mean the Raptors want to contend they want to be good so like we they might they might try like they’re collecting a lot of good players so we’ll we’ll see if they make that leap i think I think the Raptors are a good like team of of all the teams like ranked nine or 10 below i think the Raptors would uh the Sixers are also trying to be good but the the Raptors are another one where um I I could see them making a win now trade uh to try to like get just be competitive they they keep collecting these guys like they they just added Ingram for that same reason they traded a pick for Potal when they could have been rebuilding so you know they they seem to be intent on uh competing as much as they can and and the Bulls are interesting i don’t really I don’t see the Bulls as much of a big trade target this year but um you know the I’d say the Raptors the Heat uh this the Sixers are on the table but I think that their their big trade would be around this third pick that they seem to be interested in in moving around maybe um so we’ll we’ll see what happens i I’ll go with uh probably the Raptors as my my team is uh the random sleeping team that might make a big trade try to make some noise but if the Pistons add like another big talent that’s one that that’s another one where if they could jump straight to contending if they kind of find the right mix of talent to add to that core yeah I think they we saw it in the playoffs with them but like they just had too many guys relying on Cade it felt like you know of course you know Beasley and Tim Hardway provided some much neededed shooting but you know Tobias is he’s never really been able to reliably scale up and he’s a little bit older in his career some of the half court offense numbers with both Assar and Dur on the floor weren’t great so they’ve got a number of moves I think they could make to take that leap i think for Hawks fans a lot of us feel like you know we should be making that same type of move or like we should be trying to be very aggressive and I don’t think we’re necessarily in that same position first off but also I think the guys that we could trade for whether it be a KD uh whoever else it may be uh we don’t have enough insulation around those guys to make it work and so I would I would caution Hawks fans you know be a little bit patient we have we’re in a very good position relative to our expectations i mean we we’ve got a team with a very young promising core under 25 you got two draft picks you’ve got about 40 million under the cap um you got $25 million trade exception right and our window just isn’t there yet just like Dirty Bird just said and it would be a it would be a hasty move i think if you’re going to do an all-in move you first need to prove to Trey that um you’re building a more cohesive roster and then you guys able to like I think pushing for the six seed would be great the way that I again I feel like the East is going to be an arms race so I would temper the expectations and like not tie it directly to the seed although the Hawks probably we need to we need to win at least 45 games I think to take that next like okay that then the the ownership of the front office could say okay maybe this team’s ready for the next step the East is not going to be easy by any means and I think honestly it may be even more competitive than the West just with the the sort of like um the vacuum that the that the Celtics have left and I think to your point you know teams like the Raptors who finished out the playin they’re looking to contend miami is looking to contend the Sixers want to be back in a big way i don’t think there’s going to be a lot of teams that are selling in the east i think if you’re going to get any teams that are selling they’ll be in the West so we may see a little bit of a shift in the balance of power um I’m rooting for you all just because I’m really interested to see how it looks i think there’s some really interesting things they can do offensively um hopefully if you guys do end up you know moving on from a big you know I’m more than happy to accommodate them down in Atlanta um but Ryan appreciate you so much i appreciate all the insights from the data visualizations your opinions on the big some insights on the Magic and the East in general uh definitely want to make sure people know where to find you so so make sure to plug anything you’re working on anywhere they can find you you know what David i appreciate you having me on today talking Lil Hawks Little Magic Draft always always fun talking hoops uh beyond the arcade on socials Twitter YouTube Substack can find my NBA draft guide just for the Orlando Magic team centric guide just released on the Swiss Theory website and uh check out the podcast Learning Basketball just chopped it up with David Steele about the Desmond Bane trade went out yesterday it was a lot of fun hey appreciate it always always cool a magic legend always fun talking hoops uh with him especially just getting to pick his brain just you know calling Magic Games all the all these years super cool opportunity uh so check out the the Learning Basketball Pod Spotify Apple YouTube all that stuff so appreciate you uh having me on today David it’s a lot of fun of course thank you for taking the time and for everyone who watched it live thank you so much for engaging in the chat i’ll also upload this to my podcast feed so you’ll be able to watch it a little bit after that um yeah man appreciate you guys hope you have a great rest of your day ryan thank you again

The Atlanta Hawks Film Room Podcast: a Hawks-centric series hosted by David Lee that brings fans from opposing teams to breakdown film and talk through the numbers that defined each and every game.

Episode 52 is a deep dive into some of the most prominent bigs in the 2025 draft class. Alongside special guest Ryan (@BeyondTheRk), we discussed the most statistically dominant bigs, which guys have a chance to be so good offensively that they supersede their defensive concerns, the best traditional bigs in the class and how Atlanta can appropriately value the market at 13 & 22.

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